quote:Originally posted by Amka: Until they have a full sense of permanence and self, any attempt to train them to be alone at night by crying it out is, IMO, selfish.
You are of course entitled to your opinion.
So am I. And mine is that you are wrong.
I also think that every child is different. Some babies really don't seem to be able to fall asleep past a certain age without crying themselves to sleep (and we're not talking about a long period of crying, FYI). For others, such a method would be an exercise in frustration and futility.
Edit: Parents get enough grief, even GOOD parents. I strongly disagree that "putting on one's own oxygen mask first" is selfish.
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What resulted was he slept very, very lightly, and until he was 3 wouldn't sleep through the night. He would refuse to go to sleep and require being rocked, storied, and cajoled. We got away with it because he was our only one for 2 1/2 years.
When our #3 turned 2, she had the habit of stealing into our room like a ninja and infiltrating the bed.
Some friends with kids told us that after just one night of locking their door, their daughter hollared, fell asleep on the floor outside their room, and stayed in her own bed after that.
We locked our door. Toddler Honeybee stood outside the door, crying. Then, after 20 minutes, we heard a choking sound--she was so upset she'd started to vomit.
We didn't lock our door after that.
There is a lot of advice out there--our job as parents is to selectively apply that advice.
I had a lot of nice ideas about parenting before I had kids.
I let my #5 cry a bit when I put him to bed. Like my oldest, he doesn't self-regulate his sleeping patterns. Unless he is placed in his bed and the light turned off, he will not fall asleep. It would be negligant of me to allow him to deprive himself of sleep, especially at an age when he is growing so quickly.
My job is to override his wishes--to stay up and have partytime with Mommy all night--for the sake of his own good. It's not fun having to be the ogre, but it comes with the territory.
And I'm otherwise fairly attachment-minded--I mean, I don't even send them out to school.
One of the shortest roads to being frustrated with parenting in general and with a child in particular, is remaining dogmatically committed to some childrearing ideology that clearly isn't working.
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: For my family, sleeping at night helps us function better as parents the rest of the time.
Exactly.
I reckon, but it's good as long as folks don't take it to the extreme. Like expecting a newborn to sleep through the night when I can't even do it.. There has to be some sort of balance between a baby's natural need to be held and parents getting their sleep.
Mostly I object to people like Ezzo. He is such a major *insert explitive for a part of the body here* I don't know why folks take his advice. He doesnt' even seem to like babies and seems to think they should be away from their parents as much as possible. I just don't get that sort of attitude. I suspect from talking to my mother that when I was a baby with her she let me cry quite often, thinking that if I was pciked up a lot, like with my grandfather, i'd be spoild. That is a myth that seriously needs to die, especially when it comes to things that have been discovered about attachment. I don't think I want to take any chances. But things could change when I have kids. I just hope I take them into consideration first. It's one thing with toddlers I guess, but I hate parents thinking something is wrong with their child because they cry in the middle of th enigh like most children do... I think some warped ideas have crept into mainstream parenting and we need to sort of get them out like picking off fleas. I'm not saying kids should be spoild rotten, but they need that foundation.
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quote:One of the shortest roads to being frustrated with parenting in general and with a child in particular, is remaining dogmatically committed to some childrearing ideology that clearly isn't working.
I want to throw confetti and neon around this sentence.
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posted
First of all, last night I thought to add that there are a lot of parents who would put their children away from them at night that aren't selfish because many parents are taugh that they must do this to their children in order to be good parents.
Sachiko,
I agree with your idea that children are all individuals and need an individual plan. The center of that plan, no matter what, must be compassion and a desire to help the child excel in their own way. That is the ideology that I will dogmatically cling to.
You can't necessarily blame how your oldest sleeps on what you did when he was young. I have family bedded four children now. One of them is a light sleeper, and always was. I can't imagine that making her sleep alone would have helped. As it is, she has a lot of anxiety anyway, and this was part of her personality from the beginning. What would have happened to her had I applied the regime of nighttime = must be alone?
