quote:These people are genii. Nikolai and Bean are genetically identical. To be totally pragmatic, Nikolai's baby IS Bean's unless you specifically want Anton's Key, which they were going out of their way to avoid. Sure, have sex with Bean, but use Nikolai's sperm to fertilize yourself with. For all intents and purposes it's the same thing. I understand the "but I'm in love with Bean", but Nikolai's progeny IS Bean's progeny too, unless we say that Lamarck was right and that experiences can be inherited (which is wrong). Bean should know this and I'd expect him to suggest it.
An interesting point, fitbrit. for all intents and purposes you might be correct. But consider the context here. OSC is christian, with strong moral values he depicts throughout all of his books. the characters in them, regardless of your own view, take religion as a major framework for their beliefs. My bottom line, anyway, is, regardless of whether nikolai is or isnt genetically identical to bean, if petra was inseminated with his genetic material, The material, technically speaking, comes from nikolai, not bean. therefore, it is not beans child, but nikolai's.
*shrug*. i understand this concept probably because i buy into it. also, whose to say what small genetic mutations bean or nikolai might have? its very rare for twins to be truly identical. i would almost say impossible.
Posts: 5 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Even though Bean and Nicolai are genetically identical (excluding Anton's Key) they are not the same person, because they are individuals, with their own soul, and are very much different because of the enviroment that they were brought up in (or lack there of), and the experiences they were both exposed to, forming there personality and their individuality; in which case I personally don't think it even matters that their DNA is (nearly) identical, because Bean is who he is, and Nicolai is who he is.
(Did that make any sense?) Posts: 50 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Quote: "I also found it bizarre that we are never told (to my recollection) how tall Bean is at any stage in the book. That seems like an important piece of information to me.
Anyone have any answers for me?"
There are several paces where we are given descriptions of Bean's height relative to other people or objects, the one I remember most being when they are with the Caliph. Bean is described as having, at his arrival there, to reach up to get clothes hangers, but by the end of his stay there having to reach down (slightly). We're never told he is 8'6" or anything though.
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
To answer Fitbrit (Edit from frigit - sorry man I always confuse names) post, namely: For why she doesn't want to freeze the sperm and have the children after he dies.
The above sentence answers itself, provided of course, you are not a mathematical equation.
Next on the agenda: Shadow Puppets suckage level.
Well, to answer this, you have to read the book more than once. He's trying (I think) to get some of his ideas out onto the page. About relationships between individuals and, about the meaning of life (well, at least Anton is).
He's also theorizing about how a successful attack on a huge land mass such as China would work. I think he's wrong on that one. For one thing, no one takes kindly to foreigners. The only reason the Iraqi army gave in was because they hated their dictator far more than we can imagine. The Chinese would fight recklessly to stop an invasion, and this includes the average mother who is pregnant. Such a war would be bloodier than anything the world has seen. They would need logistical support far beyond what they had in the story.
But, I'm not a military guy, so to be honest, he could be totally right and I could be full of hot air (I probably am at that)
He's also trying to deal with how he wishes groups of people would be, namely, an idealistic vision of the Arab culture being true to itself and achieving a new age of greatness.
This makes sense. Mass changes in a population have to come from within. Nowadays I think we have a feeling that is the case. But Eric Hoffer makes it very clear.
(warning - long off topic coming up!!!)
I just read a book by Eric Hoffer, "The True Believer - thoughts on the nature of mass movements". It's pretty good, although he doesn't realize that he's got the Jewish sources wrong. The commentaries explicity state that the Pharoah went out of his way to crush the people precisely to keep them from rebelling.
In other words, Hoffer understood what happened, only he got it backwards as to what happened with us Jews. On the other hand, after reading Hoffers book, I understood far better the nature of the miracle. It's one thing to split the sea, it's quite another to achieve something that is literally against human nature. Which is probably why Hoffer believed that the Jews were actually treated better - he couldn't get his mind around the concept that G-d exists and runs the show.
Whew.
