quote: I mean no disrespect, but reasoning like this (or like Pascal's Wager) is one of the reasons I prefer agnosticism. Believing in God to better your odds? Of all the excellent reasons to believe in a God, that one seems awfully self-serving to me.
It's not a reason to belive God, it's a reason to consider that he exists and give him a try.
Bob- This is good reasoning. But if that's a good reason to get rid of religion, then can I request that we get rid of liberal ideals? Or those of feminists? Or anybody who's opinion might affect my lifestyle? Just because I feel like Democrats are wiggling into every nook and cranny of my life, I'm not asking us to get rid of the liberal way of thinking. If you think religion bugs you, that's a better reason to move, not get rid of religion.
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Well Hobbes, if you don't believe in God, then it does.
Granted, that's only specific to you. If as many people believed in a tea cup orbiting the sun as believe in God, then I'm sure it *would* have an affect on me. If only through them.
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My point is that you hopefully you've put more effort in to finding out if God exists than you did if this tea cup exists. Because if you get the first one wrong (either way) it's probably not a good thing, where as if you get the second one mixed up I don't think you'll regret it too much.
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Once you "give god a try" you already have lost. When you begin to entertain irrational beliefs there is no set way for you to evaluate anything or reverse yourself from the illogical black hole you are sucked into. Giving faith a try is ridiculous, because once you really do it without holding back you have destroyed any kind of ethical mental self-discipline you may have.
[ August 22, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Duragon C. Mikado ]
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quote: It doesn't matter if we can or cannot know. If we cannot "know" something that hasn't been proven anyway, why bother? I am not going to spend my life trying to prove that there really is no tea cup orbiting the sun.
And you shouldn't, because that would hardly affect your life. But the existence of God (edit: or not) certainly DOES affect your life in a profound way.
quote:it's a reason to consider that he exists and give him a try.
how do you give god a try? seriously. i don't understand the concept of that.
like start going to church and see if you enjoy the experiences and agree with its tenets? I'm sure i would and I do. But that doesn't mean i'll start believing in God.
And this is coming from someone that used to be a religious member of a faith, and while i still agree with what my religion set forth in its ideals, I don't believe a supreme being exists and i'm not willing to devote my time and energy to something that while i may agree with it's ideals I don't believe in at a fundemental level.
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The belief in God certainly affects my life, since it affects so much of the population in which I live. But how does the existence (or nonexistence) of God have a bearing on my day to day life?
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Hobbes, I used to think it was worth my time to consider all the various gods and theologies I was presented with. I did this. I disproved each many different ways to at least my own satisfaction, therefore I am convinced that all forms of god that have been presented are not even possible. I take care of the rest of the types of possible gods with the simple response that there has been nothing to indicate they exist.
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Well it does depend on which God is apparently existing here, but if God is Christian than it will give you a clear set of morals and guidlines to follow as well as more happieness (on average) and hope.
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What if the tea cup's gravitational field had just enough influence to knock down an asteriod on us? How could this possibly not be important?
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I'm also a semi-atheist. I have so much trouble believing in God because how can I possibly believe in God with all of the horrible crap that happens in the world, children hurt, people dying in meaningless ways, I can't reconsile. Plus, a lot of the basic beliefs of Christianity make me scream which is why I turned to Paganism in the first place. Then I end up toying with the odd idea that perhaps God lies in the connections between people, but certain things like prejudice and war sever these important connections which are the only things that keep the world from not becoming worse than it already is... what do you think of that idea?
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Just in case PSI continues to read the thread, I'll address her post properly.
>> Why are there so many threads that end up being "There is no God" that are dominated by all of you who insist there isn't one? Why even start the thread? I don't believe in walking, talking rocks with tentacles and google eyes. How many threads have I put on this forum pointing that out? <<
First, if you'd read the thread you'd see that no one has so much as suggested that there is definitively no god. But nonetheless, the question of god's existence is of considerably more importance and interest than the existence of talking rocks. So it gets discussed more.
>> This isn't supposed to be insulting, it's supposed to show you that, even in people who are positive that they are atheists (not to say that you all are), there is an inborn need to find out the truth about God. <<
Curiosity is a strong human trait. We like having questions answered. The existence of god is a big question. Thus we discuss it. Is it really so terrible?
>> Or to convince yourself that there isn't one. Okay, so just say it. "There is no God." Go on about your lives. But you won't be able to. Know why? Because there IS one. You'll never be able to let it go. <<
That doesn't follow at all. Theists make up some 95% of the population of the world. The reason agnostics, atheists, and apatheists can't let it go is that we are surrounded by religious people in our daily lives. The thought that they might not all be deluded is sure to cross our minds.
