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This is my dad's heritage: His father is German-Jew and his mom is Syrian. That's it.
Suddenly he is completely denying any Jewish/Arabic heritage at all. He insists that his father is a mixture of German and Dutch? and his mother is BRITISH?????! The woman is a Syrian Jew. They are treated like a religious group and not a racial group, and are included as being Arabic. How is it possible that he forgot all of this? It was part of our heritage and pride five years ago. Now he insists that, in effect, he is all-white. (No way...you can tell by looking at him that he is not.)
THEN I find out that he has been watching "Shepherd's Chapel" and that the "pastor" support the "Christian Identity" which basically says that the true descendents of the Jews are the Americans and British (basically a form of White Supremacy) and that everyone else is a "kenite" or a descendent of Cain, who was the son of Eve and...Satan??? What??? How can my dad believe in something that says that if he isn't white, then he is going to Hell? That's so stupid! Nevermind that almost everyone in the US came from somewhere else. I don't understand this. He used to be proud of all of this. I'm so mad that he is trying to make me give up half of myself by denying that I ever was anything other than "just white".
He needs a spanking! Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
And let me add that his new "religion" believes that my marriage is invalid because it's "bi-racial." Whatever. My husband is Native American. According to his new "religion", doesn't that mean Jesse is a true descendent?
What is going on???
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posted
All my life he has been the most un-radical guy I can think of. (Not in a democratic way, although that is also true.) I think this pastor guy just panders to what was in him all along, unfortunately. We grew up in a community that was anti-black, which Dad liked. Luckily I had a brain and didn't get caught up in that idiocy.
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posted
Well, my mom divorced my dad after he'd been cheating on her for a while. Then nothing happened for a while, he just kind of floated. I guess he was searching or something. The scary thing is, I keep calling this his "new" religion, but he's been following this guy for a while. It just never occured to me to really check it out until recently. I listen to a show and it raised more questions than it answered, which raised a big warning flag. Then I really started searching and found out lots of scary stuff. The worst part is that I found several big chunks of scripture that showed how his stuff wasn't really biblical, and when I showed him he got all mad and said something like, "I hate it when people try to refute my whole belief with one or two scriptures." My opinion is, if it can be done that easily, then it probably isn't founded in truth.
Before this he really had no religion. He was sort of a "nominal" Christian.
posted
How can you help him? What if you all sat down with him and told him you thought he was nuts? Sort of an intervention? It sounds serious, and I am so sorry for you.
Have you researched to see if this group has ever been involved in any kind of violent acts? is there a legal path here?
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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PSI I'm so sorry! It sounds like your dad is a sort of Archie Bunker type without the restraint of an Edith nor a Meathead to rein him in. Please be careful, it could be a rather dangerous situation for you and your family.
Here's hoping that it resolves itself in a positive way and that your Dad comes to his senses.
Posts: 168 | Registered: Aug 2003
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According to him, none but his own. He has an interesting view of Christianity that seems a remarkable mix of southern Baptist and Church of God, seventh day. Fascinating. Oh - and some random stuff he seems to have pulled out of hammer space . . .
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Actually, in a lot of ways, they are similar to Jehovah's Witnesses. Except for coming to your door. These people don't actually get off the couch. They don't go to church, but rather, watch this guy's show on TV. And there's a lot of it. Now that Dad is in Ecuador, he has a satallite, and he can watch this pastor guy TWENTY-FOUR hours a day. If that's not scary, I don't know what is. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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This happens sometimes, especially when people have been going through a tough time in life. One author (I can't recall the name right now) calls it "snapping."
I'm going to recommend that you read a book that will scare the stuffing out of you when you read it. You should read it anyway. It has some information on the Christian Identity movement and an allied movement called Seedline Identity Christians. It will give you more information about what these groups believe, and why they believe it, and how they operate. Please, please, don't freak out when you read it, because much of the information in it - about militias and such - may not pertain directly to your father's situation. But it may well lead you to more information that you can use to understand what you father is going through and perhaps to help him out of it.
