posted
Just think what all you perants were allowed to do as kids. I'm hearing a lot of "this could have happened" but I'm not hearing a lot of "this did happen".
I heard someone got a pellet in their cheek therefore what they did was stupid. Why? So you have a pellet in your cheek. I would take that for all the fun I had shooting pellets at people. Mind you, I would wear goggles.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:The mean age of those with accidental falls was 2.3 years, which is markedly younger than that seen in hospital admission series, suggesting that infants are much more likely to die from a fall than older children. Forty-one per cent of the deaths occurred from "minor" falls such as falls from furniture or while playing
From CT's mortality link. The entire study was done in one county. Parents, get your kids off all furniture stat! Or make sure there is padding everywhere. Padded rooms?
posted
I think Liam is in gymnastics, Bob. You can start gymnastics and dance classes as early as 2 and a half now.
You know, I don't think it was the implication of youth that made me feel put off by Lorenz. It was attitude.
"Parents these days are doing a poor job" in the title is not going to endear a lot of parents. Words like "piss-pour" isn't going to either.
How much different would it have been if he'd come to this thread and asked a question instead?
"Does anyone think that parents today are coddling their kids too much? It seems like most of the young kids I know never get a chance to do anything challenging, or daring in their youth because of their parents. I don't think this is a good thing."
That would have sparked a discussion. Instead he came in here and called all the parents at hatrack (the ones in North America, anyway) terrible. Then he presented his anecdotal "Proof."
You act like that at hatrack, you can expect to be knocked back a few notches.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Teens brains are just screwy and they don't realize it.
quote:And just as a teenager is all legs one day and all nose and ears the next, different regions of his brain are developing on different timetables. For instance, one of the last parts to mature is in charge of making sound judgments and calming unruly emotions. And the emotional centers in the teenage brain have already been revving up, probably under the influence of sex hormones.
This imbalance may explain why your intelligent 16-year-old doesn't think twice about getting into a car driven by a friend who is drunk, or why your formerly equable 13-year-old can be hugging you one minute and then flying off the handle the next.
So, if you don't mind, I dont' think I'll be taking parenting advice from someone who a) doesn't have children, b) doesn't understand children's limits, and c) who isn't thinking clearly.
quote: I would take that for all the fun I had shooting pellets at people. Mind you, I would wear goggles.
Oh, well it's a good thing you wear goggles, because they're sure to protect the people you shoot pellets at.
Posts: 1855 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:And, whether you want it or not, if those kids are looking up to you, you are responsible for them. I think you either rise to the occassion or you tell them to stop hanging out with you.
Period.
I wish I'd said that. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Oh, he's in gymnastics. Didn't follow directions very well. He and another kid about his age would just run around like wild boys part of the time. When that kid wasn't there, though, he behaved.
We do have plans for a martial art class. They take them as young as three, and he'll be four in September. He really is getting better. I was just thinking about it and wondering how I made it this far. Whew!
I think if he had been the first one we might not have had two. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Laurenz0, my kid listened to another kid and jumped off a deck onto a trampoline and broke his arm. Not only did he break it, he snapped it like a pencil. Both bones. We had to wait over 3 hours before they could give him the anesthesia to knock his butt out before they snapped it the opposite way (to finish breaking the bones, which were still attached by several shards of bone because neither bone broke cleanly) and then try and set the bones. One was set nice and straight. The other one was "good enough." He's young they say, and it won't matter in the long run. After a while, he won't even notice it.
Yeah, teens brains are screwy. My son has enough problems without being encouraged to do stupid things.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: Teens brains are just screwy and they don't realize it.
So much for age doesn't matter on hatrack, eh?
Well, okay, you can have your kids in a perfectly safe unchallenging enviroment. But don't blame me when they either A) Stick to the house all day or B) when they go out of your care go do something they havn't been able to do all their life and kill themselves.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:I'm hearing a lot of "this could have happened" but I'm not hearing a lot of "this did happen".
There are lots of cases of "this did happen". So far, I've found Hatrack remarkable with a widely diverse population. One demographic isn't represented here though: people who died from childhood accidents.
Here's one case of "this did happen". I know the family.
Never am I saying encourage your kids to do stupid thigns. NEver once did I say that. I would do your best to stop them from doing things short of actually not letting them do it.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Challenge doesn't equal risk, boss. Your basic premise is flawed. What does sliding down a makeshift zipline teach? In this case, it probably taught him NOT to like that sort of thing, the exact opposite of what you were aiming for.
