posted
I was reading Children of the Mind and I notied something. I've seen scenes dealing with the Tree of Life in at least three book series. Homecoming, the Alvin series and the Ender Series. I haven't really read some of the other series so it might even show up more often then that.
Descolada on Lusitania (Speaker for the Dead) Godspokenness on Path (Xenocide) Recolada (Xenocide) Descoladores (Children of the Mind) Volescu's dumb virus (Shadow of the Giant) Everything in (Invasive Procedures) Link between Diggers/Angels (Earthfall) Implied genetic modification of human race to be receptive to the Oversoul (Homecoming series) To minor extent, immunizing the Americas from European viruses (Pastwatch)
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Individuals whose actions affect entire societies and civilizations.
-The founders in Treason. -All the child soldiers who become leaders in the Enderverse. -Gloriously Bright in Xenocide -Locke and Demosthenes (Peter and Valentine) ...And I'm sure one could come up with other examples.
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While having messiah-like figures is pretty common in fiction in general. Having them be children is pretty much an OSC thing. I'm not saying that as a bad thing, though some do. I like the stories immensely.
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quote:Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer: Sterling, that's a recurring theme in fiction in general.
It's hardly a universal of fiction, or even "heroic" fiction. There are plenty of stories in which the heroes' actions affect only those close to them, or if their struggles reach to the national (planetary, universal...) it's strictly along the lines of "either the hero succeeds, or the nation (planet, universe) is destroyed."
Almost every major character in the Enderverse makes changes that have huge ramifications in their society, but not merely on the "continue/cease to exist" level.
There's also the way they do it... By making public speeches in annonymity. By leveraging their power as national symbols. By adhering to tradtions, after the reason for those traditions has past. By... Academic study, more or less, in the case of Treason. Most of the characters wouldn't be universal, world-changing heroes in most stories. Many of their actions in other stories would be so much background chatter, while the "real" heroes slew their dragons and led their armies and cleverly outmaneuvered enemy fleets.
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I didn't claim it was UNIVERSAL, merely recurring.
Another recurring theme:
People marrying young. Homecoming has a lot of that, and Bean and Petra marry very young too.
Another recurring theme:
Well, maybe not a theme, but the characters in almost every story quote history in their sleep. People are usually too obsessive about the present to think about past conquerers, but the works of OSC continuously justify themselves by citing how it worked in history.
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One I've noticed: OSC, to my knowledge, has never had a hero who is anything but perfectly loyal to his wife, and in fact many of his villains are known to be unfaithful. That may also be common in literature, but OSC's heroes rarely even have serious arguments with their spouses. Also, his heroes are usually virgins, at least until they marry. (I say usually, but the only ones I can think of who aren't are the Songmaster, who is physically punished for his sexual activity, and Issib, who seemed to be victimized by social customs.) Even if his heroes have other negative aspects, they are sexually pure, even to the point of not even being interested in sex.
For example, the men in the following couples: Ender-Novinha Ivan-Katerina Bean-Petra Miro-Ouanda, then Miro-Jane Peter-Si Wang Mu What's-his-name in Hart's Hope (Orem or something)-Beauty The two main characters in Pastwatch Alvin-Peggy Nafai-Luet
Other famous virgins: Captain Coleman Alai
I could go on, but my husband is sleeping in the room with the books. That's why some of my names are missing. Others could add more names to the list, or the list of exceptions.
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quote: Also, his heroes are usually virgins, at least until they marry. (I say usually, but the only ones I can think of who aren't are the Songmaster, who is physically punished for his sexual activity, and Issib, who seemed to be victimized by social customs.)
There was the brother-sister lovers in SftD.
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One of whom is crippled and made unable to experience sexual pleasure; the other becomes fat and lonely and an object of regret.
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the aiuas (sp) in the Ender universe are essentially equivalent to atoms in the Alvin universe. These are also related (at least in my mind) to that part of the person which rejects another's memories in Worthing, and also related to the name/body connection of Homebody.
Another theme: the importance of family legacy and creating a good future for your children (it's part of the "tree of life" theme). This applies even to characters who don't have children of their own like Ender, and the doctor in Pastwatch who says that the people of the "new history" are all his children, and he is creating a future for them.
quote:but OSC's heroes rarely even have serious arguments with their spouses
I wouldn't say this is the case at all.
Ender-Novinha: Their relationship was so dysfunctional she joined a convent behind Ender's back. I honestly failed to see what the attraction was between them besides the mutual interest in raising her children.
