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Author Topic: A Question for Card
trance
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Since this board is "discussions about OSC" I think it would be acceptable to ask a question of curious thought here. Semi-personal for him I guess. I watch this Christain show called 7th Heaven and I'm not sure if you've heard of it since your of another religion but an incident got me thinking what you would do in a similar incident being proud of your religion and a resonable/respectable person. The the question the show got me thinking is: what would you do if your son or daughter (a practicing Mormon I assume) got engaged to a Jew and wanted to convert suddenly?
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Nell Gwyn
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quote:
Originally posted by trance:
I watch this Christain show called 7th Heaven and I'm not sure if you've heard of it since your of another religion

Um. Mormons are also Christians. Just sayin'.
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CStroman
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quote:
Well, I imagine first he would completely disown them and then send the secret squad of Mormon asassins to hunt them down and terminate them for betraying the faith.
Ahem...you forgot to mention that we...er..I mean...THOSE Mormon Asassins are controlled by the "M&M's" which is an acronym for "Mormon Mafiosos". BTW, my code name within the organization is "Porter R."
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sarcasticmuppet
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I think 7th Heaven is lame, but to answer your question (for myself, not for Mr. Card), I don't think I'd ever disown them, but it would probably hurt a lot.
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Blayne Bradley
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Ok WHAT happened in that episode. I only saw 2 or 3 eps ever.
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Bokonon
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And for the record, some people can marry interfaith, without converting (as I have done).

-Bok

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quidscribis
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And as I have done. I'm LDS, but my husband is Muslim.
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Orson Scott Card
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Interfaith marriages are difficult, but not impossible; some lead to conversion in one direction or the other, some remain interfaith throughout. However, when the parents aren't united in the same religion, it's hard to raise the kids in a consistent way; usually they end up religiously less rooted.

Leaving the church is one thing - converting to marry someone; drifting away because of loss of faith or choice of lifestyle; it would be hard to take, because of what I know about the Church and what such a choice would imply about my child's seriousness. The only one that would absolutely break my heart is if a child of mine became one of those hostile apostates. I've known several of them, and their attacks on the church are never what they try to make them seem (i.e., they are never mere "dissidents" who are "persecuted" by the church); but the heartbreak there would be because I could only take such behavior as an attack on my wife and me by a very angry and bitter child. Watching one prominent apostate recently as she tore up her family during her father's final illness, exploiting them to make money with a sad little book full of lies and politically correct cant, showed me what it's like.

But that's really personal, in the end, not religious.

It's not about "going to hell" - if a child of mine could actually sincerely convert to another faith, I would blame myself for having done such a bad job of teaching them our doctrine and involving them in the practice of the faith. A Mormon who has actually been taught the true, core doctrines (not just the folk doctrines that are so weirdly prevalent) would have a hard time even taking seriously most competing theologies; I don't mean this as a slight to other religions, many of which have centuries of theological history, but on core questions that have never been answered to my satisfaction in any philosophical system, least of all any based on Plato, as so many are, the foundational revelations of Mormonism provide complete, clear, workable understanding. So such a conversion would simply baffle me, as in: What are they thinking? Weren't they paying attention? <grin>

As for the Mormons/Christians thing, it's a double-edged sword.

If by "Christian" you mean "believes in the divinity of Christ and his sacrifice to save humankind from sin and death" then Mormons are not just Christian, but a lot more seriously Christian than the most prominent schools of Christian theology today.

But if by "Christian" you mean "believes in theology based on the neoplatonic view of God as expressed in the Nicene creed," then no, we Mormons aren't part of that. Joseph Smith really did restore the pre-neoplatonic view of Christ that is far closer to the doctrines of what is called "the primitive Church." All serious theological histories recognize the shift in core doctrines during the first and second centuries CE; they are likely to call it "development" or "growth" or "maturing," but the meaning is the same: The view of God revealed in the earliest patristic writings is very different from the view of God propounded later and ever since - you know, the version of God that owes more to the neoplatonic spin on Plato's "Symposium" than to anything in the gospels.

By the way, some Mormons are under the impression that it is specifically the Nicene Creed we have a problem with. It's not. NEITHER Arius nor Athanasius taught a doctrine that had any close relationship to either our doctrine or a literal reading of the gospels; Christianity had been hellenized at least a century before their great controversy.

