posted
Today parents are doing a piss poor job in my opinion, in north america anyway.
Today parents cannot accept risk. To them, risk is something of the past and should be wiped out along with the slide rule and the strap. Well let me tell you something. Risk exists and is an extremely important part of raising your child.
I have several friends who sit in all day and play nintendo, computer, watch tv, whatever. They really don't seem to have much of a life. You know a commen trait I have observed also? All the perants of these kids are reluctant to let them go down the river to play or whatever. Anyway, the kids have to find something to do, so when they can't do it real life, they have to find a poor subsitute.
young children, especially boys need to test and push themselves. Its part of growing up. You learn your limits. What i've seen happen is those boys who havn't had a chance to test their limits, practice with dangerous things, jump right into something that is totally out of their depth.
For example. I set up a Zipline( a rope strining from one high point to a lower point in which you slide down on using some device) by tying rope to a high part of tree and then lower down the trunk of another.
We used just a plain stick to slide down the device on, meaning the stick could easily slip to one side and give your hand horrible rope burn.
i let my friend of 13 years old on with wihtout any second thoughts. He had had quite a bit of experiance toying with his comfort level and was an avid climber and knew when to focus and how to focus. He did it perfectly.
I also let a young boy of 10 onto the line with far more quams. He had never had any experiance with testing himself. When he went onto the line he quivered and sliped to the side. The rope burned through the first layer of skin and he dropped 7 feet to the ground.
Now here is another important point, some people may call me crazy or irresponsible for letting the ten year old on the line. But you know what, i gave him a long needed oppurtunity to try and see what he could do. Some people may have looked at the line and said "you could get hurt" and you know what, you could get hurt. Very easily get hurt. All three of us eventually got injured on that line in minor ways. But heres the thing folks. Getting hurt is not the end of the world. In fact, it opens up worlds. The possibility of getting hurt is there and absoloutly has to be there.
So next time when you see your child doing something dangerous, perhaps weigh the situation "will they die if they die they fall", or "will it be something fairly minor like a cut or something broken", if so I suggest you let your child live life and he will come out a safer person in the end with a better grasp of himself. And whatever you do, don't sue your school board!
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
You know, I have to agree with you. But, as a woman, my mothering instinct kicks and I worry. My boyfriend bought his daughters a trampoline. He likes to put it near the house and (while he is present) he allows his daughters (ages 12 and 10) to jump off the roof onto the trampoline. They never do it when he isn't there (I don't think they could move the ladder, anyhow) and they have a blast when they do it. It ties my insides into knots, but I love to see them having fun.
We had a wrestling match last night. I stepped on his oldest's head as I flew off the bed. She cried, we paid attention until we figured out she wasn't hurt seriously. She was scared more than anything. When we first started these little wrassling matches they would cry if they didn't get enough attention, or if they fell 4 inches. We explained to them that if we play rough, there is a chance that they will get hurt. If they choose to participate they must take that risk. Now, I have seen them take falls that they never would have imagined, and simply say..."Ouch!" When they realized that pain does not always equal severe injury they took it in stride. They are much tougher than they used to be.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I agree and disagree. I agree that children need to be outside, get dirty, splash in mudpuddles, dig up bugs, try lots of things. I think children need time without adult overview or interference, to experiment, try things. This doesn't, however, mean that I think parents should just shove their kids outdoors and have no idea what their kids are up to or where they are. A parent's job is to raise their children to adulthood. You fail at that job if your kid is killed while hookiebobbing, or gets a broken neck from jumping off the roof of your two story house.