Anyway, just read it a few times. There's one othe r important development in the book, and that is how Peter begins to grow up and become a man in reality. There are actually a lot of very insightful points in this book come to think of it.
posted
I think the problem here with Nikolai vs. Bean is the Key. Everyone keeps saying that Bean and Nikolai are genetically identical, the only difference being the turned key. I say that Bean and Nikolai WERE identical until the key was turned. Nikolai would not yield the same children that Bean would because they wouldn't have the GENETIC ALTERATION that made Bean a super-genius.
Meaning, Bean and Nikolai came from the same twinned embryo, so they started with the same DNA, but Bean's genes were altered later, making him genetically different from Nikolai.
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But, as discussed many times, Bean and Petra were planning to genetically engineer their children to remove the Key...
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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No they weren't. They were planning to discard the ones that had the key, because what's-his-face told them he had a test to tell which ones had it.
(I missed where that was said though. I'm sorry.)
EDIT: OOOH! Now I see the complications. Okay nevermind. Der.
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well there is a big difference between identical twins or clones; the later being an exact replica of bean.
and the reason petra wanted to have the baby right then is so bean would still be alive when they had their first child.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I started reading this part of the forum because the topic interested me... I have a near-photographic memory but I dont like reading pointless relentless questions about the same old thing over and over... thats why I skipped from the 4th question about Enders and Peters hair to the part where I could send a reply... I'm guessing that the only reason that you thought they were brown haired or blonde haired was because you yourself were brown haired or blonde haired... but for the record I know basically the answer to every question I have seen so far so if there is any questions that have been left unanswered... just ask the question in this section of the furom... since ive only been involved in 2 posts and today was my first day I can help anyone with any questions about Bean or Ender... except in the last 100 pages of "Children of the Mind" and "Shadow Puppets"... unless you ask them tomorow when I have finished reading them. By the way JUST ASK ME THE QUESTIONS BY E-MAIL @ Bloodz2mydeath@yahoo.com. My personal one that I just committed to the forum. Thanks Posts: 9 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Nikolai and Bean are genetically equivalent to identical twins, but not necessarily genetically identical.
Identical twins are beleived to be formed when the fertilized egg first begins to divide and replicate. It may be an error in the replication process that causes two cells to develop into two genetically identical individuals or it may be a a genetic duplication error which causes the second cell to be very slightly different from the original and discarded and allowed to become its own individual. If the second mechanism is what happens then the second twin is not exaactly genetically identical to the first.
Anyway the argument is pretty moot because Petra clearly wanted Bean's children and wanted for him to be around long enough to be their father.
He may not die so quickly anyhow.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Question Are you coming out with any more Ender books?
OSC Answers There are no sequels planned to Children of the Mind, the last of the novels about Ender Wiggin. However, the Shadow series, set in the same future as Ender's Game but following Bean and other characters from Ender's Game, will continue until we have four books, "Ender's Shadow," "Shadow of the Hegemon," "Shadow Puppets," and "The Shadow of the Giant."
I made a mistake last night of thinking I hadn't read Shadow Puppets yet, so I bought it..
I've read a lot of it and everything is familiar... I was thinking that I had just read the first 5 online or something, but that's not the case. I've read the whole book! I just don't REMEMBER things until I read them (mostly).
posted
Personally, it's my favorite so far. But then, I've gotten married and had a baby in the last year and a half, so I guess that's because I identify with the characters even more than I did in the other books. I don't really see these flaws in the plot (at least not as flaws); I just identify with the longing for children and a family at any cost.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Having thought about this all evening (and re-read Shadow Puppets in the last day) I realized that this is the type of protagonist I have always identified with, not just recently. Petra exhibits a longing for children of the man she loves that I have always had, even before I knew who that man would be. (I always fantasized about getting married and having a large family as a child.) Question to those who didn't like the book: how do you feel about Anton's statements about the meaning of life and relationships? I think that's the center of this issue for me.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Personally, I loved Shadow Puppets, just as I've loved all the Bean books. Though I was beginning to despair, as it has been 2 years since it's publishing with no word of a sequel, so I appreciate whoever posted that!
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2004
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