quote: I'm the only one on this thread who has said anything about nuclear weapons.
And I about broadswords. Mmm broadswords.
If anyone is willing to get serious about terrorizing these people (in a legal, nonviolent way), I'm in full support. If I were going to Jamaica this christmas, I would drop leaflets into the camp, despite its questionable legality.
Posts: 903 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Teen Liberty Alexia Park's Anerican Gulag. This woman spent years trying to rescue a niece from two different behav mod schools. And the book looks well-researched and comprehensive. I'm going to read it and go from there.A little 1st hand experience data is needed...
posted
Naw, maybe I was inchoherent. I was mad. But I made good points anyway. The cult thing is repeated in many sources...I didn't know this until after I thought it was cult, so..very happy with my understanding but sickened.
posted
I like the leaflet idea, but those can easily be confiscated. Better to use amplifers and shout messages into the camp if possible. The staff can't stop the students from listening or punish them. By the way, what message would you want to send to them? "We are going to get you out"? "Don't give in"? "What they are doing to you is wrong"? "Rise up and throw off your oppressors"? What about offering practical assistance to the eighteen-year-olds who stay because they need their parents' support?
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
It was pretty dang clear, filetted, that you were insulting people. You used words like "frothing", "bandwagon", "sickening", "stupid", "hysterical", and implied that everyone who was very, very angry was being irrational and stupid, numerous times.
If you weren't trying to insult and criticize, then you sure made the same mistake on repeated posts.
That said, Hatrack isn't populated by gullible people. Just because you have been snookered by false articles and such in the past does not mean that we are making the same mistake.
And in fact we're not.
Had you concerned yourself with doing more research into the reactions, you would've discovered that we had independant corroboration already. We could discover the article was true or at least largely true almost immediately-there are even people who knew about the existence of such camps and worse before the thread was even started.
Next time you try to teach a lesson, make sure the class hasn't already learned it, m'kay?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
flish, I edited out the worst of my b][ stuff to make my posts more readable and "punch up" the key points, as you so kindly suggested. And some of my graemlins. I kept most of the sad or angry ones though.
One weakness to the leaflet idea is it's littering. I like the idea of a biplane buzzing merrily around with a banner attached. Legal if you don't violate local (Jamaican) flying laws.
quote: What about offering practical assistance to the eighteen-year-olds who stay because they need their parents' support?
Tough question that I don't have an answer for. There's no denying that lots of these kids need lots of help. But what they need more than anything is their parents love (discussed endlessly on parenting threads.) Jail/schools with no teachers run by ex-pump jockies are bound to do more harm than good, I bet even most parents with kids there would understand that if they weren't being manipulated and taken to the cleaners by these base-born, soulless monsters Peace, Morbo
posted
You know, I’m started to think fileted may have had a good point.
Morbo. You keep saying you’re serious about this. I don’t know if you are, or if you’re just blowing off steam. But if you are serious, you need to stop and think about what you’re actually trying to accomplish. Are you just trying to do something dramatic to make yourself feel good, or do you really want to do something useful? Because the useful stuff is usually not very dramatic. Contact one of the survivors groups like the one Tom linked to on the first page and ask them what you should do.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Okay, then I have another suggestion. Do your early planning/brainstorming on scratch paper and save the forum for actual discussions. I mean that in the nicest possible way, but this thread is starting to read like a planning session for a really bad RPG campaign. And ultimately, we are talking about real people’s real lives.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Very good point, Dkw . A lot of the time I was typing as fast as I could, out of outrage and pity. You should have seen my posts before I edited them.
[edit suggestion to DKW and others: read wwasp web page: WWASP home page, then read reporting of what actually goes on in these camps. These kids are literally being treated as bad as POW's.]
I would put forth that that is precisely the reason this *is* important. We are talking about real people's lives.
Perhaps this forum isn't the place for trying to do this, but brainstorming sessions often start with ludicrous ideas and I find it amazing that some people are suggesting that the emotions and reactions to this (apparent) brutal oppression are somehow out of line or even surprising...
[ July 04, 2003, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: T. Analog Kid ]
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote: this thread is starting to read like a planning session for a really bad RPG campaign. And ultimately, we are talking about real people’s real lives. dkw
Very true. But I bet close to half have played RPG's or are dedicated gamers right now, so its only natural. As far as real lives, many philosopher's have speculated that life is a game. I'm sure as a minister you've heard this before.
posted
according to this child abuse is defined as
quote: Child abuse and neglect is, at a minimum:
Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation; or An act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm.
and emotional abuse is defined as
quote:
Emotional Abuse (psychological/verbal abuse/mental injury) includes acts or omissions by the parents or other caregivers that have caused, or could cause, serious behavioral, cognitive, emotional, or mental disorders. In some cases of emotional abuse, the acts of parents or other caregivers alone, without any harm evident in the child's behavior or condition, are sufficient to warrant child protective services (CPS) intervention. For example, the parents/caregivers may use extreme or bizarre forms of punishment, such as confinement of a child in a dark closet . Less severe acts, such as habitual scapegoating, belittling, or rejecting treatment, are often difficult to prove and, therefore, CPS may not be able to intervene without evidence of harm to the child.