So if you were another adult or much older child offering my 10 year old son (I have one, btw) the opportunity to go sliding down a rope from a significant height, I would be very angry when I learned about it. Even if he didn't happen to get hurt. Gaining valuable life experiences with taking risks doesn't mean you discard even basic measures of safety. So, I don't know how old you are, but I suggest you check with parents before you go "educating" 10 year olds.
edit: Hi aretee! LTNS! The comment above about jumping off roofs was coincidental, btw...I didn't see your post until after I posted my own. I was thinking of my husband, who at age 6 was attempting to teach his younger sisters how to fly from the roof of their two story house. He was caught before they had a chance to make their first attempt. Another time, a policeman caught him teaching his sisters to run in traffic. I sometimes wonder how his sisters survived childhood.
posted
I'm 14 yrs old and I feel confined inside the house after school and during the summer. I don't like it because I can just hang with my friends but the only thing that gets in my way are my siblings. It's no use wasting money to send them to a daycare when they can stay here and do homework. The only problem is that I can't let them outside because I can't protect them as much cuz my parents have to work.
Oh well...that's what camps are for.
Posts: 4628 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I have step-kids for the summer. I got: all the bikes in tip top condition, swimming and rollerskating passes, library cards, and pointed out all the kids they know within biking distance. On top of that, behind us are acres of BLM land, hill, peaks, mines, and views. And I can't get them out of the house to save my life.
posted
I've only gone swimming once this summer and once in about 1-3 years. Haven't been to the library in a year or so. Rollerblading I haven't done since I was in 6th grade and I'm a freshman in highschool now.
quote:And I can't get them out of the house to save my life.
I would then ask what kind of habits they are raised with at home and how much they are allowed to do.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I've always thought that when I'm dealing with an ungrateful complaining pubescent, that it would be great to leave them someplace, like a village in Africa or a scary inner city slum. I could bring back a few native kids with me. They would be tickled. After a couple of months I could go get the ungrateful pubs after they have walked all day to get water, or heard gunfire right outside their door, they would have a completely new perspective on life.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
Brettly10, I would disagree with you when you say idiocy as you call it is not an important part of growing up. Its the idiocy that kids aren't getting nowadays. i don' know how old you are, but I can tell, htings were a lot differant back in the forty fifties and sixties. My dad for example, did a lot of idiotic things. He and his friends had fights with pellet guns, they went down to the river and did god knows what, they even shot at each other with hunting bows, now i'd agree that thats taking it over the top, like, a long way. but guess what, you know how many of them died. 0. And guess what else. My dad has been climbing and doing outdoorsy things for years. He is healthy and fit at 56 because of hte good habits he was allowed to have.
Another thing, do you really fail as a perant if your kid dies? I would disagree. Thats another north american philosophy. People all over the world have their children die, its rare, but it happens. They mourn for the child and life goes on.
I think perants have to really look at their upbringing and not look at "where they could have died" and "where they did die"
How many of you can say you died as a child?
Oh, by the way, Brettly10, how old are you? And ask yourself if they way you are raising your kid is the way you were raised. Take out the negative points and add some good points and raise your child that way. I would say always having your child in a safe enviroment is a negative point. Life isn't safe. Don't disillusion them.
quote:Another thing, do you really fail as a perant if your kid dies? I would disagree. Thats another north american philosophy. People all over the world have their children die, its rare, but it happens.
L, that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read on Hatrack. Wow.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: So, I don't know how old you are, but I suggest you check with parents before you go "educating" 10 year olds.
If your not goign to say yes to that, then why on earth would your kids ask in the first place.
And you know what, your probably right. But wrong at the same time. Perants should be asked. But perants often don't make the right call. Judging by what happened in this case, i was right. Was I not? no serious injuries fallowed. Our trip to the island wasn't ruined. And people had a lot of fun.
I think finding nemo had brilliant lesson, if you don't let anything happen to your kids, nothing will happen to them.
quote:How many of you can say you died as a child?
That would have to be one of the most absurd statements I've ever read.
You can go out and enjoy yourself outside in a safe manner. Sending a 10-yr old down a zip line with a stick is not one of them. Broken bones are not the worst thing that could happen, but they aren't fun. How much time playing outside do you think you get when you have a broken arm or leg?
