The point that I was trying to stick with throughout my answer was that finding God is something that you have to do on your own. There is no roadmap that everyone will interpret in the same manner. It is different for everyone. My way worked for me, that doesn't mean that it will work for you or Lee. I was just trying to point out a few basic steps that I felt were important to my finding the way to God, and I thought those would be useful to others.
The only true "roadmap" is the bible. Look there for answers, but don't expect to find them quickly. It has taken me years, and while many of my questions have been answered, more questions have been created along the way.
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The problem I have is that I've read -- and studied -- the Bible and other major works of religious literature, and have yet to feel "the spirit" from any of them.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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After Carl Sagan died, fundamentalist Christians started a rumor that he had had a deathbed conversion to Christianity. In response, his widow released a statement that no such conversion had taken place, because "Carl didn't want to believe, he wanted to KNOW."
Tom seems to want to know also. Perhaps that's why he calls himself agnostic, rather than atheist.
I think it's a fundamental human trait to want to understand things. Personally, I find this adequate "proof" that man invented god, instead of the other way around. That is, people assign reasons for how things happen, and those reasons stand until we find a better explanation. "God" has satisfied a lot of people, for a long time. But during that time, the concept of god has evolved.
Even in the Bible, god was plural (and in some cases feminine) in the beginning. The God of Abraham and Moses didn't claim to be the only god, he only claimed that he was the only one that should be worshipped (in particular by the hebrews; there was no stipulation that pharoah, for example, should have switched gods).
Likewise, the old testament god was cranky and vindictive, but suddenly god grew up and became loving and even tempered in the new testament.
Today, more and more the bible is providing reasons to QUESTION the existence of God, rather than proof that "He" exists. Go to alt.atheism and ask what caused them to lose their belief in God and many of them will say "I read the Bible." For others, biblical religion makes less and less sense, so traditionally non-evangelical religions, such as Hinduism and various pagan religions, especially Wicca, are found to be more satisfying to people who can't reconcile the bible with reality.
I've done the same thing Tom is doing. I have tried to "let God in" and change my beliefs. The difference is that since I lack belief, I call myself an atheist.
A question that comes up is this chicken and egg scenario, regarding belief. God will give you the "spirit" if you truly beleive, but you must beleive first. For someone who doesn't believe, but wants to know, what can you do to satisfy this requirement?
Atheists are often accused of "not wanting to believe" or "rejecting God," but you'll find that most of us aren't afraid of the truth, whatever that is. If God exists, I'd like to know it. Just as I'd like to know if there is life on other planets. It isn't likely to change my life dramatically on a day to day basis, but it would satisfy my curiosity.
I'm not asking for a bona fide miracle, or even direct communication. If there is a God who wants me to believe, all he has to do is flip that binary switch in my mind that defines belief. I call it the "God Bit." If I believed, then all the "evidence" that people point to: the beauty of life, the miracle of procreation, the elegance of natural laws, etc. would seem like proof, and that would be all it takes. I can't imagine a more honest and open position to offer God in return for this feeling than simply to be willing to allow my belief to be changed.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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LoL.. sorry Tom. It's a really really bumpy ride.
I've been a Christian from the time I was a child, but it wasn't until I was older that I truly understood. My parents took us all to church and in part out of tradition and in part out of the need to teach morals and in part out of their love for God.
When we got older, the choice to go or not go was ours. I had found so much great fellowship and even some not so great fellowship at church. As I grew in my faith I learned what made ME tick and learned that my faith was seperate from church. Church was a great place to go to learn and be with others that had the same love I did, but it wasn't where I left my faith when I walked out those doors.
I'll do the same thing for my daughter. I'll raise her as well as I can, and hopefully she'll find her own path and do what's best for her. Frankly it frightens me the kind of world we live in. More people are lost than ever before and I am not the type to shove anything down anyone's throat. I certain wouldn't do it to you either Tom. It's just not my nature and not how I was raised.
There is 'proof' if you want to call it that from history that many of the events in the old testament occurred and there is 'proof' that Jesus existed. There is the Bible too, but many people don't consider it 'proof' since it was written and then translated and translated and translated by fallable man. Yet, I still see the Bible as a valid and important work that should be followed. Think about it, all the advice given in the new testament (even if you take out Jesus' miracles heaven forbid) are about being good, kind and generous to people. Even the Ten Commandments from the Bible aren't asking people to do the impossible. Don't kill. Don't cheat on your spouse etc.
Proof is there, but I couldn't possibly show it to you in any way that I think you would accept. There are miracles all the time, but I don't think we should expect the Walls of Jericho or the raising of the dead in any earth shattering way... just yet. Many believe we are approaching Armageddon. I'd like to think we aren't.