The whole idea of a parent is to teach you things you should do and not do. If my son wanted to jump off the roof, should I counsel him against it, and if he decided to do it anyway, let him?
One being the key word. I'm sure you can provide me with thousands and thousands more, but that is still a very very small population.
I would like to hear stories from you guys about children dying because they did somethign stupid. Honestly, thats not a challange. I'm actually curious.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I know what you mean, Lorenzo. I think that maybe a lot of the parents here were put off a bit by some of your word choices, or thought you came off like you were telling them they suck at parenting when you are not a parent yourself.
I understand what you are getting at, though. Most kids do need to get out more.
Can't we agree that kids need some level of physical activity, but that parents should make sure those activities are reasonably safe?
BTW, when I was in High school, one of my best friends was in 7th or 8th grade. We went to a Christian school that was small and had split classes. she was one clsee behind me but two gtrades, I think. She was really cool and well-read. Though, I guess it is worth mentioning that her parents wanted to get to know me and my family before they let Heidi and me have a sleepover, because of our age difference. Then they saw that we were just a couple of shy bookworms that had a lot in common.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I NEVER said challenge would never have risk, just that they are not one and the same. A kid could get the same experience your deathtrap of a zipline provides with one that has some safety equipment with it.
posted
So you're hoping to hear enough stories to convince you that recklessness really is dangerous?
Posts: 2661 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Lorenzo, I'm sorry that people are coming down so hard on you; I disagree (or rather, only partially agree) with you, but I probably wouldn't have when I was 16.
God knows I did plenty of stupid stuff, including jumping off buildings, building match guns, making napalm, making my own fireworks, throwing knives into floors I would shortly be running along barefoot, hacking at putrifying dead things with rusty knives, having bottle rocket wars, etc, and only have a few scars to show for it. I was never seriously hurt, and never actually burned any buildings down, but I know people who were and did. It does happen. Younger kids are generally less dexterous and strong than older kids, and more likely to get hurt doing those same things, I think.
Also, I'm sorry that people were implying that you might be a child molester; that was really uncalled for.
Do keep in mind that younger kids tend to look up to older kids, and may do things to impress them, even if (or especially if) the older kid cautions them that it might be dangerous.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: I NEVER said challenge would never have risk, just that they are not one and the same. A kid could get the same experience your deathtrap of a zipline with one that has some safety equipment with it.
Did anybody die on that ziplne? no no they didn't. DId anybody get seriously hurt on that zipline, no no they didn't. What was the worst thing that happened because of that zip line, a kid couldn't go swimming for a week.
And it wouldn't be the same. Because there is no reason to be careful.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote: Among children aged 1-14, accidents were the leading cause of death, accounting for one-third of all deaths in this age group. In comparison 3% of deaths among adults were accidental.
quote: Assuming you're reasonably intelligent, age doesn't matter.
Yeah, JaneX, Shlomo, and Kasie are all perfect examples of age not mattering. Even Maeth (after a bit of a rough beginning) is cool. And while T_Smith nearly stopped my heart one day recounting his adventures in a squirt gun contest, he's not bad either.
There is no need to risk life and limb for a child to grow up and live a successful life. Raising them means teaching them to take reasonable risks. Not idiotic ones. People don't jump out of airplanes without checking their safety gear. Jumping out of an airplane is risky, but with the proper precautions, fun. Not risking your life is actually a good thing. You can have fun and lead a fulfilling life without breaking your neck. Or someone else's.
quote: Did anybody die on that ziplne? no no they didn't. DId anybody get seriously hurt on that zipline, no no they didn't. What was the worst thing that happened because of that zip line, a kid couldn't go swimming for a week.
Yet.
You know, that is the same argument used by people who drive drunk. The only difference between a guy with a DWI and a guy in jail for manslaughter is luck and time.
posted
Our much belabored point is that it was MORE possible to get injured on that than one with safety equipment. You know, it's funny. I was very much and indoor kid when I was young. I still know how to be careful when doing potentially hazardous things.
edit: our Queen of Exhaustive Inquiry says it much better.
posted
LorenzO, you asked for lists of stupid things some of us older folks did as kids/teens.