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
'Nothing' happening to them is not the same as nothing that can quite easily kill them. It's your job as a parent (especially of younger children) to try and keep them from serious harm. Sometimes they find it anyway, but I would never actively encourage the idiotically stupid behavior of sliding unprotected down a zipline.
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Yep, going to have to agree with Katharina whole-heartedly there.
Lor, you went from your first post, which was a fairly good one about the "overcautioning of modern life" to something that was just rotten as the second post. You're way off base.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I would be very careful with that opinion, especially considering I don't think the 10 year old was your son. You are responsible for that child while he is on your property and for any injury that comes to him under your care. How important/unimportant that injury is as a learning experience in your eyes really doesn't matter when push comes to shove.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Lorenz0, I have to admit they aren't encouraged to do much when they are at home. Mostly they come home from school, do homework, get on the internet, or watch movies. On weekends they go to the mall or the movies. They have a free swimming pool at home within walking distance and weren't allowed to go their much. They live in Hawaii, moved there 2 years ago. They get to the beach rarely and they haven't hiked the lush green forest or seen any of the breathtaking waterfalls, yet. What can I say? Posts: 180 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Just because nothing happened to your Dad and his friends doesn't mean something couldn't have. My Dad did many stupid things when he was growing up that he tried to make sure I didn't do. The reason is because he saw many of his friends get seriously injured.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Ah yes, being attacked on all fronts by tight ass overbearing north americans.
No I don't think its a good thing for your child to die, no i don't think you should put your child into a situation where they could die.
There is a line.
And somebody asked me how much time you would spend outside with a broken arm, well alot more then what you spend later on in life after you broke your neck doing something even more dangerous.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
for the record people, the fall on that line was about 6 feet onto quite soft ground. I would never put anybody into a situation that can kill them.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I was in the grocery store yesterday and I almost got involved in this mother/daughter scene that was playing out by the steak case. The mom was working from her list and the daughter was BEGGING/WHINING at her to NOT buy steak this week. As in:
"Please don't buy any steak." "Can't we go just one week without having steak, please" "Please don't buy any steak." "Can't we go just one week without having steak, please" "Please don't buy any steak." "Can't we go just one week without having steak, please" "Please don't buy any steak." "Can't we go just one week without having steak, please" "Please don't buy any steak." "Can't we go just one week without having steak, please" "Please don't buy any steak." "Can't we go just one week without having steak, please"
This went on for several minutes while the mom just sort of stood there alternating between silence and futile attempts to talk to her daughter about the proposed purchase.
Well, I let it go that time. I needed to get to the steaks, but I was nice and waited until they moved off until I made my selection. And, as it turned out, I didn't see a cut I liked so I didn't buy any steak either.
But then one aisle later I saw the mother/daughter team "negotiating" over whether to buy packaged lunch meat. Again the same whining and they were again in the way of where I needed to get in order to make my selection.
This time the girl was so upset she kept dropping some package of food on the floor of the grocery store. At least they didn't just throw the item back on the shelf. Yuck!
I ended up not saying anything, but I have to say that I was pretty much ready to lay into both of them. First off, the child was old enough to state her desires without whining or begging. Secondly, she seemed like such a spoiled brat to me. I just can't imagine begging for someone NOT to get me some nice food item. Maybe she was trying to be a vegetarian, I don't know, but she sure was annoying.
And I wanted to yell at the mom for putting up with it. And for letting her act that way in public. And for having these interminable disagreements right where I needed to get to.
Ugh!
But then I thought, well maybe this is just a bad day for them and everyone's tired and hot and feeling a little bit overwhelmed with the variety of foodstuffs found in the average Supermarket. So I just smiled and picked up a pack of Chicken Weiners and left.
Not all parents who have lost children through accidents are failures. That is why they are called "accidents." They are tragic and heartbreaking.
Then, there are parents who are truely neglectful. They don't care what their kids do, or how they treat other people as long as those kids aren't bugging them.
Risks should be taken, as well as precautions. That is called temperance and prudence. I am sick to death of concerted efforts of small groups to ban or outlaw products because one child died using it.