The book is called Soldiers of God, and it is by Howard L. Bushart, John R. Craig, and Myra Barnes, Ph.D. It has a fairly extensive bibliography that can lead you to information that may help you out.
I'll be sending positive thoughts your way.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Wow, Psi, that's too bad, and creepy. I was going to say I couldn't recall anyone similar, then I remembered my roommate Vic from my freshman year at college. Vic was half Asian, (Vietnamese or Korean, can't remember) and half American. Yet he hated blacks so much he was a member of the KKK! Apparently, he just ignored the crazy anti-gook rhetoric the KKK used. He couldn't understand why me and another roommate thought it was hilarious and pathetic that someone who came from a mixed marriage and was half Asian sent in dues to the KKK. Poor Vic.
littlemissattitude is right, the Christian Identity movement is very scary. HBO has done several good documentaries about them. This guy has funny take on Christian Identity:
quote: "I think in some ways Christian Identity is designed for pantywaists who are afraid to declare themselves true Nazis," Vanderbaugh jibed. "These are the folks who have to tell their mommas or their wives, "It's OK that we hate blacks and Jews, dear, because God and Jesus told us it's OK. Whereas the Nazis don't worry about that kind of thing. They're sort of beyond excuses.
"You know, when you've got Adolf Hitler as your standard-bearer, what else have you got to be embarrassed about?" Vanderbaugh said.
"They each come to their pus-filled beliefs by different roads, but they agree on the destination."
The Southern Poverty Law Center has been fighting racist groups for 32 years successfully. They were instrumental in bankrupting the KKK. If I had more money and was feeling charitable, I'd donate money to them. They have done a lot of good for the South.
Your Dad sounds like he's in total denial of the facts. I'm with Elizabeth, an intervention may be in order. Do you have kids or siblings? Get them involved. Are your grandparents alive? If not, get together any pictures or documents showing they were Jewish and Arabic. Or just organize family stories in a coherent way to present at an intervention. I'm afraid any intervention I'd organize would end up like the one on last season's The Sopranos, with people whaling on each other. Get some advice from rabbis or pastors or via the internet.
While this "Shepard's Chapel" sounds fairly vanilla for a Christian Identity group, if your Dad gets sucked into that whole mindset he could come to embrace more radical doctrine.
Good luck dealing with all this! Morbo
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I mean, is he hurting anyone? Endangering his livelihood by giving them his savings? Sending nasty letters out?
It sounds to me like a mess, but really... he's lonely, he's divorced, his kids are grown, he's in a different county, and he's an adult. If you want to preserve your relationship, it's probably okay to let him do this and stay his daughter. You have already tried to point out the things wrong with this new religion that he likes, and it hasn't worked. I doubt you'll get a more pleasant reception after informing of the what you have learned from a book that villifies it.
Yes, I think he's gone a little nuts, and I don't believe it.
But if he isn't hurting anyone, I'd just let him know you love him and that you're family. It sounds like he's looking for a place to belong to, and if you are going to try to take that away from him, you need to provide him with an alternative.
Take heart. A majority of conversions to a wildly different religion that puts them outside the mainstream don't stick.
posted
Yeah kat, you are coming the closest on this measure. He's not really dangerous, but I do believe he's in danger. He's denying the existence of the Trinity, which is a big deal. As far as physically being harmed or harming someone, I don't think so. But I do believe this whole thing is right up dad's alley, and he's got forty more years to get completely sucked in.
I actually heard a clip where this pastor pulled a gun on someone who questioned him during a teaching situation. That's pretty stupid. Then of course he refuses to admit it. I just wonder how long it will be before he accepts all this crazy stuff.