Alvin-Peggy: Initially they are fine, but then they go through a long period of separation where they both question if love still exists between them.
As for Songmaster, I don't think he was punished for having sex out of wedlock, he would have experienced the same shock had he married and had sex with a woman. Also I saw him more as a victim rather then a criminal when he lost his virginity as it seems the mechanic at work was a pernicious one.
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quote:Originally posted by PSI Teleport: One I've noticed: OSC, to my knowledge, has never had a hero who is anything but perfectly loyal to his wife, and in fact many of his villains are known to be unfaithful. That may also be common in literature, but OSC's heroes rarely even have serious arguments with their spouses. Also, his heroes are usually virgins, at least until they marry. (I say usually, but the only ones I can think of who aren't are the Songmaster, who is physically punished for his sexual activity, and Issib, who seemed to be victimized by social customs.) Even if his heroes have other negative aspects, they are sexually pure, even to the point of not even being interested in sex.
For example, the men in the following couples: Ender-Novinha Ivan-Katerina Bean-Petra Miro-Ouanda, then Miro-Jane Peter-Si Wang Mu What's-his-name in Hart's Hope (Orem or something)-Beauty The two main characters in Pastwatch Alvin-Peggy Nafai-Luet
Other famous virgins: Captain Coleman Alai
I could go on, but my husband is sleeping in the room with the books. That's why some of my names are missing. Others could add more names to the list, or the list of exceptions.
The exception to this would be Palicrovol in Hart's Hope. I don't know whether you can call him a hero. I'm not sure you can call anybody a hero in that book, except maybe Weasel/The Flower Princess, who does remain faithful to her true spouse for 300 years. Of course, she's made hideously ugly so it'd be harder for her to get some action on the side.
Anyway, Palicrovol wears the very strange hat of her/villain. He is both, and neither. But he is the hero for at least part of the book, and the book is written "to" him, making him at least the most central character if not the absolute hero. The book is all about his choice. He is one of the most important characters. And he definitely does not remain faithful to his wife.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: [QUOTE] Ender-Novinha: Their relationship was so dysfunctional she joined a convent behind Ender's back. I honestly failed to see what the attraction was between them besides the mutual interest in raising her children.
Me, too. Honestly, I disliked the Ender/Novinha thing so much that I have never re-read Speaker/CotM/Xenocide. I just don't see why Ender and Novinha hooked up, and that distraction kept me from really enjoying the books. It seemed so pointless to me.
quote: As for Songmaster, I don't think he was punished for having sex out of wedlock, he would have experienced the same shock had he married and had sex with a woman. Also I saw him more as a victim rather then a criminal when he lost his virginity as it seems the mechanic at work was a pernicious one.
quote:Originally posted by Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged: Sibling Rivalry especially among males.
Peter/Ender Elemak/Nafai Alvin/Calvin
Lanik/Dinte (well, sort of)
quote:but OSC's heroes rarely even have serious arguments with their spouses
Alvin's mother tells his father that if he goes and participates in the massacre, he'll sleep alone for the rest of his life.
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quote:Me, too. Honestly, I disliked the Ender/Novinha thing so much that I have never re-read Speaker/CotM/Xenocide. I just don't see why Ender and Novinha hooked up, and that distraction kept me from really enjoying the books. It seemed so pointless to me.
They both hate themselves.
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Theme: destroyer heroes - heroes who tear things down in order to save.
Ender (the xenocide, and on a smaller scale, his speakings) Abner Doon (destruction of Capitol) Jason (bringing the day of pain) Lark (tearing the house apart to rebuild) Pastwatch (destroying civilization to build a new one)
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"There was the brother-sister lovers in SftD."
Who are you talking about? Miro and Ouanda? They were virgins.
Re: Palicroval. I would not consider him the "hero" of the story, even though he is a hero-type character. I guess, rather than hero, I should have used the word protagonist.
BlackBlade: I had forgotten about Ender and Novinha. You're right. Although it's worth noting that Ender doesn't do much fighting himself, it's mostly Novinha. I wouldn't consider Alvin and Peggy's situation as "fighting". I'm thinking more about the disrespectful aspect.