That said, none of the arguments that are for parental separation at night have taken into consideration the feelings of the baby. Before anyone claims that this is spoiling the child, consider that they have no concept of anything beyond their needs, and they're only aware of those in the immediate moment. Young babies only cry if they are uncomfortable or in pain, frightened, hungry, lonely, or overstimulated.
Children's feelings and needs are as intense as adults and even more so, since they have no ability to control those emotions. The simplicity of their needs, and their lack of ability to communicate them, as well as the fact that they won't remember it in a year, doesn't make those feelings any less important. There is a time to train for delayed gratification and independence, but that is not in the first six months of life.
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posted
Crying it out can mean so many different things that we're probably just chasing our tails here. I would never have left my kids to cry when they were, for example, 3 months old. But by the time they were nearing a year and had proven that they could make it through the night, I definitely let them cry it out. I let my son cry for an hour one night. The method was in response to his growing habit of crying in the middle of the night out of boredom, and each of my responses caused him to do it more often the next night. In my opinion, doing anything OTHER than letting him cry it out would have been irresponsible and just plain dumb on my part.
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posted
An hour though? In his perspective that would be a bit... well...
harsh... and how do you know he was crying out of boredom?
Somehow this idea that babies are crying to be manipulative has gotten into mainstream society. I'm not sure it's really accurate.
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posted
When you have a child, there are things you just know about it, and one is the type of cry they are crying. And by a year, leaving him for an hour really isn't that harsh. I have learned with my baby that there are cries that you are better ignoring and one you never ever ignore. And if mine is crying in one way, by going and getting her, I can pretty much guarantee that it will lead to her having an awful day. If I let her be, she'll be happier (she sometimes will fall back asleep, but sometimes I think she just needs some time in her crib half asleep to decide if she is really ready for the day). Until you have been a parent, it is hard to judge another parent's decisions fairly.
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posted
Amka, I agree with you. The thing we must embrace as parents is that we'll always strive to do the best we can with our children.
In my family, our attempt to reconcile the baby's boredom and lonliness, and everyone's need for sleep, is having our children share rooms. Only recently have we seperated them into two rooms (boys and girls). Before, they all slept Japanese-style on the floor in a row, and loved it. The light sleepers seemed to learn to sleep through more noises, and took comfort from their siblings nearby.
I agree that small infants, and even middle-sized infants, cannot be ignored. The issue is that most parents--and I'm including myself here--don't know the "magic age" when the parent is supposed to leave them in the bed to cry for a little while, instead of getting them out as the child's accustomed too.
Generally by about ten months is when I'll start plunking them in their crib and letting them whimper for a few minutes before they pass out for the night. Some people start sooner, some later, and some not at all. T
he not-at-all parents that I've known couldn't bring themselves to get through the first night of letting Baby get himself to sleep because the baby wasn't used to it, and it seemed "so mean". It just gets progressively "meaner" as the child gets older and more and more accustomed to never having to conform to family sleeping patterns. Parents who give their kids whatever the kids wants, are setting everyone up for some painful consequences.
I agree that a newborn cannot be bratty or manipulative.
A 2 year old, however, CAN.
And if the parents have never managed to transition a child whose ever cry has been met with more holding, to a child sleeping through the night, then getting up at night with a child who is lonely or bored will never end. They will continue to expect it for years past when they are able to amuse or comfort themselves.
I stay at home and homeschool, partly because I believe it's unreasonable and unnatural for a child to be away from their parents for substantial hours every day, starting at a young age.
Countless people disagree with me on this, and think I'm nuts for not sending my kids to daycare and public school.
Just so you know that, as a rule, I don't favor putting children in unhappy situations for the sake of adult conveniance.
I agree that our society encourages parental selfishness; I disagree that some bedtime practices are such acts of parental selfishness.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Until you have been a parent, it is hard to judge another parent's decisions fairly.
I truly hate when folks say that. Yes, it's true to a certain extent, I'm not a parent yet, and the closest I've come to it was having my cousin dumped on me when I was about 11 or 12 while his mother went off to party bu tI have been a kid before and I just know there are things my parents did that I don't want to do to a child of mine. That's why I've bene reading a lot about AP because I never even knew about attachment, especially when it comes to adopted children. I love the concept of it because it makes a lot of sense. I think my mother made me cry it out a bit based on conversations I've had with her. She also, when I lived with her employed the belt and I'm hoping ot undo all of that stuff somehow, but it makes me a bit nervous. Still, I'm looking forward to it.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Until you have been a parent, it is hard to judge another parent's decisions fairly.
