posted
I'm about two thirds of the way through Shadow Puppets and have thought about Bean at first claiming that he doesn't want any progeny because he's afraid that they'll get the same genetic defect as he. Yet, he doesn't do anything about it, such as have a vasectomy to prevent his fathering a child. This leads me to believe that he is a the very least unsure that he doesn't want children.
Then, Petra convinces him to at least explore the possibility that they can have children in vitro as long as the cytoblasts (is this the correct term?) can be non-destructively tested for the defect. They are assured that it can be done, but Petra figures out that Volescu is lying when he says that he has a test. I bet Bean knew it at least subconsciously as he is supposed to be off the scale when it comes to intelligence. So, I have to assume that he really does want progeny.
Also, why can't he get Petra pregnant in the usual way, as they are obviously in love with each other? Then, Petra could have tests during her first trimester and if the fetus had the genetic defect she could get an abortion.
Also, I believe that the science is nearly (if not already) in our grasp today to stop people who are afflicted with acromegaly to stop the growth or at least significantly slow it so that the people affect can live more normal and longer lives. Anyway, Andre the Giant lived to his 48th year. While I agree that isn't terribly old, it is more than double what Card would have us think that Bean will live to. So my point is, that once Graff knew Bean's "secret" he could have engaged scientists to look into greatly slowing if not stopping Beans uncontrolled growth assuming it is not that same as acromegaly.
And finally, do you think that Ender's fantasy with the giant was a premonition of sorts for Bean?
[Edited to correct an obvious (to me ) spelling error.]
quote:This leads me to believe that he is a the very least unsure that he doesn't want children.
I don't think Bean was ever interested in sexual relationships of any sort, so why go through a whole operation to make yourself sterile when it's not even going to be an issue?
quote: I bet Bean knew it at least subconsciously as he is supposed to be off the scale when it comes to intelligence. So, I have to assume that he really does want progeny.
I think that's probably true, that his emotional desire to procreate caused his intellect to lapse and not catch the lie, but that his conscious mind still firmly believed that having children with his “defect” was a bad idea.
quote: Also, why can't he get Petra pregnant in the usual way, as they are obviously in love with each other? Then, Petra could have tests during her first trimester and if the fetus had the genetic defect she could get an abortion.
Well let me put it this way: you can either create a whole bunch of fertilized eggs and test them all before you actually put them in your womb, or you can keep creating children the normal way many times, and then each time you can go through a series of procedures to determine if the child inside of you fits your qualifications, and if not, suck the child out and try again. Which do you choose?
quote: So my point is, that once Graff knew Bean's "secret" he could have engaged scientists to look into greatly slowing if not stopping Beans uncontrolled growth assuming it is not that same as acromegaly.
It is mentioned that there are scientist studying the problem, but since bean does represent a whole new genetic development I think that them not finding a cure isn’t really a flaw in the plot. We don’t really know what it is that causes Bean to grow, as the mechanism itself is not fundamental to the story, so who knows if it could be stopped?
posted
Hobbes, I've been thinking about your points and wish to address them as follows.
quote: don't think Bean was ever interested in sexual relationships of any sort, so why go through a whole operation to make yourself sterile when it's not even going to be an issue?
Actually, I don't think that is true. All through Shadow Puppets there are references to how Bean felt about Petra. For example, on p22 Petra says to Bean: "I don't think I want to have your babies, if they might inherit your sense of humor." Then Bean replies: "That's a relief." And then we get into Bean's head with these thoughts:
quote: Only it wasn't. Because he was attracted to her and she knew it. Mote than that. He truly cared about her, liked being with her. She was his friend. If he weren't going to die, if he wanted to have a family, if had any interest in marrying, she was the only female human that he would even consider.
So, he was considering it, and he did marry her. Anyway, he certainly was not able to surpress his desires, and he did desire Petra, and despite his lofty talk, he did want children, but he wanted to guarentee they would not carry his defect. Also, later on he stated (p50) "I'm a raging mass of hormones that I'm too young to understand." As way of making light of the way he really felt. So I maintain, that as long as he recognized his sexual desires and if he was absolutely sure he didn't want children he could have had a vascectomy and have solved his problem. Petra would have been royally pissed, though.
quote: Well let me put it this way: you can either create a whole bunch of fertilized eggs and test them all before you actually put them in your womb, or you can keep creating children the normal way many times, and then each time you can go through a series of procedures to determine if the child inside of you fits your qualifications, and if not, suck the child out and try again. Which do you choose?