Mormonism is a successful de-westernizing of Christianity - stripping away Plato and isolating us, philosophically, from western culture's fundamental premises. We are, without quite realizing it ourselves, an Eastern religion with Jesus Christ at the center of it, hiding out, as it were, in the midst of the West.

So when people separate us from what is generally perceived to be "Christianity," there are sound reasons for doing it. We are far too Christ-centered to be lumped into the general tradition.

However, most of the time when people speak of us as "not Christian," they are echoing a propaganda campaign designed to discredit us. That is, there is no attempt to recognize the philosophical differences, which ultimately would work to our advantage; instead, the "Mormons aren't Christians" label is intended to make Christians reject our teachings because presumably we don't accept the saving grace of Jesus Christ. And THAT charge is simply false. We are absolutely centered in Christ, and to imply otherwise about us reveals either ignorance of our teachings and practices or ... malice. It's obvious that the founding post of this thread had no malice in it - it is simply an echo of what people hear from their ministers. Just remember that ministers have a vested interest in discrediting Mormonism, and remember that the best place to find out what people actually believe is from them, and not from their enemies.

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Superprime
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I am actually glad to hear this, as all my life I've had the 'Mormons don't believe in Christ's divinity' thing shoved down my throat. Maybe it's because I'm a Baptist living in Alabama, the Bible Belt, where if you don't sing from 'the red book' then you aren't Christian. I've never held anything against Mormons myself, but to admit that to the people I worship with would be like excommunicating myself. So I am glad you enlightened us on this point, thank you.
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TomDavidson
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SP, it's worth noting that when people say "Mormons don't believe in Christ's divinity," the big issue is often not the definition of "Christ," but the definition of "divinity." Mormon divinity is very unlike mainstream Christian divinity.
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Lisa
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I would hope that any non-Jew who got engaged to a Jew would be talked out of it by their family.

I'd be willing to have them use any or all of the outrageous lies that have been told about Jews over the centuries if the end result was to prevent the wedding. I mean from horns to baking matza with the blood of Christian children to the bloody Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Whatever works.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
SP, it's worth noting that when people say "Mormons don't believe in Christ's divinity," the big issue is often not the definition of "Christ," but the definition of "divinity." Mormon divinity is very unlike mainstream Christian divinity.

As I understand it, the Christian view of God's omnipotence lies somewhere between the Mormon view and the Jewish view.
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Superprime
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
SP, it's worth noting that when people say "Mormons don't believe in Christ's divinity," the big issue is often not the definition of "Christ," but the definition of "divinity." Mormon divinity is very unlike mainstream Christian divinity.

How so? See, like I said, I have been nigh brainwashed by living where I do, so my view of any other religions is distorted. I'm not saying I'm not a Baptist, I do believe that way, I just don't like the way Baptists say that everything else is totally unacceptable. So I really don't know the difference between Mormon divinity and, wel let's just call it Baptist divinity.
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Goo Boy
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This is not a question for OSC necessarily, but for anyone knowledgeable about the LDS faith who would care to enlighten me, either through a post here or through an e-mail:

Huh?

[Wink]

I mean, I am not (evidently) well-read enough to comprehend this, though I have read widely in "traditional" Christian theology/philosophy and history. I am aware of the hellenic influences on Christianity, but this is the first time I've seen anybody describe LDS as a step away from that.

You wouldn't have to worry about deprogramming me (much) because all I know about LDS is what I have read here and in Card's books (including Storyteller in Zion and Saints).

And please don't anybody send me an e-mail chastising me for asking and telling me to pray, as seems to happen every time I post in a thread asking people to explain their beliefs to me. I have prayed; so far the answer seems to be "figure it out for yourself." [Smile]

I promise I intend no disrespect toward anybody's religion, and if any comes across, it is unintentional.

I have been on a search for a few years now to figure out exactly what I believe. I've become more and more convinced lately that "traditional" Christianity isn't it. I've always been under the impression that Mormonism isn't it either, but perhaps my understanding is incomplete.

Specifically, do Mormons have a different view of why Jesus's sacrifice was necessary and what it accomplished than "mainstream" Christians do?

-Icarus

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Superprime:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
SP, it's worth noting that when people say "Mormons don't believe in Christ's divinity," the big issue is often not the definition of "Christ," but the definition of "divinity." Mormon divinity is very unlike mainstream Christian divinity.