I truly hate when folks say that.
Then imagine how much parents hate to have their judgement second guessed by someone with no experience. Before I had children, I'd see boys and girls misbehaving (in my view anyway) and I'd think to myself that MY children would never act like that. I was not usually bold enough to say so out loud most of the time, but I did have pretty strong opinions about how children should behave and how parents should respond when they cry/throw tantrums/won't eat/talk back or whatever. HA! I ate my (non-verbalized) words many many times over the years once I started my family (I have 6 children, now aged 17-27).
The fact is, until you have 24/7 responsibility for a child(ren), you really have no frame of reference. Even school teachers without children of their own don't have a clue. Being a parent is different than any other job, and the only way to learn is by doing.
That said, there were things that my mother said/did when I was growing up that I swore I would never say or do to my own children. And I didn't and haven't. Of course you can and should learn from your own experiences and plan for your future family. But even so, as trite as it sounds, you won't REALLY know how you'll parent until you have your own children.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Until you have been a parent, it is hard to judge another parent's decisions fairly.
I truly hate when folks say that.
Then imagine how much parents hate to have their judgement second guessed by someone with no experience. Before I had children, I'd see boys and girls misbehaving (in my view anyway) and I'd think to myself that MY children would never act like that. I was not usually bold enough to say so out loud most of the time, but I did have pretty strong opinions about how children should behave and how parents should respond when they cry/throw tantrums/won't eat/talk back or whatever. HA! I ate my (non-verbalized) words many many times over the years once I started my family (I have 6 children, now aged 17-27).
The fact is, until you have 24/7 responsibility for a child(ren), you really have no frame of reference. Even school teachers without children of their own don't have a clue. Being a parent is different than any other job, and the only way to learn is by doing.
That said, there were things that my mother said/did when I was growing up that I swore I would never say or do to my own children. And I didn't and haven't. Of course you can and should learn from your own experiences and plan for your future family. But even so, as trite as it sounds, you won't REALLY know how you'll parent until you have your own children.
Yes yes yes, I'm aware of this, but try to understand this from my perspective. When I lived with my mother (mostly I was raised by my grandmother) she would hit me. She herself was hit as a child, worse than I was, with belts and extension cords and hangers. When people say this to me it makes me think, "When you're a parent you'll hit your kids too because then you'll know what it's like." That may not be what they are saying, but that is what I hear and I do NOT want to do that to my own children. It's super important to me not to follow in my relatives footsteps when it comes to this. It scares me out of my brain, and hearing folks say that really doesn't help one bit. I've seriously got to find a way to break the cycle of that and not slip into that sort of mentality my mother had for me. It's been bothering me ever since i decided I wanted to be a parent. She was a lot younger than me when she had me, but still, there had to be some other way to handle me when I was a toddler besides belts. I was recovering from cancer as well, so that disturbs me doubly. I'll do just about anything not to mistreat my children for their own good. I will not have them inheriting that sort of thing from me.
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quote:Originally posted by Sachiko: The not-at-all parents that I've known couldn't bring themselves to get through the first night of letting Baby get himself to sleep because the baby wasn't used to it, and it seemed "so mean". It just gets progressively "meaner" as the child gets older and more and more accustomed to never having to conform to family sleeping patterns. Parents who give their kids whatever the kids wants, are setting everyone up for some painful consequences.
I agree that a newborn cannot be bratty or manipulative.
A 2 year old, however, CAN.
And if the parents have never managed to transition a child whose ever cry has been met with more holding, to a child sleeping through the night, then getting up at night with a child who is lonely or bored will never end. They will continue to expect it for years past when they are able to amuse or comfort themselves.
