posted
Due to a a current situation I have ranted about on the other side I have a question regarding the seperation of church and state. I thought I would post over here as well because Mr. Card as well as the members who frequesnt this side seem to have interesting insight into matters such as these and sometimes don't post as often on the other side to see my question.
My 8th grade teaching team has been told by our superintendant that we must reschedule a trip that has been scheduled all year because Sunday is the Lord's day. I'm not saying I disagree with this statement because I don't in general, but can it even be legally used in this situation? There is no written ghuidlines or regulations in our district forbidding Sunday trips, it has always been an unwitten rule. To have the door on the matter shut so firmly in such a way doesn't seem right. Am I just an angry teacher that thinks my kids are getting the shaft or do I have a valid complaint?
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Even if it is, I can see why a superintendent might make that requirement...since it could be argued that putting a trip on sunday infringes on the religious freedoms of people who don't believe in doing work on a sunday.
I am a college teaching assistant at a University, and we are discouraged from putting tests on major religious holidays, and if we do have a test on a religious holiday, we are required to give makeup tests (without penalty) to anyone who misses the test because of the holiday.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I pretty much agree with what Lupus said, though I don't know if the superintendent REALLY can. To me this whole "seperation of church and state" was originally made for the sole purpose of keeping the actual church itself from ruling the government like it did in England for a long time. But nothing else.
posted
If it's a public school, he'd better come up with another reason right quick. That explanation is in total violation of the church/state issue. I don't remember many weekend trips for school anyway, but that is a bogus reason, and he can most certainly be taken to the cleaners for it, whether anyone agrees with him or not.
posted
If you take a careful look at the Constitution, you'll notice that it never even mentions anything about "Separation of church and state." The closest it comes to that is to say that the state may not force anyone to practice a specific religion, nor may it declare an official state religion. It never says anything about not favoring one religion over another (I'm not saying that means we should, I'm just saying that it doesn't tell us that we can't), and it was never intended to keep God out of the government in all shapes and forms. It was only intended to keep religious persecution out of the USA.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I'm not ready to go down that road yet. I have offered to sit down and speak to her about the whole trip and come to a resolution. She is actually a wonderful superintendant that is very involved and supportive of our students. She is very visable through out the district. We all understand her feeling and don't even disagree but it's one day, not a weekly obligation. So you'd think she would give on this point. We'll see...
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You could always explain to her that Sunday is most definitely not the Sabbath in the Bible, and since she's Christian, this should be important to her. And since the Bible never changed the Sabbath to Sunday, there are absolutely no problems with doing whatever you want on Sunday--because you can't keep a day Holy that never was made Holy in the first place.
Really, though, I detest that sort of religious rule in a public school. Being of a somewhat different Christian denomination myself, stuff like this really gets to me. If I were a kid in that school, being SDA (Seventh-day Adventist) as I am, I'm sure I would think... um... I can't go on this trip because of your religion, but you get to schedule whatever you like on Saturday, because my religion doesn't matter???
Yeah, whatever.
Your situation really burns me up, too. Those poor kids. I really hope you can go on that trip--on WHATEVER day works.
posted
I don't know if I would go so far as to call it religious rule. Even families that aren't particularly religious like to have Sunday as a family day. Especially since Saturday holds so many activities, because most faiths in this country do consider Sunday the Sabbath.
I don't think she addressed the issue appropriately. But, since she is generally a very good superintendant, a good discussion ending in understanding would most likely leave all sides feeling better. . .
Posts: 77 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: I don't know if I would go so far as to call it religious rule. Even families that aren't particularly religious like to have Sunday as a family day. Especially since Saturday holds so many activities, because most faiths in this country do consider Sunday the Sabbath.
Just because something is practiced by majority, doesn't make it okay to inflict on the minority. It most certainly is a religious rule, based on a religious idea. Whether or not that idea is correct or not, or popular or not, really doesn't matter.
Hey, I'm all for fairness. No public school activities on Sunday? Okay. Then no Friday Night games or activities either in respect for the jews and the adventists. And nothing to interfere with other faith's holy days either. But eventually, it gets ridiculous, doesn't it? So the real fair thing to do is let people who can't go--no matter if they keep Sunday or Saturday or Wednesday, whatever--make it up later, and in the case of "fun" trips that can't be made up--too bad, so sad.
That means, that if there are SUNDAY-KEEPERS who won't let their children go on the trip, fine, they can't go. This has happened to PLENTY of SABBATH-KEEPERS over the years. I do not support cancelling public Saturday events anymore than I support cancelling public Sunday events because of religious beliefs.
posted
While I may not agree with how your superintendant put it, I can see that this is a no win argument.
If she were to continue to allow you to use Sunday as the day, those children who do follow under those beliefs that Sunday is the Lord's Day, it might be seen as discriminating against them. (I don't know how, I just know some parents at times are far too whiney.) I could see this scenerio happening, children can't go because of religious reasons... some can. Parents of religious children get angry that you would put this trip on a day where it is known some children couldn't go.
I'm not sure if I'm putting my point out properly, hm... perhaps just summing it up. If you were to go on Sunday, some kids couldn't go. The parents of those kids would then get outraged that you would put a field trip on a day where some children couldn't go. Then it become a flame war of district against parents.
I see that what she did was the best move. By not allowing it on this day, it gets rid of the chances of some being outraged, I suppose.
Lesser of the two evils, I guess.
(How knowledgable where the children of this trip? Is there any chance it could be rescheduled?)
Posts: 1831 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Day one: big poster anouncing the trip at the end of the year.
They have been aware of this trip since being seventh graders watching the eighth grade above them go.
They have had this date for months. Flyers have been sent home to all parents. We have had all permission slips returned. not a single peep about the Sunday issue.