There was a story on that miracles show I told you about that was amazing. A pregnant woman was in distress and they induced her baby early because they couldn't find signs of a heart beat. They delivered the baby and worked to revive her but could not get anything despite their best efforts. The mother and grandmother were told the baby was dead and that they could have time with her. They put the baby in the arms of the mother and still there was no stirring of the baby. Forty-five minutes went by and suddenly the baby started to breathe in the mother's arms. They were then told the baby would probably be brain-damaged from going so long without oxygen to her system. The little girl is three years old now and doing just fine. She's bright and agile and very much alive.
Maybe that's a story that you could say is coincidence too. There is no proof that it was a miracle other than science has no explanation for how it could have happened. I'm sure curiosity is just grinding into their very being. I'm the curious type too, but I think this is definetly a miracle.
Tom, if you really are curious and you mean it, I would be glad to talk to you more. I just don't want to step on your toes at all or on anyone elses.
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Faith is a choice. Once you have chosen to believe, then you see a thousand signs of the spirit that enlivens, you see a thousand blessings, a thousand quirky coincidences and sometimes if you are truly fortunate, you can feel the universe move. To choose faith takes courage.
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Glenn, reading the Bible and understanding it are two completely different things. I think that is something people tend to overlook.
Things like 'suffer a witch' is a mistranslation and means 'suffer a poisoner'. Two very different things and sadly people died over this poor translating.
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My question is, is there really a Lee M? It almost seems a demonstration of some quote about the universe being the answer to a question... posed by Lee but Lee has not returned to give us guidance or refining interrogation.
I guess I do mostly believe in God because I feel blessed. And I had my doubts when I felt like my life was pretty bad. I guess that makes me pretty unremarkable. But maybe He gave me the bad times so I would appreciate the normal times.
Lately when I feel like I have something I want to complain about I wonder about people that I would think of as really having something to complain about. Like folks in the third world. It is all relative? I tend to think life is about not despairing.
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It depends on which theory of evolution you refer to. Darwin's explanation was warped by other scientists into a second theory that man descended from apes and the life on this planet started as unicelular and then progressed through mutation to algae to small organisms till the dinosaurs and finally us. That's the totally false theory of evolution that i had heard was disproven.
because if there's no way to change a creature's physique by very much at all then apes never would stand up and walk because they're bodies are shaped nothing like ours. they would've had to evolve much like pokemon to do such a thing.
The origional theory of evolution was simply that throught the course of time natural occurances would kill off species of animals. and that the strong would survive. This is scientific fact and the two thoughts, however represented are separate.
So tom how many works of religious literature have you actually read?
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"Maybe that's a story that you could say is coincidence too."
I'm afraid I have to, since far more babies in that situation actually die. Frankly, I don't dare to suggest that this PARTICULAR baby was more special or more beloved of God than all the hundreds of other babies in the same plight who do not recover.
That said, I WOULD be delighted to hear the circumstances of your final conversion.
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Brock, you reveal a staggeringly flawed understanding of natural selection (the "original theory" of evolution that you're talking about) AND evolutionary theory. For that matter, I fail to see how the Human Genome Project has shown that primate locomotors could not have been altered in major ways by mutation and selection over hundreds of thousands of years, nor have I ever heard the scientists of the Genome Project make this claim. Your "evolve much like a Pokemon" bit is rather telling; there isn't an evolutionary biologist in the world that believes this to be necessary.
As to which major books of religion I have read: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Qu'ran, the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Tao-te-Ching, Dianetics, the Secret Fire, the Summa, the Apocrypha, and the Discourses. I've read dozens more works of apology and general theology, from C.S. Lewis to Bill Sears to Rumi to Richard Bach. *laugh*
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Tom, I wasn't really converted from anything to anything. I have always been my father's daughter even when I walked away and rebelled. Posts: 103 | Registered: May 2003
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I noticed a few people in previous posts saying that they don't see how there could be a benevolent, all-powerful God, given all the suffering in the world.
It's a toughie, I'll concede that, and I'm not going to pretend that I have THE answer that will satisfy everyone, but I wondered a little about the specific nature of the question?
Is it a question of why evil exists in the first place, or is it a question of why God hasn't come down to stop it from happening? Those are both legitimate questions, but they have seperate answers, to my mind.
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I'd argue that both questions are valid. If God created the universe, why did He create it with evil? If evil is in the universe, and God clearly acts to wipe it out when it suits Him -- by intervening to save the life of babies or knock down walls or, in a few cases, destroy almost all life on Earth with big floods -- why doesn't He see fit to be more proactive?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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It's like this. You want to creat things for your children, get them things etc, but you want them to grow up to be their own people.