How so? See, like I said, I have been nigh brainwashed by living where I do, so my view of any other religions is distorted. I'm not saying I'm not a Baptist, I do believe that way, I just don't like the way Baptists say that everything else is totally unacceptable. So I really don't know the difference between Mormon divinity and, wel let's just call it Baptist divinity.
Geoff Card wrote:

quote:

In the case of Mormons, we differ from many Judeo-Christian traditions in that we do not believe in creation ex nihilo. We believe that all matter and the raw stuff of intelligence have existed for eternity, uncreatable and undestroyable, and that God found them and gave them shape. God also has existed for eternity, though not always in His present condition.

I'm sure there's more to it than that, but that right there is a major difference between Mormonism and other religions, no?
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TomDavidson
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quote:

I believe one major difference lies in the belief of the nature of divinity.

*nod* Another huge issue is that of omnipotence. As the Mormon God is not always assumed to have created the universe, the classical Problem of Evil (and the necessity of sacrifice) doesn't really bother 'em as much.
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Minerva
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So who/what created the matter for God to find?

I'm Jewish, so I don't have a lot of background on Mormon beliefs.

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mr_porteiro_head
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Geoff said:
quote:
We believe that all matter and the raw stuff of intelligence have existed for eternity, uncreatable and undestroyable, and that God found them and gave them shape.

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Scooter
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Who created matter? If you say "God" then one must ask, "who created God?" If you say that matter was organized rather than created by God, then you can ask, "who created matter?" Either way, nobody offers (nor can they IMO) specific explanations that really go back that far--hence there are mysteries no matter what path you take. However, I believe Mormon theology presents many more details to some of those mysteries than what I have observed from other Christian faiths. In fact, other Christians have criticized Mormoms for having too many answers--thus (goes their logic), they don't rely enough on faith.

I have also been told the the Book of Mormon is too Christ-focused. How is that for irony?

I am unfamiliar with "Problem of Evil"--sounds interesting.

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Scooter
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Alright, so I skimmed a little on the "Problem of Evil" and in a nutshell it is kind of like exploring the question, "can God create a rock that he can't lift?" (that's not the question, but it's similarly paradoxical)

I suppose the point Tom is making is that Mormons see the existence and allowance of evil to persist as a means to an end--as part of a necessary process, as painful as it might be. Do other Christians see it differently? Isn't the question in essence an aetheistic line of reasoning?

Admittedly, I am probably missing the boat on the whole thing, but that's what I quicly gleaned.

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Christy
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quote:

I suppose the point Tom is making is that Mormons see the existence and allowance of evil to persist as a means to an end--as part of a necessary process, as painful as it might be.

No. I mean that Mormons (and here I'm generalizing, mind you, because one point on which the LDS church is very firm is that a lot of this is speculation on their part) do not believe that God has the power to eliminate evil or suffering without also eliminating free will, and thus acts to minimize those in the long run without being able to do away with them altogether. This view of God -- as a deity that did not create the universe, is not classically omnipotent, has a physical form, and is bound by external laws -- is not a traditionally Christian one; it's closer to Greek and Oriental takes on divinity. But it also eliminates a lot of the more obvious paradoxes that normally plague Western religion, like "why would an all-powerful God have created Evil in the first place?"
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Superprime
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Christians do not believe, or at least I don't, that God created evil. I believe God allowed it to be created by humans as an expression of free will. But I do understand the paradoxes, and as far as I know pretty much all God-based religions have this quandary.
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MattB
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quote:
Third, its more like Mormons believe God is bound by his own laws, rather than external laws.
I would disagree. And I'm a Mormon. [Smile] This is actually not that different, theologically, from other Christianities.

quote:
Fourth, omnipotence is such a hard concept. What's the difference between can't and won't? God lacks the power to break his own laws, or will not do it? Mormons believe he has the power but will not do it. So although it would not technically be omnipotent, his limitations are set by himself.
I also disagree with this (kind of the same argument). I believe God is bound by laws not of his own making. I can cite General Authorities if you'd like. [Smile] Or scripture.