I think according to that, the courts really ought to be able to stop this, because sending the kids TO these places is action on that part of the parents, leading to definite emotional abuse, and probly some physical
posted
Good point, Toretha. I wonder why the courts are so reluctant to intervene? Parental rights? Those have been eroding for decades. I don't know, I suspect they don't want to get involved in a complex and contoversial issue. Some test cases will have to be forced through the courts by activists, I suspect.
posted
I also don't understand why these parents aren't being jailed for child abuse. What goes on in these facilities, even what we know about, is abuse. What we don't know about is probably much worse. Even if it's not on American soil, these parents are sending their kids away to be abused. Doesn't that count? If an American mother sold her daughter into slavery, even if it was in Malaysia or Columbia or Antarctica, wouldn't it still count as abuse?
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
True, but could she be prosecuted on American soil for a crime only the beginnings of which are here (bundling Junior off)? A lawyer would have to figure this I think. I'm well read in law but this is very complicated.
And often the parents are sucked in without proper homework by the network of BS artists pretending to be independant. So far I 've found 10 different groups, all interlocked, all giving "independant" referals to each other... They're like damned bacteria...
posted
TAK, I wasn’t saying that it isn’t important. What I was saying is that playing around with heroic seeming actions, without proper support behind them, can do more harm than good. Example: A Hatracker goes on vacation to Jamaica and somehow manages to dump propaganda flyers into the camp. What has been accomplished? Probably nothing but angering the staff, making life worse for the residents.
There are organizations that have been studying this problem and working on ways to counter it for years. The fact that there is so much knowledge out there now – that Dateline and Time are taking an interest – is because of the work they are doing. They’ve already researched the relevant laws that we are speculating about, and know what levels of proof need to be met to invoke them.
Doing something real requires time and commitment and patience. Acting like a dilettante, while blowing off steam and making the person doing it feel like they’re accomplishing something, is liable to make things worse. And that’s why I said it’s playing games with people’s lives.
Edit to add: I’m not saying that people shouldn’t get involved, or should leave it to the organizations that are already working on it. I’m saying that people who want to get involved should do it in connection and cooperation with the people who are already working on it. Otherwise you’re either duplicating labor or even working at cross-purposes to one another.
posted
Well, dkw, I think the only thing I disagree with in your last post is the idea that dumping propoganda flyers wouldn't accomplish anything. Letting people know that hey haven't been abandoned is of prime importance in their resisting techniques like those employed at Tranquility Bay.
But can I add that dumping the propaganda flyers would only be helpful if it were part of a larger strategy? I'm pretty sure that's what you're thinking, anyway.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
absolutely... otherwise it'd be like overflying a deserted island, finding a shipwrecked crew, waving merrily and dropping a note that says "we'll be back!" and then flying away and forgetting them.
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Right. And that’s what I was starting to worry that some folks might actually do. Which is why I made the “real lives” comment. I should have been more clear. Thanks for calling me on it.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: A Hatracker goes on vacation to Jamaica and somehow manages to dump propaganda flyers into the camp. What has been accomplished? Probably nothing but angering the staff, making life worse for the residents. dkw
True. It might make the activist happy, but accomplish little else. The ISAC(link here soon ) group e-mailed me July 4 and said they'd be happy to have me as volunteer, so that's where I'm going to focus my efforts. :sigh: And you made good points as well, taKid. Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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dkw, sorry if I irritated you yesterday, I was quite angry and defensive. When I thought back, I saw you made some good points that I take to heart. Morbo
posted
I've also looked for more info on this topic, and found almost nothing.
This should be headline news. Instead, it is last page, one paragraph in the single article that apeared in N.Y. Times, 3 months ago. Some newspapers have never heard of this place. If we could, through letters, email, excetera, stirr up public interest in this horror, I'm sure there would be sufficent outcry, villegenti justice, and parent pressure to significantly damper the sucess of their "reducation" programs.
Posts: 61 | Registered: May 2002
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If I was American I'd definitely be writing my Congressman. Or something. I dunno. I agree, it's unbelievable that this gets no media attention.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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