You stand back and hope they don't get hurt. You let them choose their path and make their way in the world. You definetly step in to intercept the BIG misteps because if you don't you would feel like you aren't being a good parent. You let them make mistakes though, because you hope they learn from them and grow from them and overcome them.
Yes, he's all powerful, but how resentful would we be if we never found out how to do things on our own? It's the same as any child. If we aren't allowed to fail, how would we know we were succeeding?
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But God MADE evil -- at least according to most theologies; Mormons have an out on this one, since they don't believe He made the universe, or is all-powerful.
It's not that He's just stepping back and letting us fall into holes; He's actually DIGGING THE HOLES, and creating shovels so that we can dig our own -- and, if you believe in miracles, occasionally and arbitrarily preventing SOME people from falling into them.
quote:You definetly step in to intercept the BIG misteps because if you don't you would feel like you aren't being a good parent.
I don't think that's true. I think that God would tell you (maybe not via sounds, but by some means) that what your doing is a big mistake. However, He'd still let you go and screw up. <grin>
Tom, have you read The Worthing Saga? *****SPOILERS***** God could step in and save us each time we made a mistake, just like those people could. However would be deprived of our most potent memories and lead lives that would seem meaningless to us.
OSC of course explains it better than I do, but I think that this is fundementally true, if we aren't free to screw-up how is doing the right thing an accomplishment?
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Ohhh, and I think your right, that if God created our spirits as well as our body than He did create all the evil (which I'm not sure I could deal with from my God ) but if He didn't create our spirits than I don't think he's digging any holes for us.
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"However would be deprived of our most potent memories and lead lives that would seem meaningless to us."
That's only valid if you accept two premises:
1) God did not create the universe and all its attributes, and is not responsible for the existence of evil OR our definition of nobility.
2) In EVERY CASE, when something bad happens, God has decided that the misfortune is worth too much to the potent memories of the survivors to intervene. By corollary, God DOES intervene -- when He presumably does -- because either that event isn't all that important, or because it's part of His plan to intervene, or because that particular person doesn't deserve to suffer from free will like the rest of us.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:1) God did not create the universe and all its attributes, and is not responsible for the existence of evil OR our definition of nobility.
Well I think that if there is a God, that is true since I don't think He would have created our spirits, just our bodies.
quote:2) In EVERY CASE, when something bad happens, God has decided that the misfortune is worth too much to the potent memories of the survivors to intervene. By corollary, God DOES intervene -- when He presumably does -- because either that event isn't all that important, or because it's part of His plan to intervene, or because that particular person doesn't deserve to suffer from free will like the rest of us.
I admit that of all the possible situations the universe could be in it is unlikely that every single one would benifit people to have all of the negative things that happen, happen. However, if there is a God, don't you think that this situation does become likely? Don't you think that God would create such a universe where the negative things that happen do so to help us learn and grow?
I realize that sounds like God created those evil things, but I don't mean that. Only that God can see what we will do with our time and therfore how best others can benifit from it.
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I realize that the above post wouldn't actually help anyone convert because it makes assumptions like "there is a God", but it's how I would understand the world given that premise.
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Tom, you may have read many religious writings, but if your mind is/was closed, you prolably learned, and were touched about as much as you would learn, or be touched by game of solitare. Than again, I know very little about your personal condition,...
As for evil, and good, well, I have a diffrent Idea.
Darkness is, technically, the abscenece of Light. Thus, you can not turn on a lamp, and have it spill darkness over a room.
In the same way, I believe evil stems from an abscenece of God. God's rootword afterall, is good, or is it the other way around? (Both words have existed so long its impossible to know)
Why, if I believe that God is everywhere, is there evil?
The answer comes back to free choice. Man can chooses to turn away from God, and towards such things as Power, material whealth, lust, excetera. When this happens, man often forgets the teachings. No longer, are the ten comandments obeyed. Thus, thousands of people die, starve, and live in abject misery while others practive murder and gluttony without a thought towards thier spiritaul well being.
God will not, and does not simply fix all the problems of this physical world just becausewe believe in him. Instead, he gives us guidance, even answers through his phophets, and thier holy wiritings. As was discussed earlier in this forum, the soul can gain far, far more by overcoming tests and difficulties, by helping others, and keeping faith, than could be gained is there were no problems in this world.
As for the life of a child, who is to say that a child miracualously saved from death might not (to use the cliche) find a cure to cancer, or maybe possitively affect the life of the kid who does grow up to find a cure for cancer, the connections and possibilities are endless. Besides, whether or not a person lives is not nesicarily a measure of God's love for them. As horribly and devastating as it is to loose a child, who is too say that that child is not happier, even purer, after bypassing life in this world?