Alma 42:13:
quote:
Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
This certainly implies that there are things God cannot do. The first part of the verse seems to describe the laws that governed the necessity of the Atonement; laws which God must follow if his work is to be accomplished. The last part implies that there are things God *could* do, but if he did, an outside force would act upon him.

Indeed, the doctrine of our eternal co-existence with God taught in the Book of Abraham and elsewhere implies that our own distance from God is one of degree rather than kind; in that sense, then, I believe free will is inviolate, that it stems from that part of us which is uncreated, and therefore cannot be abridged - a notion embraced by the council in heaven.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

In the LDS view God is perfect.

Well, no. He's as perfect as possible, which is not in fact axiomatically perfect in the way many religions mean the term.

quote:

Although it may not be a something-out-of-nothing creation, Mormons believe that everything we see around us was in fact made, created, organized or whatever by Him.

But this is not in fact creation. It's organization. Some Mormons believe God assembled the universe, but He built it out of things that were already there -- including intelligences.

quote:

Third, its more like Mormons believe God is bound by his own laws, rather than external laws.

The way I've had it explained to me, the Mormon God must behave in a certain way or He would cease to be "God," definitionally. This is certainly an external law.

quote:

Mormons believe he has the power but will not do it.

Except that most Mormons I know do not believe that God has the ability to override axiomatic truth, which is definitely part of many Christian sects' definition of omnipotence. (In other words, most Mormons to whom I've spoken believe that there are levels to Heaven not because God has created those levels and the qualifications for entry, but because that's just the way the universe works.)
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docmagik
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In our view, the laws are not perfect because a pre-existing god made them so, God is perfect because he is so in line with pre-existing laws.

Morality is absolute, and were God to cease to be moral, he would cease to be God. He could not change morality simply because he wills it so.

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Nell Gwyn
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Icky, I had the same reaction as you on that.

I've never heard the "Mormons aren't Christians" rumor. I'd always been taught that the Mormon church is just a different sect of Christianity. I knew vaguely of the Joseph Smith story, courtesy of US history and world religion classes, but I didn't realize the fundamental LDS beliefs beyond that story were as different from "mainstream" Christianity as it apparently is. My personal definition of "Christian" is "one who believes that Jesus was the Son of God and the Messiah". I'd never considered the Greek philosophies aspect, although that now makes sense.

This is all very intriguing. I also appreciate all the explanations. [Smile]

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Superprime:
Christians do not believe, or at least I don't, that God created evil. I believe God allowed it to be created by humans as an expression of free will. But I do understand the paradoxes, and as far as I know pretty much all God-based religions have this quandary.

That's kind of funny, because Isaiah (45:7) explicitly says that God created evil.
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Scott R
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Not to make excuses for God-- but in the context of the verse starLisa mentioned, I think evil is synonymous with affliction or trouble.

Superprime is talking about evil as a moral deficiency.

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Goo Boy
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My problem is not with the omnipotence or God (I think the contradictions people point out are merely semantic issues) or with the "Problem of Evil." My feelings on Evil are inspired by Augustine, who was an apologist at his time, so they're infused with this Hellenic worldview (and therefore, I now suppose, rather different from those of Mormon theology.) Basically, I don't believe that Evil is a thing, and therefore, I don't believe it is created. therefore, God didn't create evil. Rather, I see evil as being like a direction--the opposite of Good. Therefore, while Evil does exist (at least, semantically) it is not created. (Kind of like how there's really no such thing as "cold." Cold is the absence of heat.)

This belief also makes me feel that good Christians, Taoists, Jews, and secular humanists are all good--"Saveable" if there is a heaven--because while they may place a different entity or value at the center of their journey toward good, the things most of us value are close enough to each other that we are generally headed in the same direction anyway. (I can't quite make that make sense in words. I can actually draw it better than I can say it.) (And yes, this is all very Platonic and assumed the existence of a perfect, ideal Good, which we just can't know perfectly.)

(This is why I reject any worldview that says that salvation exists but is only offered to members of one particular group.)

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Kent
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Well one thing that is interesting about Mormon belief is that everyone gets out of Hell as they accept Christ (whether in this life or the next) and enjoy the presence of a member of the Godhead.
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Superprime
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Not to make excuses for God-- but in the context of the verse starLisa mentioned, I think evil is synonymous with affliction or trouble.

Superprime is talking about evil as a moral deficiency.