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I seriously did not enjoy anything that had anything to do with Ender in the books after Speaker for the Dead... He was just so dull, I am glad his soul went to a better place in the end of it all... I would like to see Ender continue to replicate himself for eternity and what-not doing things that are actually important, as opposed to living in a monastery with his severely depressed wife that kills everyone accidentally... Wouldnt it, in theory be possible for everyone to live forever, just a trip to the outside when your about to die, pick up a fresh new body... *ponders* we should invent that... Ready..... GO! Posts: 93 | Registered: Apr 2008
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I'll get to work on the super-intelligent mind game and you look for the alien telepathic insect civilization that can make it into a soul!
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quote:Who are you talking about? Miro and Ouanda? They were virgins.
Really? Well, I guess it really has been a long time since I've read that book.
Do I remember correctly that they were virgins, but that was Ouanda's doing, and against Miro's will?
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I just re-read the appropriate passage, since I'd forgotten this as well. Miro also wants to remain a virgin until marriage -- but not for reasons of religion or personal morality; he understands that extramarital sex is extremely disapproved of by the colony for a variety of reasons, and is willing to wait a couple more years rather than jeopardize the social contract. It is noted -- somewhat tongue-in-cheek -- that if he thought Ouanda wanted to marry into that group of celibates, he probably wouldn't be able to currently exhibit the same level of self-control.
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Yeah, I get that Ender and Novinha both hate themselves, but it still just never quite jived in my head.
I've still got to say that Palicrovol is the central character in Hart's Hope. Ultimately, after Orem ruins Beauty, Palicrovol has *all* the power, and how the story ends hinges entirely on how he chooses.
This weird conundrum is why I love the book so much. I think it's easily one of the best and most original fantasies ever. Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Me, too. Honestly, I disliked the Ender/Novinha thing so much that I have never re-read Speaker/CotM/Xenocide. I just don't see why Ender and Novinha hooked up, and that distraction kept me from really enjoying the books. It seemed so pointless to me.
The only book I can think of off the top of my head without a main character with a superpower of some kind is in Lost Boys.
Everyone else is a child prodigy with some kind of superpower.
(now that I've said that, I'll probably be up all night reviewing OSC books to see if it's so. It certainly FEELS true, but what does that mean? )
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I was precocious as a kid, and I wonder if reading OSC just fed my then-growing certainty that all important things need to be accomplished by the time you're 15, and life is all downhill after that.
I think OSC's books reflect that feeling of being slightly lost in young adulthood, after a whiz-bang childhood.
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To me, it feels more like they reflect that your direction changes once you grow up, get married, have kids.
I know I don't have the energy to do the things I once was really into. That energy is redirected into doing the things I need to as an adult with a family.
I think that's a pretty universal experience.
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Not ot mention people always seem to know what they want and why they're upset. They are so articulate.
KQ-yeah...and thank heavens, in OSC's book, family isn't considered a letdown like it is in most other books.
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As for spouses getting along--functional marriages are certainly a dominant theme in OSC's work, but the marriages in Women of Genesis are not without their disagreements, and Nafai did spend a couple chapters not really treating Luet like a person when he spent most of his time with Issib and Volemak at the end of Ships of Earth.
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In many of OSC's books, the main characters are very tall.
There's Alvin in the Alvin Maker books. There's Tagiri in Pastwatch. There's Bean in the later Shadow books. There's Nafai and Oykib in Homecoming. There's Marcano (though he's not a main character) in Speaker. More in short stories, an example from the top of my head is Naog from Atlantis.
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A theme I've noticed is stuffing thing's down one's throat as a means to induce death.
Homecoming: Zdorab's lover/own testes
Xenocide: A child from path during Godspoken testing/shoe
Songmaster: Josif/bed sheets
Another one is people with disabilities overcoming them with technology.
Homecoming: Issib
Speaker For The Dead: Olhado
Xenocide: Miro *major spoilers* (doubly true for Miro as technology allows him to bypass his disability to some degree and ultimately he completely overcomes it with technology in Children of the Mind.
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What about the importance of getting married and having babies? That's been in a lot of books lately. I swear the Bean series screams it at you as soon as you open the book. It goes-
HEY! WHAT ARE YOU DOING READING BOOKS INSTEAD OF GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING BABIES!!!
GET TO IT RIGHT NOW!
Alright, Alright, geez. I'll get married and have babies.
I never got the whole Ender/Novinha (sp) thing. I think he would have been better off with that girl who worshipped him myself. Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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But, C3PO, some of those characters had to be tall, because the historical people the characters were based on were tall. Tall enough that people made a point of saying, "He was a big tall guy!" or "I was young, nevertheless mighty in stature."