One more thing. There are paterns. There is something called the Golden Mean. It is a proportion, by wich an overwelming amount of things in nature are constructed. These numbers can be found in the whorls of a sea-shell, the lenght and with of a leaf, tree, and even in athetically pleasing human faces, architecture, art, and designs. There is also Chaos theory...
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Tom, it's obvious your mind is closed. I can't talk to a brick wall. Sorry.
Again, I'll reiterate. Reading something and understanding it are two different things. I could read a nuclear physics book and still have no clue what they are talking about or what it really means to the big picture.
Posts: 103 | Registered: May 2003
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Religious people are always amazed to discover I've read the same things they have and haven't been blinded with a flash of revelation. Since, in many cases, their own churches teach that this is IMPOSSIBLE, they conclude that I did not have an open enough mind when doing this research.
Poppycock.
I did not do what many fundamentalist churches advocate -- which is to repeatedly beat myself over the head with the same scriptures and the required assumption that they MUST be true -- because, quite frankly, this is exactly how brainwashing works; I have complete confidence in my own eventual ability to convince myself of any given truth simply by repeating it to myself often enough.
That said, I've approached all these religions openly, honestly, and with the best of intentions, and have struggled to reconcile what seems like illogic or foolishness with my own experiences and basic philosophy. In almost all cases, it's impossible to do so.
There are a few religions that are, for the most part, logically consistent -- but even these require belief in earth-shattering events that don't seem to correlate to any historical evidence, or demand that someone accept some premises that I find violate certain observed facts about the universe.
In all these cases, these religions state that if you approach your research openly and honestly, you will find the truth for yourself. I have done so, and have not heard God. Period. So if God wants to get in touch, He knows where to find me.
I will not believe in a God that makes no sense, or is completely arbitrary, or behaves in a way that, were He human, we would call vain or evil or insane.
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"As for the life of a child, who is to say that a child miracualously saved from death might not (to use the cliche) find a cure to cancer, or maybe possitively affect the life of the kid who does grow up to find a cure for cancer, the connections and possibilities are endless."
Sure. Except that this denies free will.
If God saves the life of an infant, does that mean the infant WILL grow up to cure cancer (as an example)? Or does the infant, like other humans, have the freedom to grow up to be Hitler? And what about the infant that God KILLS? Does that infant HAVE to grow up to be Hitler, or could he have grown up to cure cancer?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I said i was wrong about the claims of the human genome project, i conceded the mistake because my understanding of genetics is limited to a high school degree.
What's wrong with my understanding of the theory of evolution? If i'me confused i'd like it straightened out please.
Evolution being like how pokemon evolve was my view of their theory not a scientific claim of anyone's
~Brock ~He who lives by the Sword gets shot by us Archers
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Hmmm, well I'm not sure how Pokemons evolve...but I doubt it's near as copmlicated as we did it. <grin> I'm not really clear on what you think evolution (as the modern theory) is, if you want to go a little more in depth I could explain either why your going the wrong way on a one-way road or why your dead on.
Tom, first off I'm curious which religions you found logical? This is really just curosity I'm not about to jump around screaming depending on which one you choose.
Your right, I think that if you went into investigating a religion by beliefing that it is true...what's the point in not starting out in joining? I feel that I've done what you described and I feel that I have gotten a response. If you want to know why I think you didn't...I have no clue I can come up with various theories of course, but really it's all meaningless. It's between you and your creator or lack thereof.
quote:I will not believe in a God that makes no sense, or is completely arbitrary, or behaves in a way that, were He human, we would call vain or evil or insane.
*Hi-fives Tom* That's why I never did believe, I never found anything that made sense to me (until now of course... ). I suppose that if God came down and spoke to me face to face and told me that Scientology was the one true faith I would....well if it was scientology I'd probably get an MRI but you get the point.
quote:So if God wants to get in touch, He knows where to find me.
I admire this attitude..at least combined with what I know about you. You seem to lead a perfectly morally upstanding live so it's not like a lack of beleif has sent you to the gutter. If there is a God or if there isn't you seem to be getting along fine...perhaps belief would help you, but your really getting along fine, not that you needed me to tell you that.
Forgive everything stupid I've said, it's almost 2:00am.