I’ve read this argument pretty often, but it doesn’t hold true for any of the families I’ve known who co-slept/had a “family bed” when their kids were young or any of what I’ve read about those practices. All of those kids eventually moved into their own rooms and sleep just fine. That’s holding true for our family so far as well – we co-sleep and I night nurse. As John has gotten older he sleeps longer between nursings and sometimes now he will stir and roll over and go back to sleep without asking to nurse. Sometimes he sleeps through the night, sometimes he still wakes and either needs to be soothed back to sleep or asks to nurse, but he’s on a general trajectory of waking less and sleeping longer that I have no reason to think won’t continue. He’s 20 months now and we got him his own toddler bed last week and put it next to our bed. The first two nights he woke up and realized he was alone in bed and started to cry, we swooped him up and brought him to bed with us. The next two nights when he woke up he crawled out of his bed, came over to ours and asked to come up. Last night he slept through the night in his own bed. I’m sure we have many nights of partial bed-sharing yet to come, but I have no reason to think that unless we force him to learn to sleep alone before he chooses to he’ll never do it.
There are good reasons that extended co-sleeping is not right for every family, but the idea that all families who choose it are setting their kids up for problems is, IMO, nonsense.
And, btw, we parent this way because we choose too, not becasue we tried to let the baby cry and "couldn't bring ourselves to get through" it.
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posted
I'm just grateful there are parents like dkw and Amka and Sachiko, who at least are making considerate choices about raising their children.
It's the consideration part that, to me, is essential.
We don't co-sleep, or practice attachment parenting-- it's just not how we've chosen to do things. And it's working out pretty well for us.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Yes yes yes, I'm aware of this, but try to understand this from my perspective. When I lived with my mother (mostly I was raised by my grandmother) she would hit me. She herself was hit as a child, worse than I was, with belts and extension cords and hangers. When people say this to me it makes me think, "When you're a parent you'll hit your kids too because then you'll know what it's like." That may not be what they are saying, but that is what I hear and I do NOT want to do that to my own children.
It really is not fair to equate letting a 1 year old cry itself to sleep to hitting a child. I don't think people are saying you'll hit your kids, but I think you will understand your mother better. The difference between a good parent and a bad parent is not whether or not you think about hitting your kid (everyone does at some point), but whether or not you actually do it.
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posted
dkw, I don't think you co-cleep because you can't manage to make a kid sleep in their own bed. Obviously that's not happening at your house.
I'm referring here to a friend I had who did not want to co-sleep, but ended up doing it anyway. Bad situation. We should do what we decidet od o, because when we feel forced into a corner with parenting, that's when the resentment of our life and our kids begins.
I think your arrangement is just fine, not that you really care about MY opinion.
Me, I can't sleep if anyone/anything is touching me, and DH and I prize being able to sleep in our very own bed and very own room. I spend all day every day under a dogpile of homeschooled children, so for us, sleeping alone is essential for employee satisfaction.
Synesthesia--you WILL be able to be a good mom, because you care about not repeating past parenting mistakes perpetrated on you.
It is hard, because your autopilot may be set on something you don't want to let yourself follow through on--speaking from experience here. But it can be done, and good people around the world are doing it every day. You'll be fine.
posted
Without commenting on any specific case, I think there is a lot more involved in not repeating the parenting patterns of our parents than just a strong desire to do better. For most people with serious parenting issues in their family history, counseling with a qualified family therapist is an absolute must BEFORE there is a child in the picture.
We all want to be great parents. But for those without good family histories to draw on, that can be an uphill battle, and wanting to do better is really just the first step.
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posted
This isn't an argument for anything. I'm just reminded of when I chose to co-sleep.
First I had my oldest's bassinet at the foot of our bed in our tiny one room apartment. It wasn't that she'd cry, it just felt wrong. Here was a being that had been inside of me for 9 months and now it was expected to be that far away from me? So I moved the bassinet next to me. Felt better. Brought baby in bed a couple of times to nurse, and we both fell asleep and that felt right too. Didn't people used to do it this way, and why did they stop?
I went to the library and discovered the philosophy of co-sleeping and attachment parenting, as well as the safety issues involved in it. I knew I'd found my parenting style.
So I did change, but only because I hadn't been that aware of co-sleeping, and part of that was because I wasn't afraid (babysat a lot of kids and my youngest sister was born while I was a teenager) so I didn't read parenting books.
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