Is that callous? Perhaps, but accidents happen. If kids never go out an have adventures because they fear getting hurt, we are going to create a generation of people afraid to fail. If there is a fear of failure who will try anything? Is that a paradox?
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
*rolls eyes* Why is it all the STUPID people get to write the diatribes? Why can't Rabbit post something about the sad state of modern parenthood, or something, instead of leaving it to the troglodytes?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: I did have BB-Gun fights with my friends when I was young. My friend has a BB permanently stuck in his cheek because of this.
Going by Lorenzo's logic, it's a good thing this happened. If it had not, you would have grown not understanding your limits. You might have shot someone with a real gun. Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
aretee, Thank you for pointing that out. yes, I'm not suggesting we all become neglectful. But "we need to take risks as well as precautions". brilliant.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
How old are you and why do you have a 13 yr old and 10 yr old, apparently not related, going down a zip line? You are apparently at least 16. Why are younger boys hanging out with you?
Are you a parent?
Are you a teacher?
Are you in a 'big brother/big sister' program?
What is your relationship with the parents of these children?
I seriously want to know.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
First of all, don't make a leap based on your limited observations that all parents are one thing or another.
Secondly, I don't think parents should ever put their children in "risky" situations just for the learning experience. They should, however, allow their kids to get into challenging situations and solve them themselves. Allow them to explore by themselves, but be nearby. Daniel was playing outside and got into our creek bed (wet weather creek, it was dry) he walked the length of our property exploring and climibing over the rocks and tree limbs down in the creek. But when he realized he couldn't climb out again, he panicked and began screaming. I was nearby so I could go to him.
Let 'em get dirty (one of the scariest things I've ever seen was a mother at the local park, who sprayed the slide with disinfectant before her kid was allowed to slide down it.) Let 'em see new things. Don't be afraid to let them get sweaty.
But put them in actual physical danger? No. Not worth it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Personally, I think Laurenz0 would do well to stay inside for a while. Pick up a dictionary. Learn how to spell. This will come in much handier while trying to earn a living than knowing your limits on a tow line. Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
LaurenzO, I can feel where you're coming from but you're not expressing yourself well.
If a child dies in your care, it comes down to is it negligience or not, that is was the danger predictable and preventable. The trick is to balance fun and risk with prudence and safety. Parents that take all the risk out of a child's life in the name of safety tend to take almost all the fun out as well. And parents that are blase about all risk could be considered negligient or at least apathetic to their children. It's very tough and every parent makes their own choices on where the balance should lie. I agree that some risk lets you know your limitations. But too much risk can kill you. This thread reminds me of a golden age sci-fi novel where a scientist invernts robots to save him from all risk. They quickly get out of hand and stop obeying him "for his own good." Then they multiply and lay down the law for everyone. Soon all sports,bicycles, sharp scissors,knives, any and everything that could possibly harm humans are done away with. Not much fun is left. [edit:Belle makes a good point contasting risky situations with challenging situations.]
quote: Personally, I think Laurenz0 would do well to stay inside for a while. Pick up a dictionary. Learn how to spell. This will come in much handier while trying to earn a living than knowing your limits on a tow line.
Ouch
Did you think maybe Lorenz0 was putting out a large quantity of typing, along with reading other's posts and he didn't have much time to proofread?
This is what I mean by grammar bigots discounting an opinion based on presentation not logic.
Come up with something better if you think you want to score off someone.
quote:for the record people, the fall on that line was about 6 feet onto quite soft ground. I would never put anybody into a situation that can kill them.
It's worth noting, as an example, that despite all the extremely dangerous things Jackie Chan has done in his career, the time he was closest to dying was a short fall from a tree. Oh, and Belle has the idea just right.
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Unfortunately, I think one of the consequences of modern times is the need for more caution.
I remember, sometime back in elementary school, that the Native Americans had a different way of letting their children learn the ways of the world. If the child got near to a fire or put his hand in, they didn't tell him not to -- they let him, and so he learned that fire burns.