As for your other question, I don't think that if God saves a child it He will do so because that child will cure cancer or anything, He does it because it is the most benificial thing to do overall. Of course that hard part of that statment is that when He lets a child die (OK, I guess if He saves a child you could say He killed this one) it would be because that is the most benefical thing for all of mankind. That doesn't necessitate that the dead child would have grown up to slaughter millions, perhaps they would've been an employee in a hardware store who has a strong faith but does not socialize well. <grin> Perhaps not. The point is that people don't necessarily die because they would've killed off thousands if they hadn't, it simply means that their death was necessary for other's growth.
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Because Tom has such a way with words, I'll say little more than that I agree totally with him.
I've read many of the same religious text as the rest of you...and with an open heart. More, actually, in hopes of finding something rather than ruling something out. I've felt nothing, and have been disappointed. Why doesn't any of it ring true?
Miracles? Yes, they're one in a million shots. When you stop to realize that the other 999,999 times, a miracle has not been performed, this makes sense. Coincidence? Absolutely.
quote:I've heard that it's harder to be an atheist than anything. It's the total belief that your entire life and those of everyone around you is a complete and total accident with no purpose. That's utterly hollow and sad and dark and empty don't you think?
I've heard this argument from many...and they've all been Christians. To me, it serves as a reminder that religion can be little more than a comfort-thing to most.
How, exactly, is evolution an accident? Is it not making us better? If so, is it not for a purpose? Now, not believing in an afterlife is a different story...that, at one point in my life, was a bit disheartening. Then I realized that if there were an afterlife, I wouldn't want to be there, anyway...free will is the only thing about life that makes it worth living.
quote:Again, I'll reiterate. Reading something and understanding it are two different things. I could read a nuclear physics book and still have no clue what they are talking about or what it really means to the big picture.
So...you're saying that you have to believe in God before you're able to understand the proof that he exists? I think this theory nullifies hundreds of years of missionary work.
I think the only reason that the concept of God has lasted so long is that even though he was created to make sense of the world, he was created so that no sense could be made of him. The very fact that you couldn't prove his inexistance has been manipulated into proof that he exists. Most would agree that being logical is a good thing...yet religion is the enemy of logic.
So, like Tom...if God wants to talk to me, he knows where to find me. Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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No Frisco. I'm not saying you have to believe in God before you can understand the Bible etc. I'm saying that reading it and understanding it are two different things. You need a guide to understand what things meant at that time and what strange mistranslations slipped in there to fully get the jist of it. Then you'd have to decide... do you hold with the angry god of the Jews or the Son who died for the sins of man to give them eternal life in heaven? Do you hold with the God that struck down Sodom? (And rightfully so ) Or the Son who preached tolerance, love, sharing, goodness?
I think evolution needed a push. While it's comforting to know my life has purpose, it's not like I'm nothing without God but better with God in my life.
I've never said there aren't moral people that are not participating in a religion. I say they'd be better if they had God in their lives and invited Him in truelly and without judgement as if OUR judgement counts.
I can just say thought that you're not ready for these kinds of conversations. I'm not saying you don't feel you are, but It's just one of those things. Either your reached or you're still searching.
No one has ever beat me over the head with scripture or anything else. If anything I avoid the "you're all going to hell" types. That's not the message of God. God is kind, caring, generous and loving at the very least. I also avoid the "send us your money" types.
I could go into predestination, but that's a whole other can of worms. It's the one thing Methodists and Presbyterians have in difference between the way they function. The basic premise is God has a plan for everyone already. You're going to heaven or not based on that path already picked out. BUT, that doesn't mean you can live your life robbing and killing and still go to Heaven. It's a wierd oxymoron kind of belief. It boils down to, God has a plan for you and everyone else that is His child.
I'd stay and talk more, but I can see the non-believers rallying to support each other in their non-belief. When that happens, walls go up and can't be breached.
Some of my best friends have been Agnostic by the way so don't worry. I'm not the judgemental kind at all. Someday you may change your mind. Someday maybe God will change your mind. Maybe not. My only wish is that you have a happy and good life. That your days of shadow are always quick and drowned out by your days of sun.
I'm no minister. I'm actually a poor representation I think. Maybe a minister can answer your questions. I'd say priest, but I'm not Catholic and I've got my own bone to pick with them.
*shrug* My foundation is still strong in my faith. It's been through hell, shredded and back, but it's still there.
I wish you the best all of you still searching for your answers. I just think that strangers telling you how they feel aren't what you are looking for. You need something closer and I hope it comes.
Edit- Lots of errors in my typing, but the baby is bouncing on my leg and distracting me soo... sorry deal with it.
BTW Tom.. I think I'm starting to like you. You've got energy.
quote:No one has ever beat me over the head with scripture or anything else. If anything I avoid the "you're all going to hell" types.