Really, I'm more angry than anything. He's just being so dumb.
added: The thing is, I don't think dad's going to ever believe it isn't true. First, he thinks this guys is one of the only "true" Christians left and that if he doesn't listen to him, he'll die or go to hell or something. The guy claims to have a "secret knowledge" of the Bible. Dad just thinks he is so "blessed" with the gift of pulling stuff out of his butt. And dad's been talking about him so highly that I don't think he could ever admit he was wrong. He's one of the most "proud" guys I know.
posted
This reminds me of the Malcolm X autobiography. When he first got into it, he believed some pretty crazy things. He stuck with them for fifteen years, and then changed when another life event happened - stayed Muslim, just a different (more historically accurate) kind.
Your dad sounds like he's looking for love and acceptance (heck, we all are in one way or another) - I really don't think criticizing the religion will help. If you are sincerely concerned for his physical well-being, then I think you could have a talk with him where you make him promise that if anyone pulls a gun/demands all his money/suggests a felony, he's out of there. He won't believe it could ever happen, so should have no problem promising.
As for his soul... it is a very big deal. Hmm... Brigham Young once said that no one is ever dragged to heaven. I really think this is his decision - he needs you to be family. Even if he never gives this up, he's still family, and you're more likely to be a good influence if he knows that you love him no matter what. The hard part of about criticizing someone's religion is that if they really are believing it, it feels like a personal criticism. It's hard to feel that the person who is attacking what feels like you actually loves you still.
Added: Anger sounds like it would be a natural reaction - I hate it when people are idiots, and it hurts especially when it is someone you are supposed to be able to rely on.
My best friend told me once that anger is ALWAYS a secondary emotion - that the real emotion is most often hurt or shame, which makes us feel helpless, and we turn it into anger, which makes us feel like we can do something about it.
I don't know if that's helpful - it's just what occurred to me.
posted
Tom- I was referring to his personal state. For himself, at this moment, it is more dangerous for him to be denying the Trinity. In the long run, and for other people, it would be more dangerous if he started killing or condemning people for his beliefs (his own people) but so far he's not doing that. So far he's just being a slug on the couch, and sort of trying to pretend he doesn't dig all the racist angles.
quote: My best friend told me once that anger is ALWAYS a secondary emotion - that the real emotion is most often hurt or shame, which makes us feel helpless, and we turn it into anger, which makes us feel like we can do something about it.
Wow I dig this. I've had a problem with anger for a long time which I am trying to overcome and it's helpful to look at it from this point of view. Thanks for it!
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It sounds as if your father has had a psychotic break. Or, at a minimum, some sort of nervous breakdown.
For starters, he's denying a known reality. For finishers, he appears to have entered into a dangerous cult, run by a gun-wielding charismatic leader.
I dont think that his opinion on the Trinity should be on your A-list of worries. I'd put that one right alongside the worry as to whether he leaves the kitchen light on when he goes out.
He sounds irrational, and I wouldn't put the "dangerous to others" card too far down in the deck.
It sounds as if you are no longer living at home. That would be good. Who else is, and can they get safe?
1) Get away 2) Get safe 3) Get help 4) Get him help
But, then, I'm just a cynical atheistic SOB. What the heck do I know.
posted
OK, I know that this thread is supposed to be making PSI feel better. But if no one else is going to say it, I still am:
PSI, if you think these wackos are ANYTHING like Jehovah's Witnesses, then you too are insane.
With the single exception that JW's don't believe in a trinity, there is not another belief I can find there that is similar. I personally believe that JW's are the most racially integrated and non violent religion on the planet.
Sorry your dad joined a whacko church, but casting aspersions on other religions to make yourself feel better is just weak.
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Slash- Sorry, I didn't list the JW similarities. I don't have time right now but I will very soon.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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No Hell Belief in annihilation No Trinity Believe that Christ did not rise in flesh, but in spirit, despite what Christ himself said. Both impose a Christian meaning on pyramids and other pagan practices, yet denounce Easter as being purely pagan. Both believe in following kosher eating practices. Both insist on using Yahweh and Yeshuah, etc. Both founders claim to have a secret and superior knowledge of the Bible, and claim to know the true Hebrew and Greek meanings of the Bible, although both have been shown to not actually know those languages. Both founders have many followers who believe they are each one of the two witnesses from Revelation. Both founders have made false predictions (aka false prophecies).