Yes indeed, I believe the verses in question state that God creates strife. And I also agree that Evil isn't really created, I just meant that by allowing Man to have free will, Evil was 'created' when Man chose not to follow Good. An absense of Good does indeed equal Evil.
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tern
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quote:
But this is not in fact creation. It's organization. Some Mormons believe God assembled the universe, but He built it out of things that were already there -- including intelligences.

If this is so, then what is there that has been created? An artist cannot be held to have created a work of art, but rather took existing materials - paint, canvas, etc, and "organized" it.

I find the whole Mormon/Christian thing amusing...I'm really not worried about whether or not other people think I'm a Christian - rather, I'm worried about what the Savior thinks I am.

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tern
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One of the definitions of evil I have heard used in the Church is that evil is anything that doesn't lead you to God.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:

Although it may not be a something-out-of-nothing creation, Mormons believe that everything we see around us was in fact made, created, organized or whatever by Him.

But this is not in fact creation. It's organization. Some Mormons believe God assembled the universe, but He built it out of things that were already there -- including intelligences.
I don't get that. What makes God any greater than those intelligences, then?

In Judaism, we believe that the three words used for creating in the Bible have specific meanings.
  • Bara, which is usually translated as "create", means creation ex nihilo.
  • Yatzar, which is usually translated as "formed", means creation from raw material that already exists.
  • And Asah, which is usually translated as "made", means something made from already formed things.
We believe that everything, all concepts, all entities, all everything, are creations of God. And not only that they were created by God, but that they are held in existence by God's will, so that creation is an ongoing thing.

The idea of anything existing that wasn't created by God... it just doesn't make any sense in our frame of reference.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What makes God any greater than those intelligences, then?
Ambition, maybe? *shrug* Seriously, I assume Mormons more familiar with this line of inquiry could answer that one.
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A Rat Named Dog
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quote:
What makes God any greater than those intelligences, then?
God doesn't need to have created something to be greater than it, any more than I need to be the father of a particular child in order to be older, wiser, and more experienced than that child. The difference between God and some common intelligence is in some ways analogous to that. He is greater because He has made Himself greater over the course of His infinite life ... while the rest of us spent that same eternity lying in stagnation until He arrived to show us a better way.

And I should correct Tom's assertion that some Mormons believe that God created the world from existing material. While I'm sure there are dissenters, as there are on every point of doctrine, the idea that matter and intelligence, by their very nature, cannot be created or destroyed is stated very clearly in Mormon scripture. It isn't that we believe that God is somehow limited by the fact that He does not create things ex nihilo. Rather, we believe that creation ex nihilo is a fundamentally impossible act, much like creating a rock so large God cannot move it [Smile] God cannot do it, but then again, neither can anyone else.

[ September 09, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]

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MattB
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quote:
I don't get that. What makes God any greater than those intelligences, then?
A fair description of what an 'intelligence' might be like are the auias in Xenocide - that is, alone they are sparks of self-awareness and motivation, but nothing else. Embodied auias, though, are something else again.

In order to develop, these intelligences need God to organize them, and guide them down the same path of embodiment that he has traveled. This is simply because he has done it, through eternities of development, and gained the knowledge of how to do it, and we have not.


Edit: Or what Geoff said.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

And I should correct Tom's assertion that some Mormons believe that God created the world from existing material. While I'm sure there are dissenters, as there are on every point of doctrine, the idea that matter and intelligence, by their very nature, cannot be created or destroyed is stated very clearly in Mormon scripture.

I put it that way only because there are are Mormon dissenters on that very topic on this board, and I didn't want to provoke 'em. [Smile]
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Scooter
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quote:
Originally posted by Christy:
quote:

I suppose the point Tom is making is that Mormons see the existence and allowance of evil to persist as a means to an end--as part of a necessary process, as painful as it might be.