Some of us don't even think Hell exists. <grin>
quote:You're going to heaven or not based on that path already picked out. BUT, that doesn't mean you can live your life robbing and killing and still go to Heaven. It's a wierd oxymoron kind of belief. It boils down to, God has a plan for you and everyone else that is His child.
A lot of Christian sects have this beleief, which actually kind of make sense if you just zoom out a bit. God has a plan, He knows what's going to happen in that plan, but your choices still determine if your going to Heaven or not, it's just that God already knows what those choices are. Of course you may disagree with that interpretation Sachant, but this is how I feel about it.
quote:I'd stay and talk more, but I can see the non-believers rallying to support each other in their non-belief. When that happens, walls go up and can't be breached.
I have to say that while there are a few things I think people might change their mind about based on an online conversation, religion is not one of them. Remember Ender's Game? "I sing to a stone as easily as I sing to another singer". <grin> Tom, Frisco and Zotto might not be ready to become Christian, but I'm willing to stay here and tell them why I am. I hope you are too (and you've been pretty open this whole talk so I think you are ).
One last note, I seem to be disagreeing with you on a lot of stuff, just keep in mind, the stuff I haven't mentioned I did so because you already said it better than I could Sachant.
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LOL thanks Hobbes. No you hit it on the head about predestination. God has a plan.
Have you ever read "Embraced by the Light"? It's interesting though I'm not sure if I believe her.
This woman says she went to heaven and it was explained to her why things are the way they are. She also said that we choose the life we want to live before we're even born so that we can learn some lessons we have yet to learn.
I'm not so sure about that part. I'd like to think I'd want to be a wealthy person that started things like childrens hospitals and such. Then again, I could see why I'd choose the life I have now. It's been very very difficult but the good times outshine the bad.
And, yes, you're right, I'll probably stick around because I'm extremely stubborn and if I can clear anything up I will. I just don't ever want to shove something down someone's throat.
My great-uncle is a minister too and writes educational literature. I've never seen it, but I know it exists. He also was a good friend of Fred Rogers I've been told. I've been raised in a strong willed faith filled family. My one brother is definetly agnostic, though it's amazing how God can be damned or blessed as the occassion fits on his end. My other brother, I'm not sure what he is. My sister, goes to church sporatically. My parents go all the time though that wasn't always so for my father. Yet, I believe though we don't always make the right choices, we all have a deep seated belief that heaven awaits after life here. Now if we can only get there and have those big fudge sundaes without worrying about putting on weight.
I think I'd probably end up in Heaven's library watching all the events of the Bible and all the events of past history. Wouldn't that be the most awesome thing you could do?
Not to mention see the children and family I lost. (Miscarriage so they weren't full term.)
Everyone has varying degrees of what they believe and think based on their life experiences. I was raised within the Christian faith my whole life. Others I know are new Christians and far more fired up than I am. Course that reminds me of this phrase- Revelations 3:15-16 "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So because you are lukewarm, and netierh cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth." I've been on the lukewarm side at times because I have gotten too complacent in what I 'know'. Times like these when people question God and Jesus (you really can't leave him out in my mind) then I have to say something. I just can't be Judas and deny him. Thankfully I had a great youth group leader that taught me to mark up my bible or else I would have been searching for that passage for awhile. Posts: 103 | Registered: May 2003
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You've been Christian your whole life? I've been Christrian for a few days. <grin> Ahh well, we each have to start some where. Hmmm, if I'm wrong and there is only one Heaven (*points to self* Mormon ) I think I'd keep tagging along behind God trying to get him to tell me if all my wacky physics theories were true.
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What is God? What is important in life? Everyone answers these questions differently, therefore there is no answer. If you need God then you will have God. If you don't need God then God will not be there. It does not matter one way or the other. The only time that God matters between people is when they disagree. Problems arise when people try to convince unwilling others of their own personal truths.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Welcome to the fold Hobbes. I'll save any judgements on Mormonism since frankly I know too little to judge it. I have had Mormon friends before and I've never had an argument with any of them. They were all extremely nice, intelligent people.
Some say there is only one path to Jesus and thus Heaven. I go against the grain and say there are so many religions because there are many paths that fit many people. Yes, I'm a rebel. ;p
I'd probably walk along with you and hear about the physics questions you had. It could be interesting. Thanfully God has infinite patience so I doubt we'll drive Him crazy so ... maybe He'll just pass us off to the Physics angel or something.
There are answers Chichis. It's just we aren't enlightened enough or in touch with God enough to know them for ourselves. We're too self-absorbed and imperfect.
Edit... I forgot.. the secret of life is 42 by the way.