I would probably choose not to get pregnant. But I missed the point in my original statement and I've been doing some more thinking about this. Today there are tests available for people who are afraid of passing on certain genetic defects before the pregnancy.
quote: Tay-Sachs disease, a heritable metabolic disorder commonly associated with Ashkenazi Jews, has also been found in the French Canadians of Southeastern Quebec, the Cajuns of Southwest Louisiana, and other populations throughout the world. The severity of expression and the age at onset of Tay-Sachs varies from infantile and juvenile forms that exhibit paralysis, dementia, blindness and early death to a chronic adult form that exhibits neuron dysfunction and psychosis.
(from Genes and Disease So the problem that Bean has is will he pass his defect through the strand of DNA that combines with the egg; and if so, will the trait be dominent; and if dominent, to what degree? Therefore, assuming a test exists, it will only determine if the defect was carried to the egg, not if it will affect the resultant child.
quote: We don’t really know what it is that causes Bean to grow, as the mechanism itself is not fundamental to the story, so who knows if it could be stopped?
I dissagree that it is not fundamental for what Bean is doing. We know that Bean has to go after Achilles and kill him, but even when his own life was endangered he did not kill Achilles, but got him to confess to the murders. But now, his progeny is at risk, and regardless that he didn't want offspring with the defect, he less wants them to be in Achilles power. Further, Achilles has proven to be uncontainable. Bean knows that he has to make sure that Achilles is dead so that he can't do anything with his and Petra's progeny.
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quote:Actually, I don't think that is true. All through Shadow Puppets there are references to how Bean felt about Petra.
That's true, at some point Bean does become interested in sexual relationships, though it does happen in a very short period of time. I can only think of two reasons to make yourself permantly sterile (besides the goverment paying you which is a whole 'nother can a worms ). In both cases of course, the fundemental reason is that you don't, and never will, want children, but it would only come up id A) You where in a physical relationship with someone and didn't want to go to the trouble of wearing birth control, or B) You weren't convinced that you could resist a sexual situation if presented with the choice.
I think it's pretty clear that Bean does not fall into category B, since he has pretty darn good control of his actions. For category A, he's not in a physical relationship, and although he may desire it, why would he have a surgical procedure just in case he gets in a situation and then doesn't want to go to the trouble of birth control? It seems a little silly to me...
quote:So the problem that Bean has is will he pass his defect through the strand of DNA that combines with the egg; and if so, will the trait be dominent; and if dominent, to what degree? Therefore, assuming a test exists, it will only determine if the defect was carried to the egg, not if it will affect the resultant child.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, if the fertilizied egg doesn't have the trait, how could the child? Either way though, tests are always easier to conduct when not implanted, and if the test shows that they are carying the unwanted gene, it'd be much nicier to find out before your pregnant with that particular child.
quote:I dissagree that it is not fundamental for what Bean is doing. We know that Bean has to go after Achilles and kill him, but even when his own life was endangered he did not kill Achilles, but got him to confess to the murders. But now, his progeny is at risk, and regardless that he didn't want offspring with the defect, he less wants them to be in Achilles power. Further, Achilles has proven to be uncontainable. Bean knows that he has to make sure that Achilles is dead so that he can't do anything with his and Petra's progeny.
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't see anything here that would explain why it's important we know the physical cause of Bean's growth.
posted
Hobbes, it seems that we are the only ones interested in this dialogue, and I thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to my points (or pointlessness ) thoughtfully. Anyway, you wrote:
quote: That's true, at some point Bean does become interested in sexual relationships, though it does happen in a very short period of time. I can only think of two reasons to make yourself permantly sterile (besides the goverment paying you which is a whole 'nother can a worms ). In both cases of course, the fundemental reason is that you don't, and never will, want children, but it would only come up id A) You where in a physical relationship with someone and didn't want to go to the trouble of wearing birth control, or B) You weren't convinced that you could resist a sexual situation if presented with the choice.