Well, to be truthful, I mostly hung out with kids my age and we didn't have a lot of after-school organized sports, so we mainly rode our bikes around or played basketball or baseball.
Seems rather sane in retrospect.
One game we used to play as kids in LA was "chicken" on our bicycles. It wasn't too dangerous until you got two kids who were brave enough to just keep going no matter what. OUCH!
The dumbest things we did were once we got cars, like racing in residential neighborhoods or driving on the sidewalk. Both really stupid and dangerous. Once a friend of mine tried to outrun a cop and that was a mistake too.
Before getting our licenses we rode down the steepest hill in town, which is saying something in a town that's nestled in the foothills of CA's coastal mountain range. What we didn't realize is that bicycle brakes can overheat and fail. When they do, you are pretty much in God's hands at that point. Since I was the oldest on that particular jaunt, I got chewed out royally, by my older brother. It all worked out (no deaths or injuries).
Another stupid thing we did was chase down some guys who had stolen our bicycles. Turns out they were huge and armed, but they'd made the mistake of trying to ride off on one of the bikes that had a broken chain. We were lucky that the guy just gave us the bike and left. Could've been a lot worse if he'd decided to fight. He could've killed us all easily.
Now, mind you, I had friends who did a lot of really stupid stuff involving home-made bombs and drainage culverts. But these were not people I was comfortable being around. When the lighters came out, most of us would leave to play basketball. We never thought about turning the guys in who were doing it. In retrospect that was kind of stupid too. But this is in the days before Columbine and this one kid in particular just liked loud noises. He was very strange and probably is deaf and missing some fingers by now.
Some kids should not be allowed to take science classes.
I don't really know what this sliding down a wire is all about. It sounds like something I might've tried if someone else did it first and it looked okay danger-wise. But I was a bit cautious as well. We had a few large bicycle jumps of the 6 foot variety. I never attempted them. Probably a good idea as our ground was not so much moss covered as sort of cactus and rock covered.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Age doesn't matter - Hobbes passed for 25 when he was 14 and posting on Hatrack. When his age was revealed, he was treated just the same.
Don't worry. We'd be making fun of your stupidity and recklessness with someone else's child no matter how old you were. The age just explains it a bit more.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I just gave you an example of a kid dying. Jumped off a trampoline from a roof + missed the trampoline = dead.
For the record: my husband is into extreme sports, and my boys are too. I've never had to worry about my oldest because he always approaches things cautiously and always waits until he's ready to tackle something before doing it. He's never been seriously hurt on a skateboard, snowboard or bike. Except for once when he did a wheelie and the front wheel of his bike came off.
My youngest son is much more impulsive, and he has a high pain threshold as well. But I don't worry about him because the only times he has opportunity to do big dangerous tricks is when his dad takes him skating or bmxing.
There was a kid who died in my neighborhood when he was riding his bicycle down a cement ramp in a construction zone and hit an unmarked cable/chain. It struck him at the neck and he was killed instantly.
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posted
Bob, its sounds like you did some pretty cool stuff and thats what kids should have. A chance to do dangerous stuff, to vent urges.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
qsysue, I admire you for letting your kids do that. Thats exactly what i'm talking about. Observing them and letting them do some minor stuff and then you will feel more comfortable letting them do other stuff.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:There is always reason to be careful. Recklessness is not the same as adventure. Caution is always called for. Reasonably safe situations are always better than unsafe situations.
Vana.Often it is a question of choosing among different risks and their is no reasonably safe scenario. With danger often comes opportunity. Montrose's toast, from the French Foreign Legion: "He either fears his fate too much, or his desserts are small, who dares not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all." Note that this is a soldiers's toast. But a kid who never takes any risk will be unlikely to as an adult. Evaluating and choosing among different risks is part of being an adult.
posted
I had some friends who made their own fireworks like M-80's. They were pretty cool.
Of course, one of those guys is missing 1 and 1/2 fingers from his left hand now. It's 20 years later and he's still missing those fingers. The lesson that one taught me was that they're right when they say don't hold onto lit firecrackers.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
That's good but only to a point, Morbo. Parents need to act as filters for those risks. A kid may not realize the danger of something, so his parents need to veto such recklessly dangerous actions.
quote:With danger often comes opportunity.
Too often, that opportunity can involve a trip to the hospital. Or worse.
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
But the reason someone may be choosing between risks is to decide which, if any, is the most reasonable.