Email me if you ever want to talk Hobbes. I'd tell Tom to, but I think he'd end up arguing theology with my husband. LOL.. He just can't not argue. (the hubby that is)
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Hobbes has right idea...you guys might not be ready to become agnostic/atheist, but I'm here to explain it to you whenever you'd like.
As for Christianity, I doubt anything short of revelation could turn me back to that path. I've asked, and gotten no answer--seeked, and found nothing. I've knocked, and found the door to remain closed. I've asked for bread and have been given stones.
Scientology, on the other hand.... Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I have friends that are scientologists too Frisco. I've tried to read up on some of it, but I either wasn't concentrating or some of what I read was very conflicting and didn't seem to make much clear on how it worked.
I'm like a sponge. I love learning about how others think and other religions. They are all so intertwined and yet so very different that it starts soooo many arguements. Posts: 103 | Registered: May 2003
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Many of those who are agnostic or (strict)atheist believe that those who believe in God are deluding themselves into believing in a supreme being who watches over them and meddles in the affairs of men.
Many of those who believe in God believe that those who don't are deluding themselves into thinking the world could be so perfect with a maker, or that they have not been enlightened to see the truth.
I can't help but be amazed at how often people believe they have a monopoly on the truth. It happens that so many times people believe they are right, that they hold the truth, and are ultimately proven wrong. The problem with God is that there is nothing to be proved. One of the defining characteristics of the God that most people believe in is that He operates outside the realm of human control. Those who believe they hold the truth, whether for or against God, cannot be proved wrong. However, humans often make a logical fallacy at this point. The lack of evidence against the existence of God is not evidence for the existence of God. The opposite is also true.
Let me tell you what I believe. I believe that I am not the keeper of truth. I believe that I have been wrong many times when I thought I was right. I believe that other humans are also not the keepers of truth. I believe they are on the same level playing field as me. I do not have the answers, and neither does anyone else.
When someone says, "You just haven't found faith yet," or, "You just haven't realized how impossible it is for their to be a God," or "God will reveal himself to you when he is ready," I continue to wonder how someone be so sure of their monopoly on the truth.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Jun 2003
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That's what I'm saying. No one can say they have THE ultimate answers. Though we do have some darn good ones to go on. Whether they are the ultimate ones, we'll have to wait and see. I intend to keep living the best life I can and believing.
posted
Ooh, I hope my above post didn't sound too rude or anything...frankly, I like these kinds of discussions, and everyone here has been pretty respectful and open-minded...my earlier post was just pointing out something that I thought was unfair.
And I did say I agreed with Tom and Frisco for the most part.
So...a smiley, because I'm enjoying this talk. Posts: 1595 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I have a question for you Hobbes. No actually I have about 873. but one for now- if you say you are Christian (which is certainly news to me, thanks for the update ) then you probably believe the Bible is true, right? I urge you to put down your Book of Mormon and read some of the Bible. If this is true then how can Hell not exist?
Posts: 252 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Although my mom tells me to stay away from these kinds of discussions, I just can't help myself. I like seeing other people's points of view.
I also like to make sure people know I'm not the one to judge them. Not my yob. (Yes, the y is on purpose. )
I understand why there is doubt and questioning. Questioning is good. If we don't question we are not our own persons.
I've known devout Christians that can quote scripture but have no idea what it means. I've argued with someone before that says door to door preaching is the is the only way to spread the word of God. So I found a passage that says that's not true.
John 17:9 I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;
Basically it means pray for those you know... speak to those who come to you and ask. As much as I would like to stomp my foot and turn my back on Tom or Frisco, I can't because I have to whether they believe what I say or not. To not answer their questions as well as I can (which isn't so great in my opinion) would be to turn my back on those that ask.
Also the jist of the entirety of the passage means that you should change what you can, but don't worry about changing everything.
He had to concede that perhaps it wasn't entirely a good idea to talk to people that didn't care to hear what you have to say.
Edit- Uh oh.. Ravenclaw opened the can of worms! Since we're asking questions... I don't know how true this is but I heard the author ( Smith is it?) said that he made it all up while on his deathbed. It could have been people putting words in his mouth though.
Also, what do you mean by 'if there's only one heaven'? That confuses me. There are seperate heavens in Mormonism?
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Hmmm, well I had a long discussion about this on the other side, hopefully at some point I'll get the eneregy to go dig it up and paste in a few choice quotes (others always seem better able to express their ideas than me).
As for the deathbed thing, Joseph Smith died when he was shot and fell out of a window so I don't think that's really applicable.
