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It's not the first time. I was first intoduced to Ender's Game by my brother who had to read it in high school many years ago.
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I had to read it in 9th grade. It was at a private Catholic school. I can't believe its been 11 years!
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I read it in 9th grade, too. It was either that or some horribly boring-sounding book about the American frontier.
My teacher said, "You all have the option of reading XXXX by XXXXX. It's set in the 1800s and is about a family struggling to get by. Or there's this other book about genius kids who are trained to be generals in outer space."
Only one person read "XXXX" (I know, what a crappy title!) and only because he was out of town when books were handed out, and there were no more copies of EG left.
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The younger sister of a friend of mine was assigned to read the book as part of summer homework this year.
I found it interesting that the teacher who assigned her the book was one that I used to have as a freshman, and during the year I was in that class, I introduced Ender's Game to that teacher.
So it may very well be that my friend's sister and dozens of other freshmen in her advanced english classes have now been introduced to Card due to me simply having recommended the book to the teacher long ago.
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I am sorry, but that is just wrong. It should be on the sixth-grade reading list. Better late than never, I guess.
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My cousin had a list of books to choose from to read over the summer. Ender's Game was on it and he picked it. I was so jealous, I wish I could read EG for school. He's a senior, though. Not a Freshman.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I am sorry, but that is just wrong. It should be on the sixth-grade reading list. Better late than never, I guess.
EG isn't exactly written at a college reading level, but there is a heavy load of content in it to analyze and write perspectives on. So, in other words, it is actually a great book for high schoolers to be reading and and drawing thesis ideas from.
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I know some people who read it in 6th grade, but I wouldn't say it's a book all 6th graders could read. I think 7th to 9th grade is just about right. But you're totally right that it should be read as young as possible. It gets harder to understand the older you get. Posts: 464 | Registered: Jul 2004
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i read it when i was a fourth grader, and i think i understood around 90 percent of it. Im not bragging though, while i do consider myself "gifted" im not insanely smart... so i think it should be a 7th grade maximum level
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How can there be a maximum age to read a book? Or do you mean that by the time one reaches that age they should have no excuse for not understanding it? If so, I think that many 7th graders would still find EG a bit too challenging. I would guess that the average kid would need to be about 13 or 14 (grade 8 or 9) to fully appreciate it.
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I read it in sixth grade. Now, I also read Portriat of the Artist as a Young Man in 8th, and I wouldn't advocate that. I think the Oydssey should be read throughout Middle School, Gilgamesh, the Tempest, Lord of the Flies, the Fixer and Catch-22 in 8th grade; Animal Farm and Life of Pi in 7th grade; and Ender's Game in 6th.
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EG was on the 9th or 10th grade modified reading list... I was in Honors and I was sad that I couldn't read it too.
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I first read it in seventh grade because my cousin was reading EG because it was on his list of books to read for his sixth grade english class.
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quote:I read it in sixth grade. Now, I also read Portriat of the Artist as a Young Man in 8th, and I wouldn't advocate that. I think the Oydssey should be read throughout Middle School, Gilgamesh, the Tempest, Lord of the Flies, the Fixer and Catch-22 in 8th grade; Animal Farm and Life of Pi in 7th grade; and Ender's Game in 6th.
I think you drastically overestimate the intelligence, and/or understimate the apathy, of the average American student.
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I actually read Speaker for the Dead freshman year as part of our Science Fiction section in my advanced English class. I had never read Ender's Game, and didn't for at least a year afterward. The quartet wasn't finished at the time either, which meant that I hated the series once I did finish reading. Xenocide just leaves so much unanswered. It took years before I was willing to condsider going back and then only because Ender's Shadow had come out. I reread the original books and discovered Children of the Mind then. I much prefered the series as an adult. By then I had studied religion for years and had a better understanding and world view to compare it too. Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I think you drastically overestimate the intelligence, and/or understimate the apathy, of the average American student.
Then again, apathy can lead some students to read real classics. My brother's senior year in High School, he was required to do one book report a month. I know he read The Odyssey, Les Miserables and The Color Purple all because he was too lazy to go to the library, they were on the list of options and we owned copies of them. Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: I think the Oydssey should be read throughout Middle School, Gilgamesh, the Tempest, Lord of the Flies, the Fixer and Catch-22 in 8th grade; Animal Farm and Life of Pi in 7th grade; and Ender's Game in 6th.
That's an interesting list. I know I did Lord of the Flies and Animal Farm in 8th grade. However, Gilgamesh wasn't until freshman year and that was for the accelerated English classes. I never did read Ender's Game for school.
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Actually, Ender's Game IS written at a college reading level. It only feels like it isn't because it doesn't require a professor to decode the plain meaning of the events for you. But there are no vocabulary concessions and the ethical and character dilemmas are hardly the normal fare for literature aimed at younger readers (though this is true of much of the best of YA lit as well).