>> Guys, don't be afraid to give it a CHANCE. I'm not saying get on your knees right not and worship God, I'm just saying, allow yourselves to be open to anything he might say to you. It might make you feel stupid. You may never hear him. <<
I've done this. I really have. And so has, for example, TomDavidson (another agnostic who has posted to this thread). Don't assume that I dismiss religion out of hand. I've put a great deal of thought and introspection into my views.
>> But if I'm wrong, I'll go to the grave happy, and then I'll cease to exist. If you're wrong though, you go to hell. I really don't want anyone to go to hell. Just think about it. <<
To be honest, I refuse to believe in a god who wouldn't let David Bowles (an atheist, but an upstanding fellow) into heaven. I refuse to believe in a god who would condemn Mahatma Ghandi or my father. If god is like that, I'll take hell. And I mean that in all seriousness. If god is like that, I couldn't be happy in heaven unless god tampered with my mind.
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quote:To be honest, I refuse to believe in a god who wouldn't let David Bowles (an atheist, but an upstanding fellow) into heaven. I refuse to believe in a god who would condemn Mahatma Ghandi or my father. If god is like that, I'll take hell. And I mean that in all seriousness. If god is like that, I couldn't be happy in heaven unless god tampered with my mind.
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Hobbes, if the christian god really exists then it would also mean there is an evil manipulative and sadistic god waiting for you to die so he can play with you for eternity. I base this statement off this simple argument
The christian god purports to be able to see the future. The christian god claims he loves all of us. The christian god sends some of us to hell.
Therefore, because the christian god knew that some of us would suffer for eternity before he created us, he wanted those people to suffer and thinks it is good/enjoys it. Conlcusion: if christian god exists he is horryifying sadist. Posts: 622 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Well than that's fine, Duragon, if you've put thought into it and made your desicion than what I said doesn't apply to you.
Hatrack is self-selecting that way, I think. There are very few people here, I suspect, that hold the religious views they do without a lot of introspection and soul-searching.
This is one of the many reasons I won't discuss religion on any other forum.
[ August 22, 2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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ok, everyone stop, take a deep breath, and slow down a bit.
not because this is getting too heated, but because i can't possibly keep up with the pace at which this thread is expanding. I'd be willing to posture that it's at a faster rate then the expansion of the universe!
Therefore proving the existence of God because God likes it when we talk about him, and has motivated us to discuss this at great lengths.
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There's another problem with Christianity, I HATE the concept of hell so much. If people already suffer on earth, why do they need to suffer for all eternity just for not believing in God or having a different religion? This idea has ALWAYS bothered me.
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quote: Once you "give god a try" you already have lost. When you begin to entertain irrational beliefs there is no set way for you to evaluate anything or reverse yourself from the logic black hole you are sucked into. Giving faith a try is ridiculous, because once you really do it without holding back you have destroyed any kind of ethical mental self-discipline you may have.
So let me get this straight. Let's say you decide to "give God a try" and then discover within yourself that there is no God. You've tried everything you know to prove that he exists, but you've concluded that he just doesn't. Does that mean from that point on that you have no chance of ever looking at anything objectively ever again? You might as well kill yourself rather than go on because there's no point to your life anymore? I'm sure this sounds melodramatic, but that's how you sound to me.
It's seems like most of you are saying that you don't really believe because no one has proven to you that God exists. Sure, there's plenty of eyewitness accounts that are written down, but those people are probably just blinded by their "faith" and so they didn't know what they were talking about. Or maybe they were just liars. Sure, you have friends that say they have personal feelings that they attribute to their faith, but they are just letting their emotions get to them, right? So let's say I hand you a box and say "If you look in the box here, there is proof of a God. All you have to do is open it." How "logical" is it for you to throw the box in the trash? You say you want "proof" that God exists. I'm telling you how to get it. You are running away. And you think you're so "logical".
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quote: First, if you'd read the thread you'd see that no one has so much as suggested that there is definitively no god. But nonetheless, the question of god's existence is of considerably more importance and interest than the existence of talking rocks. So it gets discussed more.
This is not quite accurate. None of the rational people have said anything quite so silly as "there is definitely no God", but Duragon certainly has. Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
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quote: So let me get this straight. Let's say you decide to "give God a try" and then discover within yourself that there is no God. You've tried everything you know to prove that he exists, but you've concluded that he just doesn't. Does that mean from that point on that you have no chance of ever looking at anything objectively ever again? You might as well kill yourself rather than go on because there's no point to your life anymore? I'm sure this sounds melodramatic, but that's how you sound to me.
One has to concede to the fact that some things cannot be explained, only felt, only understood with a whole different set of senses, which is why I cannot rule God out completely. But then some religion gets thrown in the mix and my hackles rise as a lot of the beliefs are contrary to everything I believe...
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quote:You say you want "proof" that God exists. I'm telling you how to get it. You are running away. And you think you're so "logical".
i don't know if this was just directed at Duragon, but i'm telling you that i *gave* God a try for the majority of my life. Apparently i wasn't trying hard enough because i'm an evil heretic sinner now...