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Hmm, I couldn't figure out how to link to a specific post, so I'll just quote it here (this is in response to my question which basically exactly the same):
quote:actually, you'll find flames, fire and brimstone mentioned in the Book of Mormon as well. Look at 2 Nephi chapter 9 for example:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later on in the Book of Mormon there are less references to flames etc and more references to hell as pain or torment. This could be due to the fact that the idea of hell as a fiery pit (gehenna) was particularly strong for those who lived near Jerusalem (Like Nephi and Jacob in the Book of Mormon) because there was a garbage pit near the city which burned constantly and so the imagery would have been quite vivid for them. Later authors would have been subject to different cultural imagery more specific to the Americas. What strikes me especially are the constant associations of [url=http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=chain+hell&search.x=0&search.y=0[/url]chains and captivity with the idea of hell in the book of Alma and then in third Nephi "gates of hell" is a common phrase. This difference in emphasis may be cultural as I said or it could be simply due to the fact that the different books were written by different authors who wrote using different phrasology.
At any rate, whatever imagery is used to convey the idea it is clear that the Book of Mormon authors were using metaphor to convey the following idea: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell is basically a state of suffering brought on by inability/ unwillingness to change. Every human being at some time or another has allowed habit/culture/comfort dictate his or her actions over what they know to be good or right. People who do so frequently find themselves trapped in terribly unhappy situations they can't get out of (think of drug addicts, or spouse abuse or just about any human failing). To escape such a situation requires knowledge of a better way and the faith to act. It is easy to see that this is the case. I think that hell is essentially the same thing- people for one reason or another find themselves unable or unwilling to make the changes which will bring them happiness and so they are stuck in their misery. It is as if they are captives to their own worst natures- they are chained to their bad habits.
Hence, hell in my view is not a punishment God inflicts on the wicked but is a state of suffering the wicked inflict on themselves by their own choice.
posted
The different Heavens is three states of Glory. No matter what happens to you in this life you will achieve one of those states of Glory. Meaning that even if your evil, you'll still obtain happieness, but those who choose to do good and progress more achieve a higher state of happieness.
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That answers the question about Hell from a Mormon point of view I suppose. Which doesn't answer my own question at all.
Posts: 252 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wow Hobbes.. so a murdering pedophile deserves to be happy after they die? I'll stick to my fire and brimstone hell thank you very much. If I find out that they DO get to go to that kind of happiness, I'm going to rebel, take over heaven and make my own pit of fire.
I mean what? They get Harley Davidsons, whores, booze and cigarettes while everyone else gets banquets at fine dining restaraunts?
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Sachant, are you saying that the only thing keeping you from being a biker chick is the fear of Hell?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Whether or not we believe in it, the sun will shine. I doubt that it even gives two craps that we're here.
Though I wonder when it does something cool, like an eclipse, if it's not showing off.
Likening God to the sun isn't really a good analogy, though...maybe compare him to something a little more abstract and mysterious. Like Teflon. I mean, if it doesn't stick to anything, how does it stick to the pan?!
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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LOL.. no it's not the only thing keeping me from being a biker chick. Road rash is.
I just have a real problem believing that if someone does evil acts that they get to live the good life after they die.
I mean... how exactly do you define levels of happiness. Are they only somewhat happy? Do they only get beernuts instead of hotwings? If they happen to like beernuts over wings and really are happy about it, is some angel suppossed to come along and say "I'm sorry, you're too happy, I must take away your beernuts so that you're only just so happy."
I can see if someone that commits evil acts truely repents. While that too is hard to swallow, that's a forgiveness thing that is often tough. But, to not repent and STILL get rewarded? That's just ridiculous. I mean what? They didn't have free will so didn't choose to do those bad things? How would you justify rewards for a badly lived life?
That's what I would like to know. While the thought of Hell isn't something that good people fear, the thought may actually keep others who would normally do things they shouldn't in check. Who am I to say what is in another's mind though. I certainly couldn't prove that.
I'm just saying, that (like in the example) murdering pedophiles do not deserve 'Glory'. They chose to do those things and act that way. Of course, my luck, they'll be atheists and instead of going anywhere, their souls will disintegrate like in Incarnations of Immortality. I guess at least that way they could never be reincarnated if we are reincarnated to live many lives.
It's one of the strangest concepts I've ever heard. It isn't a slam against Hobbes in anyway, but I'm curious the justification for it let alone, where Jesus has ever said such a thing in a verified text. While others say they don't trust the Bible... I certainly cannot trust the Book of Mormon if these are the things it is teaching. While I'm sure most Mormons don't think they can go rob and steal and go to heaven, there probably are some that justify their actions with 'at least I'll still be happy in the afterlife'.
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) then you probably believe the Bible is true, right? I urge you to put down your Book of Mormon and read some of the Bible. If this is true then how can Hell not exist?