Syn--the marriage/baby thing is so refreshing. That's part of why I read OSC in the first place.
I read a lot--well, who here at Hatrack doesn't--but it seems like 95% of fiction out there, esp. sf/f and mysteries, have characters and plots where people don't want to marry and don't want children.
In so many books, marriage = the end of life as we know it. Pregnancy = a terrifying infection to be avoided at all costs.
Some hyperbole, but not much. The overriding message in most fiction, and TV, is "Kids, don't ruin your life with marriage and children! (but go ahead and have sex and long-term relationships)"
I have the option, at least, of reading stuff like Beverly Lewis and Jan Karon, where there are actual married people! Having children! in the books.
But my husband feels goofy reading "women's fiction".
He feels ignored by our culture. I see this in my brothers and other young men who marry/ become dads. This sort of lostness, where-do-we-belong-ness, like life only matters for young men when they're with buddies at a LAN party.
No wonder lots of younger guys shy away from commitment. Our culture so often makes choosing stable family life look like suicide.
Even I felt invisible sometimes. It's challenging enough to be at home with lots of needy children, without having the TV and books shouting, You're throwing your life away! And I am stubborn, and believe strongly that raising kids is one of the most important things a human can do.
I feel sad for the other parents out there who maybe forget to remind themselves that their lives aren't meaningless just because popular culture derides marriage and children, or forgets to accurately represent them.
There is so much "don't marry" out there, do you really begrudge the "marry young and have babies, it's actually not the worst thing in the world" themes in OSC?
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quote: There is so much "don't marry" out there, do you really begrudge the "marry young and have babies, it's actually not the worst thing in the world" themes in OSC?
I don't think Syne said she begrudged the presence of the theme; I think she said she begrudged its ubiquity, even in situations where it would appear to make little sense for the characters as they'd previously been established.
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Oh. I guess we should ask Syn what is what that she did mean.
Syn?
ETA: Please give an exmple of gratuitous marriage.
Off the top of my head....well, let's make a list:
Lost Boys: The plot centers on a child/parent situation.
Memory of Earth: It's based on the Book of Mormon account of Nephi, which explicitly mentions the importance of going and getting wives, and of "raising up seed".
Ender's Shadow: Stories about the aftermath of child geniuses saving the world and now possibly destroying it. They are all having to make the transition to adulthood; how many of them, besides Bean and Petra, marry and have kids? Most of them rule countries instead. And young marriage is important here since Bean doesn't have all the time in the world, and also, these kids are prodigies and used to doing things early.
Ender's Game-Val marries and has kids. Ender eventually marries, and eventually has children, sort of. There seems to be more of an emphasis on not-marrying in the end of the series.
Pastwatch--I only remember one couple marrying, and in orther books, there might just be a sex scene instead. Either way, their relationship is a natural development in their work relationship.
Alvin Maker--based on Joseph Smith, who married young (at least by modern Western standards) and had a lot of kids, though few survived.
Women of Destiny--based on women who were married to the Biblical patriarchs. Marriage and children unsurprisingly figure largely in this series.
posted
Lost Boys had an awesome marriage, so it made sense to me. They were so excellently devoted to family. In Ender's Shadow there's a line said by Ender's mother that BUGGED me. I haven't read it in a while, but I can't help thinking that JUST getting married to be married is the worse idea in the world and contribues to a lot of horrible problems, especially when folk's just blindly do what has been done in the past. That whole serious bugs me, especially since A. Bean and Petra may be geniuses but they are still young. B. Petra going from being a badass tomboy to a harping constantly on Bean's beanie babies doesn't make total sense to me, Bean had a good reason for not wanting to have kids. He had a terrible disease. That whole line about the web of life ALSO bugged me out of my brains. Not because it's untrue, it's just that gays can be a part of it without having to marry someone straight which doesn't always lead to good results.
I haven't read pastwatch in years... Val marrying was cool, but I thought Ender should have married Plikt instead of who he married. Val and her husband had a pretty great relationship but I hate that line about a woman having kids for the man and Val telling Novinhua that she STAYED WITH THE RIGHT MAN WHEN HE WAS ABUSIVE! A woman should NEVER, EVER stay with an abusive man. It's not good for her, it isn't good for the children, They were miserable until Ender came along. Alvin and Peggy had the best Marriage next to Step and his wife in Lost Boys. It's just that I do not think that JUST being married is enough. It has to make sense, it has to be a half-way good marriage. (None of Novinhas were very good) because if marriage is the cornerstone of civilization, and if parenting is the most important job ever then it just makes sense to me for them to be healthy...