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PSI -- please read the post I directed at you before saying that "most of you" believe of say anything in particular. Please. As a personal favour. I really did try to address your post and I don't want that to get lost in the luminiferous ether.
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quote: First, if you'd read the thread you'd see that no one has so much as suggested that there is definitively no god.
I guess I don't understand what an atheist is. I thought it was someone that doesn't believe in God. Am I wrong? How can you not believe in something unless you're sure it doesn't exist?
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>> I guess I don't understand what an atheist is. I thought it was someone that doesn't believe in God. Am I wrong? How can you not believe in something unless you're sure it doesn't exist? <<
"I believe that god does not exist."
"I do not believe that god exists."
See how the two statements differ? The first is active disbelief, the second is not.
quote: So let's say I hand you a box and say "If you look in the box here, there is proof of a God. All you have to do is open it." How "logical" is it for you to throw the box in the trash? You say you want "proof" that God exists. I'm telling you how to get it. You are running away. And you think you're so "logical".
I still see no logical construct pointing to the idea that there is a God. Just give belief a chance? That's logical? Posts: 2506 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:"If you look in the box here, there is proof of a God. All you have to do is open it." How "logical" is it for you to throw the box in the trash? You say you want "proof" that God exists. I'm telling you how to get it. You are running away. And you think you're so "logical".
I think the glaring weakness in this analogy is the absence of a box.
It's more like holding your hands out like you're holding a box and telling someone to open it. Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I get freaked out because I really believe that there is a God and a Hell. I really believe God loves us, but that he expects us to respect him. And so I get very scared by everyone saying that they don't believe, or don't want to or whatever. I'm NOT trying to be a stupid jerk although that's where I always end up heading. I get so upset because I actually care about you all, even though I've never met you. There are so many awesome people here, and you're so eclectic. So please, don't hate me because I let my fear for you get in the way of how I speak (or type.) I just don't want to see any of you searching, feeling lost, when I feel like I've found the thing that keeps me from feeling lost. I know that you don't all agree with me and there's nothing I can do about that. I'm going to a different thread so that I can let you guys resume the convo you were having before I came. Sorry that I was harsh and I hope you guys will understand why I freaked out.
(This is where Tom would smack me.)
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PSI Teleport, I'd appreciate it if you didn't tell me why I left the church. I think I remember.
It was not done in haste. It was not done impetuously. It was not done in anger, or in revolt, or to be cool. It was not done so I could get away with things the church wouldn't allow.
It was because I had questions about religion that religion itself could not answer, no matter how many I studied. It was because study of human nature revealed to me how necessary it was for people to have meaning assigned to them, to have hope for celestial justice to account for the material unfairness of the universe, to provide standards of behavior, to offer something to salve the fear of death. It was because I could see no compelling reason to pick one god over any other, and even less to assume there were no gods.
Most of all, it was because I firmly believe in accepting the consequences of your actions. I cannot abide in a religion based on the concept of a scapegoat, an innocent to die for my sins so I can escape the responsibility.
I don't believe in God just in case so I'm covered when I die. Death holds no horrors for me. I don't believe in God so I'll have meaning or morals in my life. I have plenty without him. I don't believe in God so I'll have hope. I have hope enough in myself and my family. I don't believe in God in the hopes that he'll grant me wishes or otherwise change things on my behalf.
But, and this is the part that's going to be hard to understand after all that, I don't look down on anyone who believes in God for any of these reasons. Even less would I look down on someone who believes in God because of their own experiences of life or of immanence. I am not them, I haven't lived their lives, I don't have their motivations or histories, and it would be crass indeed of me to look down on anybody.
Besides, they might be right.
Instead I live the best life I can. If there is a God and he is petty enough to boot me out for being a good person without him, so be it.
(Edited after I posted and then caught up) PSI, no worries. It's amazing that we can talk about this as long as we can without emotions flaring up. All is well.
[ August 22, 2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
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I realize that it's tough to set aside your deeply-held beliefs, particularly because of the implications they hold for those of us who don't share them. I understand if you'd rather just not think about that. It's okay.
Edit: Chris, that post is why you should always post in these threads. You rock, man.
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*feels the same way as Chris Bridges* I left the religion i was born in because it was like a snake breaking out of its skin. It just grew too tight for me.
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You realize that if I die and there is a heaven, God is going to hold this thread up and laugh at me Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Just because I feel like Democrats are wiggling into every nook and cranny of my life, I'm not asking us to get rid of the liberal way of thinking. If you think religion bugs you, that's a better reason to move, not get rid of religion.
But you see, PSI, the US Constitution pretty much guarantees that people don't have to live under RELIGIOUS doctrines that they despise. No such guarantees exist to protect anyone against unwanted non-religious ideas.
So, if you don't like the Constitution, maybe it's an argument for you to move, not me...
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