No. I mean that Mormons (and here I'm generalizing, mind you, because one point on which the LDS church is very firm is that a lot of this is speculation on their part) do not believe that God has the power to eliminate evil or suffering without also eliminating free will, and thus acts to minimize those in the long run without being able to do away with them altogether. This view of God -- as a deity that did not create the universe, is not classically omnipotent, has a physical form, and is bound by external laws -- is not a traditionally Christian one; it's closer to Greek and Oriental takes on divinity. But it also eliminates a lot of the more obvious paradoxes that normally plague Western religion, like "why would an all-powerful God have created Evil in the first place?"
Actually, that is what I was saying, just not in so many words (though I realize I was being very vague).
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TomDavidson
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Well, there's a further caveat, Scooter, which is that Mormons by and large do not believe that God has the POWER to eliminate Evil, since the act of denying Free Will is regarded as a higher Evil. Unlike many Christians, Mormons do not believe that God gets to decide what is Evil and what isn't, and therefore Free Will is a Good regardless of whether or not God finds it inconvenient.
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Kent
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The main point I wish to make is that Mormons do not have "theology" as is the norm in other Christian organizations. We do not have divinity schools or vote on "definitions" or policies. Since the beginning of Mormonism there have been different views of the attributes of God.

Ultimately, the thoughts on this board do represent what a lot of Mormons believe. I recently bought a newly published book, Exploring Mormon Thought: The Attributes of God, by Blake Ostler. I have never found a book that explains Mormon belief in "philosophical/theological" language before. It is serious reading and it could even make it on to TomDavidson's philosophy book list.

For those with less time, I also want to mention this excellent resource which will give you a quick treatment of creation Ex Nihilo and the problem of Evil by Blake Ostler as well. Tom, I hope you have a chance to read Ostler; he is an incredibly prolific and cogent writer.

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MattB
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Blake Ostler rules. [Smile] He's not really representative of the established leadership of the church, though. To the extent that there's the classic disconnect between what most adherents to a religion believe and what its theologians speculate, it exists between Ostler and many Mormons. The foreknowledge question is the classic problem here - Ostler (and I) doesn't believe God knows the future. While there are statements by church leaders supporting this position, there are also statements by some (notably Neal Maxwell and Bruce McConkie) against it. So, while I think Ostler's mostly dead on, other Mormons might disagree.

By the way, Ostler's heir to a rather sparse chain of formal Mormon theologians. He's probably the most serious one since Sterling McMurrin, and before him BH Roberts. And that's probably it for the twentieth century.

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Occasional
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I believe there is good reason why so few theologins (in the classical sense) exist in Mormonism. In some ways it relates to what OSC said above. The LDS religion, specifically as developed by Joseph Smith, rejects discovering ideas about God through logical thought process. You might be able to come to a personal understanding about God by use of philosophy, but never develop a "Truth."

That is because Mormonism was founded on the belief in Direct Revelation for answers to cosmic questions. Joseph Smith wanted answers from God's mouth, or no answers at all. Not that he rejected doing a little dabbling in conjecturing based on what was recieved. He did a lot of that himself, and stated he was doing such. However, he did reject hanging substantial theological ideas on those conjectures (or philosophy) without acknowledging the tentative basis.

And that is where Mormonism and theologizing part company. As MattB has stated, there have been few Mormon theologins. None of them (B. H. Roberts and Orson Pratt included who were Priesthood Authorities) have ever acted that role in official capacity. Mormon theology has developed through Authoritative Declarations based on statements of a few individuals. All other considerations are considered personal opinions and hersay.

Interesting enough, some Mormons take personal opinions and hersay as official doctrine. While other Mormons take official doctrine as personal opinions and hersay. Sometimes it can be hard to say what is what. Usually, however, its more about truely believing in the authority of prophets to recieve revelation or not.

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RunningBear
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As a person who cannot honestly state that they are a member of any given church, I have to say that Mormonism(?) is the truest of the western religions I know of. I have long believed that Eastern religions were more succinct and meant to help people rather than indoctrinate them as many western religions do. It is my view that Mormons are an Eastern religion (Thank You Mr. Card) based in the West. Not a single person other than my father and Mr. Card has made this connection that I know of and the fact that Mr. Card is a member of this religion speaks loudly to me.


And now that I have said that, I will speak to the topic of this forum thread. I believe that a person can marry any person from any religion and not have to compromise anything. As the great philosopher Calvin once said "A good compromise leaves everybody mad", but in a marriage this is not necessary, because as long as the two have their core beliefs and sense of morals then they can get along because in almost every religion, those morals are similar if not the same.


Now I will speak to starLisa: your statement that
quote:

""I would hope that any non-Jew who got engaged to a Jew would be talked out of it by their family.