Perhaps I'll have to explain a bit better. I don't even think young people are as old as they were in the past. A 14 year old from the 1800s is bound to be more mature than a 14 year old from 2008.
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I think the Shadow books gave us gratuitous children, but only Magic Street gave us an example of gratuitous marriage.
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Yeah, I disliked Novinha. I just didn't feel sympathetic. Actually,Novinha made me feel more sympathy for poor Ender, for having to be married to her.
I think Plikt was devoted to Ender, but I don't think that would have made a good marriage. Ideally people should be on emotionally equal footing, and Plikt was a disciple, not a wife.
I liked Alvin and Peggy's marriage once she was pregnant, but I wished for more of an emotional segue to explain how they had gotten to understanding each other so well, from previously having been so angry and uncommunicative.
Not to mention the bad marriages in Memory of Earth, between Nafai's older brothers and their wives.
So maybe OSC isn't trying to propogandize marriage; he's just portraying marriages, some good, some bad, some swinging between the two.
Syn, I see what you mean about Petra going from aggressive tomboy to loving mom, but I don't see how those two personality traits are mutually exclusive.
It's because she is so determined and aggressive that she is a doting mother, because instead of ruling a country, Petra marries and starts a family. Well, and helps run defense for the Hegemony's countries.
I agree that teenagers and young adults these days are usually not as ready for independent adulthood as they were in the past.
OTOH, we've also changed our definitions of "independent adulthood". For instance, most young adults I know aren't considered "successful" unless they make a certain amount of money.
I think there was less pressure in the past on young adults just starting out to have money and all the trappings thereof. You were allowed to be poor, and without certain things. Now there is a lot of pressure to have all your ducks in a row, car, house, education, job, before getting married and especially before having children.
I hear it's worse in Europe, where adult children will live with their parents well into adulthood, often into their thirties, and after they've already starting having children with other people. I think it's unfortunate that economics and cultural expectations combine to prevent families from setting up shop whenever they want to.
I like the whole multi-generational thing, though. We're trying to buy a house next door to my father-in-law's hobby farm for just such a lifestyle.
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I have not read Memories of Earth yet. Perhaps I'll have to snag it at the library some time. Perhaps it's a bit believable for Petra to go from tomboy to mother, considering how much I want to be a parent, but that whole part still bugged me, especially when they KNEW they were going to get their embryos stolen, it was as clear as screaming neon, and they did it anyway. Mostly for the sake of some moral soapboxing.
Urg. I would HATE to still be living with my parents. I want to put up a generational dam to avoid passing certain things on that have been in my families for ages. Especially that whole old school southern get a switch bring me my belt sort of thing. *shiver* I would like to have my ducks in a row, it just seems better for the child that way. Not so I can buy them the latest baby gadgets designed to turn them into geniuses, but for stability. I just got through reading A Tree Grows in Brooklyn again. One thing tha tbothered me was, as much as I love Kate, I feel like she made her life and her children's life harder than it had to be. Especially with her take no charity pride, which seemed noble when one is single, but with an alcoholic dying husband and two hungry children... if I were her I don't think I'd turn down the money the cops were kind enough to collect for her.
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And I have brothers and SILs and other relatives that would agree with you about wanting stability, and pursuing money before having kids, for their family's sake. Good heavens, my parents certainly weren't happy about me having many children before I turned 25.
But, I have seen other people with a lot of $$$ suddenly lose it. Nothing is ever guaranteed.
Stability is, IMAO, just taking for granted that the middling-to-good fortune we enjoy today will still happen tomorrow. Often part of that is the belief that we earn stability by paying dues...getting a degree, saving money. But crises happen even to the best-prepared people, and in an eyeblink.
It's entirely possible to have things "stable", get pregnant, and by the time the baby's born to have lost everything. Everything material, anyway.
Even as it was, we were "stable" when my husband was in the military, but people--military and non--would tell us we shouldn't have kids in the military, because even though it was stable, it was stable poverty. (We still made it though...barely. ) "Stable" is a moving target.
Anyway, not that you asked at all, but I think all parenthood is inherently risky and an act of faith. We shouldn't be stupid with our resources, and should seek to improve our situation, but even if a couple were to somehow attain financial perfection before having kids, they may not stay there long enough for the kids to benefit.
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