The standard method of studying literature in college doesn't work with Ender's Game, but not because Ender's Game is SIMPLER than the literary novels; it simply pays no attention to the rules that make a novel "literary." Those who think that "literary" writing is by nature superior to all other kinds of fiction writing, even when the literary writing is awful, will always think of novels like Ender's Game as being "beneath" college-English-level reading. But professors who can think outside the box have found that there's a great deal to study and discuss about the book. Heck, there are even "symbols" and "metaphors," though honest ones that weren't plotted out in advance <grin>.
Meanwhile, I am still worried about having EG be required reading. Something about being compelled to read a book - about knowing that adult authority figures approve of it so much they'll MAKE teenagers read it - takes away the thrill of thinking you've found something that others didn't know about. You can hardly run to your friends and say, I just read this terrific book, you have to read it! when in fact they really DO have to read it because they are taking the same class ...
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quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Heck, there are even "symbols" and "metaphors," though honest ones that weren't plotted out in advance <grin>.
Thank you for that line right there. Reminds me of the short story White Heron the entire Freshman class in my college had to write a final paper on to pass English 102. It was absolute drivel. Every other word was a symbol or metapor for something, and was obviously "plotted out in advance". I got in trouble with the campus police for writing in the internet bulletin about a proposed mass burning of the book on the quad. However my English teacher approved.
quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Meanwhile, I am still worried about having EG be required reading. Something about being compelled to read a book - about knowing that adult authority figures approve of it so much they'll MAKE teenagers read it - takes away the thrill of thinking you've found something that others didn't know about. You can hardly run to your friends and say, I just read this terrific book, you have to read it! when in fact they really DO have to read it because they are taking the same class ...
I might not have discovered you otherwise. I had no other friends who read sci fi to introduce me, and your fantasy books may have otherwise scared me off never really having enjoyed others before.
What I like about making teens read certain books, is opening them up to things that they might not normally read. My fiance is a teacher and she says a lot of her kids are just re-reading the Harry Potter books over and over again, instead of reading anything new.
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Heck, there are even "symbols" and "metaphors," though honest ones that weren't plotted out in advance <grin>.
I always felt this way when we had to look for the symbols in our books. Have the time I kept thinking how do we know this is what the author was thinking when he wrote it. Makes me think of "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield where he hires the author to write his paper and then the professer gives him an F and tells him that the paper could not possibly be what the author was thinking. Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orson Scott Card: Meanwhile, I am still worried about having EG be required reading. Something about being compelled to read a book - about knowing that adult authority figures approve of it so much they'll MAKE teenagers read it - takes away the thrill of thinking you've found something that others didn't know about. You can hardly run to your friends and say, I just read this terrific book, you have to read it! when in fact they really DO have to read it because they are taking the same class ...
Of course, but there's definitely an up side as well. If my brother hadn't had to read EG in school, he never would have recommended it to me, and I never would have recommended it to several of my friends who have also now read and enjoyed it, and so on, and so on.
quote:I always felt this way when we had to look for the symbols in our books. Have the time I kept thinking how do we know this is what the author was thinking when he wrote it. Makes me think of "Back to School" with Rodney Dangerfield where he hires the author to write his paper and then the professer gives him an F and tells him that the paper could not possibly be what the author was thinking.
Yeah, I'm sure that if you bring any author into an english class where his/her work is be being discussed, he/she will learn a thing or two about it means. I suppose that every work of art has a life and meaning of its own, independent of the creator.
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I read Ender's game in 5th grade, Moby Dick in 5th grade, Fahrenheit 451 in 6th grade, books by Michael Crichton in 5th grade among so many other ADVANCED BOOKS! I read a college textbook on theories on how dark matter could influence the creation of comets and be the major influence of gravity! The school system gives me books I could have read seven or eight years ago! The teachers cant believe that we understand the material we are reading! Enders Game was a fun little book I read while reading two other books while in seventh grade! It should be required in sixth grade! I wish I knew about it in sixth grade! I wish I knew about it in 5th grade! I was reading tolkien in 3rd grade and thought it was pretty darn good!!! Anne Rice in 7th and 8th grade was pretty easy! Heinlein in fourth grade was nice! I WISH THAT THE INFERNAL TEACHERS HAD GIVEN US HARDER BOOKS THAN THEY DID!!! I am a junior in High School and seniors gape at the fact that I discuss the politics of the Israeli conflict! HYDROELECTRIC DAM THE TEACHERS FOR NOT GIVING EVERYONE THOSE BOOKS! IF THEY DID THEN EVERYONE WHO TRIED COULD HAVE READ THEM! This is a topic I am very passionate about. sixth grade is certainly late enough for Enders Game! I am not trying to act conceited but I have to provide evidence for the low standards of the school system and how that hurts everyone.
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But you, RunningBear, are obviously exceptionally gifted. You have to realize that the vast majority or students simply aren't. Presenting them with material which is too challenging will nine times out of ten result in frustrated and discouraged students, with only one out of ten who rise to the challenge. It may sound harsh, but only some of the students would even try to understand "difficult" material, and even less would actually succeed.