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well... this trip is a work in progress. There has never been anything like this in place before. Last year a very dediceted teacher spend a lot of time creating and getting this trip approved. Last year was the first trip. We went during the school week. Due to circumstances I don't feel like explaining. We were told to adjust the trip to a weekeknd. No big deal. We knew that going into this year's planning. We sort of took advantage of the system a little bit last year using the trip as a "educational" experience and so we had no problem adjusting.
So we talked a great deal about the date. We spoke with students and sent flyers home and even spoke with some administrators. At the end of the year there were lots of conflicts with other teaching obligations during the weekends we were looking at. Since there was no objection at the time and we could find nothing telling us we couldn't (sure we knew we probably would have some complaints but nothing said we couldn't) we schedled for the sunday and went ahead with things. Our principal was aware of our date and only as we began really getting moving on tickets and transportation did the compaints begin.
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not sure we're getting both sides of the issue here. I find it highly unlikely that a superintendent who is described as reasonable and tolerant, and highly personable, would suddenly and cruelly cancel an activity that had been planned for months, and especially without any warning. Something is just not adding up.
I'm curious as to what the superintendant's side of the story is. It might be possible that she is getting pressure from other sources, she might have already expressed reservations, etc, etc.
As someone who would have concerns putting the trip on Sunday, if I was in the superintendant's place, I would have been voicing my reservations way ahead of time. I find it odd that this apparently didn't happen. I'm also surprised that not a single parent is reported as having issues with having the trip on Sunday. Even giving that most Americans don't observe the Sabbath quite as Mormons and other such religions do, the lack of dissenters is...troubling.
I'm not saying that you are lying - you sound quite reasonable - but there are some inconsistencies. And these issues and the accompanying motivations are usually quite complex and not one-sided.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
That being said, I would still side with those having the trip on Sunday. Unless the proscription against Sunday activity is shared by a significant majority of the community, it should be allowed. I wouldn't let my daughter go, because of our religious beliefs - but I understand quite well that they aren't shared by everybody. There were many things that I was left out of as a child because we stuck to what we knew was true. Your beliefs aren't strong if you aren't willing to sacrifice for them and go against the mainstream when necessary.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can understand your reservations here but honestly things are pretty much as I have laid them out. I will point out that it is highly unlikely that the superintendant knew about this before this week. Our principal has been aware of it for some time. The trouble really all started with the bussing issue. We were given the info about no bussing by the guy incharge of all that. We presented the problem to our principal, it went from there to our assistant superintendant. All this was actually ok. Everyone was actually working on finding a solution. Actually the Assistant Superintendant was trying to figure out why we couldn't go on Sunday because as I've mentioned it's not a written guideline in our district handbook. She was actualy on our side. But then yesterday afternoon the problem made it's way to the Superintendant and she immediately said, No. Sunday is the Lord's day and you can go that day." When we heard this from our principal and expressed our concern with that reasoning she told us "Don't go there with her." In referenec to our Super and her beliefs. I'm just not the type of person who "won't go there" when I think "there" is wrong.
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Especially since Saturday holds so many activities, because most faiths in this country do consider Sunday the Sabbath.
Sorry? I think only Christians do -- and not all of them.
If you meant to say that the majority of religious people in this country feel that way, you are undoubtedly correct.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Plus, for Christians, the sabbath day is sunday because Bishops in - what, the 2nd? or the 3rd century CE said so. or the pope. it was sometime before the 5th century, of that I'm quite certain. so on the authority of your Catholic Church, you guys switched the days early on so that churchgoers wouldn't be confused and go to Shul instead - or it made it easier to pray as a Jew on saturday and a Christian on sunday, I'm not sure of the reasoning, whatever works for you :-D.
Posts: 58 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
You know, the hypocritical attitude that some Sunday-Keeping Christians have really bothers me, because they would like to cancel Sunday activities for everybody. I missed out on a lot of Saturday activities. Nobody shed a tear for me.
Of course, I still get ticked off at the Blue Laws. If the mall and store owners want to open their stores before noon on Sunday, they should be able to. Just another case of someone's religion being shoved down everyone else's throat.
posted
Sunday is not the "sabbath day," at least not for Catholics. The sabbath day was a particular Jewish custom, one which Gentile converts were not required to keep. It's not that the sabbath was "moved" to Sunday, but rather Sunday was picked for weekly gatherings and worship because it was the day of the Resurrection.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
That would be the correct way to say it, yes. But there are a lot of Christians out there, maybe just Protestants, I don't know, who actually believe that the Sabbath was changed in the Bible to Sunday.
But what day isn't really the issue.. The issue here is imposing your choice on others. It's wrong, and done all too frequently in a public school setting.
posted
You could likely go around the Supe's back to the school board...but given the warning you got "not to go there" with the superintendant, you might want to consider how important this is to you and how far you want to go with it. Unfortunately, and this usually works on the other side of the political/religious divide, school administrators aren't really keen on people who stand up for what they believe when it differs from their own beliefs. Me da's a teacher and a school administrator and he's bounced around a lot because he fights for his principles. Not that I'm saying that you shouldn't fight for your principles, but evaluate the potential cost here. Is it worth your job, your career, being blackballed, etc? This does happen in academia quite a bit. And yes, I certainly think it is wrong.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well... We gave up on the Sunday trip. We have since resolved the problem by being allowed to schedule the trip for the friday after school lets out. This works out for all our team and although we will have to meet with the kids to discuss the change of plans I feel that this will be a better date anyways.
Although I still disagree with the resoning behind the refusal to allow us to take the trip on Sunday, I'm at least glad that we have worked it out.
Posts: 1294 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