I'd be willing to have them use any or all of the outrageous lies that have been told about Jews over the centuries if the end result was to prevent the wedding. I mean from horns to baking matza with the blood of Christian children to the bloody Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Whatever works.""

Why on Earth would you want to say this? From what I can tell, you are Jewish, or atleast versed in Jewish beliefs and why do you have such a vehement belief that religious intermarrying should not happen, or should not happen between Jews and non-Jews???

I am finished with my replies and statement for this thread but here as some definitions that I have.


These two definitions below are my definitions which are not taken from a dictionary but rather are a compilation in my head from several differing sources that have been acquired throughout my life. I could write more about this but I don’t have enough room to write a book.

Evil, as a definition, means old, In the Catholic-Christian early religion the old druidic and pagan religions were considered devil worshippers and whatnot which was not true. So all these things that are called evil in the very early texts means that they were old, or ancient.

Sin, as a definition means falling back on the path to heaven/enlightenment/Nirvana whatever. It means that when someone commits a sin, they are falling back on a crusade to reach heaven.

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RunningBear
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[Hat] I tip my hat off to you Mr. Card
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Occasional
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quote:
Mormonism is a successful de-westernizing of Christianity - stripping away Plato and isolating us, philosophically, from western culture's fundamental premises. We are, without quite realizing it ourselves, an Eastern religion with Jesus Christ at the center of it, hiding out, as it were, in the midst of the West.
Although I have heard this sentiment from Mormons and non-Mormons alike, I am not sure what this means exactly. What is an "Eastern religion" that that makes it NOT a "Western religion" in approach or expression? To be honest, the closest thing I have heard non-Mormons (including Harold Bloom) say is that Mormonism is a return to Judaic Christianity.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by RunningBear:
Now I will speak to starLisa: your statement that
quote:

""I would hope that any non-Jew who got engaged to a Jew would be talked out of it by their family.

I'd be willing to have them use any or all of the outrageous lies that have been told about Jews over the centuries if the end result was to prevent the wedding. I mean from horns to baking matza with the blood of Christian children to the bloody Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Whatever works.""

Why on Earth would you want to say this? From what I can tell, you are Jewish, or atleast versed in Jewish beliefs and why do you have such a vehement belief that religious intermarrying should not happen, or should not happen between Jews and non-Jews???

RunningBear, yes, I am Jewish. You have to understand... in Judaism, there are laws that pertain to individuals, and there are laws that pertain to Jews as an aggregate. In addition, when a commandment is violated, it can impact on the individual or on the community in different degrees.

There is probably not a single thing that a Jew can do which is as damaging and offensive to the Jewish People as intermarriage. Nothing else even comes close. Even apostasizing and "converting" to another religion only comes a close second.

If a Jewish man marries a non-Jewish woman, their children aren't Jewish. If a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man, their children are Jewish, but they are cut off from much of their heritage. And of course, there's no way a Jewish child can be raised to have any respect for Judaism when one of that child's parents isn't even Jewish.

See, it isn't just that we don't like it. God commanded it. Now it's true that God commanded a great many things. There are Jews who eat non-kosher food. That's bad. There are Jews who violate the Sabbath. That's really bad. There are Jews who would eat a ham sandwich on Yom Kippur (you're not allowed to eat or drink anything on Yom Kippur). That's extraordinarily bad. But all of those are individual sins, and all can be dealt with on an individual level. None of them are necessarily lasting. Intermarriage creates what we call a bechiya l'dorot, or a weeping for the generations.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Occasional:
To be honest, the closest thing I have heard non-Mormons (including Harold Bloom) say is that Mormonism is a return to Judaic Christianity.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. "Judaic Christianity" died out because it was inherently unworkable. Christianity denies the vast majority of the Judaic tradition it came out of, and needed to be grafted onto non-Jewish concepts in order to survive.
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Blayne Bradley
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woah.... thats something I never really saw before.

But I highly doubt that just because the father is non jewish the son/duaghters are denied their heritage for all you'ld know the mother only agreed to marry on the condition that the children are raised as jews. I know this happened in some of the fiction I've read, but it must've happened in real lfe too.

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Icarus
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quote:
And of course, there's no way a Jewish child can be raised to have any respect for Judaism when one of that child's parents isn't even Jewish.
So you believe that nobody who is not Jewish has any respect for Judaism?
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