I can think of a third reason, and I believe that is what Bean's reason might have been and that is one might be so afraid that the genetic defect that can be passed on is so devastating that one could reasonably not want to chance that it be passed. That is why I gave some detail of Tay-Sachs which is a horribly devastating genetic defect. Another example I could have used is Huntington's Chorea, which is more parallel to the situation that Bean is finding he is in. With Huntington's Chorea, the person reaches adulthood and can produce progeny that can be affected by only inheriting the defect from one parent. People who have this defect in their family may choose to test for it because they do not want to pass it down to their children, and if they are carriers may choose sterilization. Anyway, I think that by not getting sterilized, In the beginning of the book, Bean was probably on the fence about not wanting to have children and was willing to take the gamble.
quote: I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here, if the fertilizied egg doesn't have the trait, how could the child? Either way though, tests are always easier to conduct when not implanted, and if the test shows that they are carying the unwanted gene, it'd be much nicier to find out before your pregnant with that particular child.
What I was trying to say, obviously not clearly is that the only way they could be sure that the defect could not be carried is if it were not present in the fertilized egg. Suppose all the eggs had the trait? Then Bean would have a much harder decision. Does he chance that the children would be okay because it was not dominant? Or does he destroy the entire batch? We already saw that he rued destroying the three that he was led to believe had the trait. Therefore, I tend to think that Bean could have impregnated Petra in the usual way and just chanced it because as the book progressed he really wanted children .
quote: Perhaps I missed it, but I don't see anything here that would explain why it's important we know the physical cause of Bean's growth.
I miss-understood what you originally said. I thought you meant that Achilles was not crucial to the plot (which was really dumb of me, D'Oh!). However, I do think that Bean knowing the physical cause of his defect is important to the plot. Else, why go to Anton and then Volescu? He could have simply cut to the chase and decided that as he wanted children as much as Petra that he'd just take his chances.
quote: Also, why can't he get Petra pregnant in the usual way, as they are obviously in love with each other? Then, Petra could have tests during her first trimester and if the fetus had the genetic defect she could get an abortion.
unohoo, although Hobbes has already answered your question, I believe that Petra's idea for in vetro fertilization was more practical than the usual way of conception for Bean and Petra, in this case, because (before the tests had been done and Petra realized that Volescu had no test for detecting Anton's Key) they believed that Volescu could tell which ones had Anton's Key. Somehwere in SP, Bean said that all genetic work had to be done inside the genome, so it would be impossible for scientists (or Volescu) to take an already developing fetus out of Petra's body and correct the defect after detecting it. Although Petra and Bean later realized that Volescu had no test, at the time in vetro seemed fitting.
quote: And finally, do you think that Ender's fantasy with the giant was a premonition of sorts for Bean?
I've actually never thought of that but the intrigues me...hmmm...that's actually a great idea.
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For some reason when people word things that way it always seems a bit.. I don't know... sarcastic? Oh well, sure it wasn't meant that way. *Leaves thread before a fight ensues*
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quote: ...although Hobbes has already answered your question, I believe that Petra's idea for in vetro fertilization was more practical than the usual way of conception for Bean and Petra,...
I agree with you line of reasoning to a point, wieczorek. However, I later concluded (after having finished the book) that Bean had decided to have children regardless. At the book's conclusion, Bean did not know if he is a carrier of the genetic defect 100% of the time, some of the time, or never. This gets back to the question of if the test existed and Volescu found that all the embroyo's had the defect, would Bean have destroyed them all? At that moment, he would have to make a permanent decision. I think that he thought he would destroy them all prior to finding anything out, but if faced with the choice of not having any children would he have chosen that course of action at that time? If the answer was that he would have not destroyed all the embroyos, then they should have conceived in the usual way. BTW, as Bean did not get himself sterilized I concluded that he at least subconsciously did want children.
People today are faced with similar choices, although not the same condition. In a previous reply I used Huntington's Chorea as an example of a genetic defect that one can pass to one's children. This is a devastating disease that first strikes in young adults through to middle age. People can be tested to find out if they are carriers for the disease. Once determined, one can make the decision not to have children. What surprised me was that Bean never chose to have himself tested to see if he was a carrier (or did I miss that ). As it [the defect] was artifically induced is it at all possible that Bean is not a carrier and therefore could have children without the guilt of condeming his offspring to the same fate?