Of course, the Native Americans lived in a communal setting -- there was almost always someone there to see that the child was not permanently harmed by the experience. There were no guns -- the child couldn't shoot himself. No cars, no roads, no traffic; no toxic chemicals. And if the kid ate wild mushrooms, he learned that they made the world a very, very strange place .
Seriously, though -- while I think your point has considerable merit (I'm the child of parents who, in my opinion, found the right balance between risk and caution, allowing me and my younger sister to climb, swing, dig, splash and romp to our hearts' content, all the while avoiding serious injury entirely), I think you have to understand the parents' perspective.
Let me put it another way for you. I don't know how old you are, but you seem young -- so am I. I'm 18, and at the moment I have a boyfriend whom I've been dating almost a year now. I care about him a lot, and I really don't want anything bad to happen to him. Unfortunately for me, he drives a souped up Ford Mustang, which he street races at speeds varying anywhere from 95 to 130 miles per hour. Let me tell you how much I wish he didn't. Obviously, he's not *a* child, let alone my child, so I don't exactly have say over what he can and cannot do. But let me tell you how much I worry when he shows up anywhere 10 minutes late. He knows what he does is stupid; I know what he does is stupid. If he *were* my child, this is one fire I would not be letting him stick his hand into -- by the time he really understands how dangerous it is, he'll be dead. Obviously, you don't have any children of your own -- neither do I. From listening to parents, I don't think that there is any love that can compare to the love a parent has for a child, but try picking the next best thing. Your mom, dad, little brother or sister, your boyfriend. How would you feel if something terrible happened to one of them because of someone else's negligence?
[ August 04, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I let my son out of the house last week. Know what he learned? Not to listen to dorks like Laurenz0. Of course, he learned this right after he snapped his arm in half, so, I suppose that was a good lesson. Too bad he couldn't have stayed at home, learned that lesson when I told it to him the first time and save me a small fortune in emergency room and doctor bills. Oh, not to mention the money wasted on that summer pool pass he can't use, which is where people learn acceptable risks under the confines of supervision.
Perants just don't understand, I guess. Der. Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Rereading the first post - talk about a classic case of blame the victim.
A 10-year-old slides down a zip line at the provocation of older boys with no safeties and only a stick that has a tendency to fail and cause burns and falls. The predictable happens, and the 10-year-old is blamed for not having enough experience. He should have done stupid things like this earlier, so he'd be used to it. My stars!
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Der Grammatikfuehrer
unregistered
posted
Ellen, we prefer to be called Grammar Nazis. Please be more considerate of our feelings in the future.
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posted
Oh, and Ellen, most computers come equipped with Spell Checkers of some sort. Doing a "large quantity of typing" is really no excuse because he doesn't even really need to proofread. Any program would pick up a mistake like perants.
quote:This is what I mean by grammar bigots discounting an opinion based on presentation not logic.
See, generally, I'll poke fun of someone's spelling mistake not as a way of discounting their argument, but in order to poke fun. With Laurnez0, however, I was intentionally making a point. He needs to stop encouraging children to do dangerous things and to give him an excuse to do so, I thought he might pick up a dictionary. That, or learn where that Spell Check program is on his computer.
posted
katharina, you seem to be bashing me a lot without backing up your points, although I comment you on that gigi burn, that was quite funny.
Anyway, You say things like this is the stupidest thing you have ever heard. Could you explain to me why?
And no, I'm not blaming the victim. i don't know where the hell you got that idea from. I'm blaming the parents of the victim.
Another thing, I'm not saying force your child in to dangerous situations. God no! But for example, if your child trys to ride his or her bike of a jump or something. Put a helmet on their head and tell them what can happen. Its better he or she perform that stunt while your around instead of after they get out of your care. There are worse things than broken bones.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
And as for my grammer, i couldn't care less. Grammer is not one of my strong points nor is spelling. Plus I don;t have time to run this all through a spell check.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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