And you know what? A person always has the choice not to take the risk, because it is not a reasonable one. It is a very rare situation indeed in which a person much choose between two or more unreasonable risks without the option of choosing none.
It is a parent's responsibility to help their child understand what risks are reasonable and what are not. They should not be left to decide on their own when faced with the decision.
Posts: 2661 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Sometimes, accidents happen even when parents are involved. My mom was standing in the pool to catch my little sister when she jumped in (I think she was 4 years old at the time). My sister jumped too far, and split her chin open on my mom's head. Neither one of them were very happy after that Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Too true, Tick. I'm not saying risk should be ignored. It should be minimized. But you can never have risk=0. Many lawyers would have you think so in neglgient death cases.
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posted
Oh, and before you tell me that my mom should have let her jump in by herself -- my sister wouldn't jump in AT ALL unless my mom was there to catch her.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Sorry that was implied, Lorenz, but parents tend to wonder about that kind of thing when an older child expresses an interest to just play with child 5 or so years younger than them.
I can see, in the isolated situation of being on an island with limited playmates, how that might come about though.
But I suppose if you want some examples:
A kid I grew up with got himself killed when he was around 20 because he didn't want to bother with a helmet while riding a motorcycle.
A kid I went to highschool with ran a stop sign, in the middle of farm country, thinking it would be safe because usually there are no cars around. He survived almost unhurt. But his little sister and his best friend got killed.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: It is a very rare situation indeed in which a person much choose between two or more unreasonable risks without the option of choosing none.
Vana. They may be rare, but they are crucial or pivotal events in life. A person who hasn't shied away from all risk his or her entire life would be more likely to have a better outcome.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I have never suggested that anyone should shy away from all risks.
The problem we're having here is that a lot of people are ignoring that the reasonable ground here is the middle ground.
Letting children run wild with no supervision is not reasonable. Keeping children locked in their rooms where they'll be safe is not reasonable.
Guiding your children and helping them to learn what is safe and what is not - as well as being there with them to help when they do get hurt - is reasonable. Why is it that so many of us seem to think that only the extremes exist? I just don't understand that.
Posts: 2661 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Then we are of similar minds, Morbo. We don't want to remove risk, we want the risk to mean something. In zgator's example, his friend learned that holding onto firecrackers causes your fingers to sometimes get blown off. Certainly not something everyone should have to learn first hand (no pun intended).
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Letting children run wild with no supervision is not reasonable. Keeping children locked in their rooms where they'll be safe is not reasonable.
Vana, I said almost the same thing in my first post. Striking a balance between the two is the hard part for parents. As I have no kids and probably never will, I'll duck out of this thread, after laying out this callous but apropos quote: Think of it as evolution in action.--Larry Niven. Feet don't fail me now! *bails before parents can organize lynching party*
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
In zgator's example, his friend learned that holding onto firecrackers causes your fingers to sometimes get blown off.
The stupid never learn. The intelligent learn from their mistakes. The wise learn from other's mistakes.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I didn't add much to my story because I was going to sound like a crotchety old man, but I'm going to say it anyway.
Lorenzo, one of your comments has been that nothing did happen on the zip line, which is fine. But I've thrown firecrackers before and nothing happened. I bet a lot of us have. But then I saw the case where the bad story comes true. Bad things can happen when you don't take the proper precautions.
Nine times out of ten (maybe 99 out of 100), you may fall off that zip line, even on your back, and nothing will happen worse than getting the wind knocked out of you. But there's always that one time that someone lands on their head wrong and breaks their neck (nice cliche, huh).
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Brettly10 does make a good point. It's one thing if you and others in your age group do risky stuff and possibly get hurt. It's another if a kid 5 years younger than you does.
posted
I don't know how many times my cousins and my brother and I would ride our bikes through the trails in the wooded area near my grandparents house. Nothing ever happened, until my cousin (Fael's oldest son) had to be rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery and lost his spleen and very nearly died from internal injuries.
I think this proves a point - you say that accidents where kids get hurt are rare, and yet all these hatrackers know someone who had a serious childhood accident....they really aren't that rare.
While you can't put your kids in a padded room to keep them safe all their lives, you do have a responsibility to keep them from being exposed to unnecessary risk. Putting a 10 year old on a homemade zip line with no safety equipment = unnecessary risk.
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