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Reading advanced books isn't just about being able to comprehend the words either. In sixth grade, I would have understood every word of Ender's game and Moby Dick, along with many other much more advanced books, and I did read many of them. It wasn't until I was older and had life experiences to go along with them that I could truly appreciate the writing. I recently reread Around the World in 80 Days. I read that for the first time probably before sixth grade but I didn't truly appreciate the whole of the story then. It has much more meaning for me now and in a few years, there will be more meaning for me in these stories than there are now.
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quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: But you, RunningBear, are obviously exceptionally gifted. You have to realize that the vast majority or students simply aren't. Presenting them with material which is too challenging will nine times out of ten result in frustrated and discouraged students, with only one out of ten who rise to the challenge. It may sound harsh, but only some of the students would even try to understand "difficult" material, and even less would actually succeed.
It seems RunningBear that most probably your particular school system did not do a good job of dealing with it's more advanced students. This isn't true everywhere. Other school systems work hard to identify students who are more advanced and make sure that they are challenged. Public school systems have systematically lowered the standards of grades over the last few years to the point that GPA is no longer significant. It used to be true that a grade of "C" meant average. For many teachers it no longer means that. Many teachers give students higher grades because our standards have been lowered. As a result it can be more difficult to identify students who need to be more challenged.
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quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: But you, RunningBear, are obviously exceptionally gifted. You have to realize that the vast majority or students simply aren't. Presenting them with material which is too challenging will nine times out of ten result in frustrated and discouraged students, with only one out of ten who rise to the challenge. It may sound harsh, but only some of the students would even try to understand "difficult" material, and even less would actually succeed.
It seems RunningBear that most probably your particular school system did not do a good job of dealing with it's more advanced students. This isn't true everywhere. Other school systems work hard to identify students who are more advanced and make sure that they are challenged. Public school systems have systematically lowered the standards of grades over the last few years to the point that GPA is no longer significant. It used to be true that a grade of "C" meant average. For many teachers it no longer means that. Many teachers give students higher grades because our standards have been lowered. As a result it can be more difficult to identify students who need to be more challenged.
My fiance has been instructed by the county that no child shall receive a grade lower than 50%, to make it easier for them to come back from a slump.
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Most public schools don't do an adequate job of finding students who need more challenges. I was lucky enough to go to an elementary school that had an excellent gifted program. From kindergarten onwards, kids could be bumped up as many grades as necessary in math, reading, or writing, in addition to a class that offered critical thinking on all topics. This was a great solution, because it meant that a kindergartener could go to third grade reading/writing and second grade math if they wished to (like I did). Thus, by the time I went to jr. (and now sr.) high school, I was already in advanced math and honors english classes, having been identified early. I think that is the sort of program needed for other public elementary schools that have inadequate programs for the gifted.
As for GPA, I agree with andi that it is no longer a way to identify kids who need more challenges. These days, my teachers tell me, anyone can receive at least a 3.0 simply if they turn in all of their work with a decent effort. And as Stephan noted, many districts want their grading to show that all of their students are getting work done. Our school had 28 valedictorians last year--the senior 4.0ers. Some of them were in below-average classes. Some of them were two years ahead of average. The system is changing.
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"I think you drastically overestimate the intelligence, and/or understimate the apathy, of the average American student." Probably, but I have long ago decided that reality is a crutch fo feeble minds.
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I had to read it in 9th grade as well, and I never looked back. I reqd it like 10 times. Paased the test with a 100 and i was good to go on all the other books. Posts: 37 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I agree that I did not understand the meaning of Moby Dick when I read it in 5th grade. I hated the book and had to put it down after 250(ish) pages and wait a month to start again. I recently read it as a part of my required curriculum and I truly enjoyed it and that is due to a broader understanding of life. I understood its meanings as well as its words. I still think that going through the motions of reading an incredibly hard book at a young age will give you the vocabulary that you can use to better understand less challenging books. The only author I really loved at the time was Tolkien, but reading Crichton helped me understand Mr. Card's books, which are now probably my favorite. I apologize if I do not make much sense but I had to put this in and it is very late.
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It's ridiculous to read Animal Farm in 8th grade advanced English, though (yep, that was my class.) I read it in 4th grade and "got" everything that we discussed in my 8th grade class on the first read-through. If you're going to teach an advanced class, please try not to underestimate the students.
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Exactly. What annoys me is when the required reading lists for both the regular and honors classes are identical. But it is always easier for the advanced kids to read a less-advanced book than for the less-advanced kids to read an advanced book. Probably why districts tend to go with the books that both factions can read easily.
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We didn't have "required reading lists" in my district. There was an approved curricula list for each grade for use during the school year, and teachers chose appropriate books for their class from it. Some books were more advanced, some less. What books you read largely depended on what teacher you had. There was also a summer reading list, and we were sometimes asked to read at least three books from it over the summer-- but we got to choose which one. No, the failings in my English classes are mostly down to the teachers. On the other hand, when I had an excellent teacher (as in 9th grade), I was challenged and invested.
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