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posted
"once Graff knew Bean's "secret" he could have engaged scientists to look into greatly slowing if not stopping Beans uncontrolled growth"
beans incredible mental abilities hinge on the continuous growth of his brain, which corresponds directly to the size of his body. if his growth was slowed or stopped, he would lose his brains power to make an unlimited number of new synaptic connections. this is what gives him the "unlimited learning potential of an infant" (Carlotta?). so the cure for his "disease" would also erase that which causes his unique genius. klipp
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quote: As it [the defect] was artifically induced is it at all possible that Bean is not a carrier and therefore could have children without the guilt of condeming his offspring to the same fate?
Although it's a less mentioned reason, there is deffinitly atleast one point in the book where it is mentioned that Bean doesn't want his children to grow up fatherless.
I also don't think that at any point in the book it's stated that Bean doesn't want children, or if it is, Bean's constant self analysis gives death sentence to this theory. Bean simply doesn't want his children to grow up to die at age 20.
It's a recurring theme throughout all 3 books that Bean doesn't actually realize how he feels about something/someone until they're gone. Poke dies, then bean realizes he "loved" her. Bean doesn't realize he loves Sister Carlotta until they meet again after battle school, he has to lose her and then get her back to realize this. Bean doesn't realize he wants to be with Petra until Achilles has her, even then it was only subconciously, it only comes to his concious thought that that's when he accepted that he loved her after they're married.
It's the same with his children. He doesn't realize that he loves his would be children until Achilles has them, despite the fact that while he had them he murdered 3 of them. He compares himself to Volescu at that point.
It occurs over and over again. Bean doesn't truly realize how important something/someone is to him until he doesn't have them anymore, at which point he fights furiously to get them back.
As for the giant in Ender's Game, I doubt it was intentionally put in by OSC. Whether he had decided while writing Ender's Game about bean's peculiarities or not, I don't know. But seeing as it was never mentioned, it's unlikly that anything beyond "He's so smart because he was genetically altered" the ramifications of that fact such as that he would never stop growing were probably concocted when he first spoke to Neal Shusterman about the possibility of a parallel to Ender's Game, long after the Giant was first written about in Ender's Game.
-Fooglmog Guy with no clue.
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posted
I think that's a really good point. I feel I have to repeat what other people have said: Why should Bean make himself sterile if he sees no possibility of a physical relationship? It wasn't until after he had let Petra convince him to have children that he agreed to have a physical relationship with her. And don't bring up that kiss that happened before they saw Anton. I believe he had already decided that he would have children if he could, he just needed someone bringing up good enough points to ease his mind. His heart and his body had already agreed. I also think that you're not taking into account the fact that people aren't really arguing with you about whether or not Bean wanted kids. Even if he didn't realize it consciously, he did want kids. He just convinced himself that he didn't want them so he could cause them any future pain. (Not just physical pain caused by the defect, should they get it, but emotional pain when he died.)
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posted
I agree that the learning curve is skewed in the fact that Bean's condition should be treatable. The only possible excuse I see is that genetic research was halted during the crisis with the Foremics.
Bean clearly wanted to leave Petra children to bear even after his death, hence the invitro fertalization.
As for the treatment halting Beans intellectual development, there I disagree. It is inevitable that a deminishing margin of returns exisits in complexification of the brain, at some point new growth would have no benefit because no useful new function is developed or needed. Unless he is going to become telepathic or telekinetic or some such fantasy intrusion.
I worry most that Bean is never going to get to have his war. So far he has had only a small part of military action, I think that Bean needs the chance to fight a high resource war on a global scale.
The one thing that I disagree with OSC on and I think most of us will agree at this point is his exrapolation of America lacking a will to exert military force to reshape the word. The series started with the Clinton Administration or was influenced by it rather, and it is clear that the attitude is not the true expression of American will. If it intrudes on our lives we are happy to kill it!
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Anyway, he certainly was not able to surpress his desires, and he did desire Petra, and despite his lofty talk, he did want children, but he wanted to guarentee they would not carry his defect. Also, later on he stated (p50) "I'm a raging mass of hormones that I'm too young to understand." As way of making light of the way he really felt. So I maintain, that as long as he recognized his sexual desires and if he was absolutely sure he didn't want children he could have had a vascectomy and have solved his problem. Petra would have been royally pissed, though. ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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D'Oh!). However, I do think that Bean knowing the physical cause of his defect is important to the plot. Else, why go to Anton and then Volescu? He could have simply cut to the chase and decided that as he wanted children as much as Petra that he'd just take his chances.