Granted, a lot of cults have similar things in common. These are just what I noticed when looking up this pastor, and also looking up Jehovah's Witnesses as I have them coming to my house a lot recently.
And don't worry about making me feel better!!! I'd rather have insight if that's what you'd prefer to give. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
::He used to be proud of all of this.:: referring to non-white heritage.
Personally, I never understood having pride in racial heritage of any kind. It's not like I did anything. I knew a guy who was proud of being tall. I don't get it.
On another note, not liking "biracial" marriage is very much against the teachings of the bible. Remind him that Moses' wife was black, and see how he likes it. :-)
Perhaps if people spent more time reading the Bible than reading *about* it and listening to people talk *about* it, there wouldn't be so many misconceptions. You really have to have help to misunderstand some of this stuff.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
It's true that people should just read the Bible on their own. It's obvious that Dad never reads it on his own. He can never remember where anything was. He'll spout some completely ridiculous thing, and then say, "Sorry, I can't remember where I read that.
It's okay to be proud of who you are.
edit to remove four dozen unnecessary parentheses.
posted
No Hell - this is true Belief in annihilation - this is true No Trinity - this is true Believe that Christ did not rise in flesh, but in spirit, despite what Christ himself said. - ummm, not sure where christ said he rose in flesh Both impose a Christian meaning on pyramids and other pagan practices, yet denounce Easter as being purely pagan. - this is false. JW's have nothing to say about the pyramids, and reject ALL pagan practices, including easter Both believe in following kosher eating practices. - this is patently false Both insist on using Yahweh and Yeshuah, etc. - this is not true, they call god Jehovah, and Jesus Jesus Both founders claim to have a secret and superior knowledge of the Bible, and claim to know the true Hebrew and Greek meanings of the Bible, although both have been shown to not actually know those languages. - this is not true, though many JW's are students of greek and aramaic Both founders have many followers who believe they are each one of the two witnesses from Revelation. - not sure where this came from, but it's not true Both founders have made false predictions (aka false prophecies). - which one? That the world would radically change in 1914 (which it did)?
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posted
You know, you might want to be a bit more familiar with facts before you go tossing the word cult around when referring to people's religious beliefs.
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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This is posted for Primal Curve because he can't get into Hatrack right now:
quote:I go to an inter-denominational church that preaches some of the stuff the Shepherd's chapel does. Some of the exceptions are pretty blatant (like the inter-racial marriage thing) but the lists that people give about Shepherd's chapel are a little absurd. They seem to be freaking out about minor issues that aren't ultimately important."
No Hell: My church preaches this as a possibility. From a theological standpoint, there is nothing without God. If you are seperated from God you are nothing."
Annihilationism: See above.
No Trinity: My church does preach the existance of the trinity. It's considered one of the core values of protestant christianity.
The use of Yahweh: This is something that my church does as well. It's just considered a revision of the common "Jehovah." It's not a huge issue. Jehovah is supposed to be the nickname the Jews gave to God so that they wouldn't use his real name "Yahweh." Or something to that effect. Like I said, not a huge freaking issue.
False Predictions (aka false prophecies): What church hasn't? All kinds of people have had "feelings" and "predictions" for the end times. That is a blatantly hypocritical statement.
All of the above information comes from Primal Curve, and is about his (non JW) church.
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
I wasn't trying to be insulting when I said that. I have always used "cult" to mean "any religion other than my own" which is a valid definition. I am well aware that anyone who does not agree with my beliefs may label them as "a cult". No big deal. I was not trying to be offensive.
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posted
Yeah, I've had feelings about the end times. The difference is that I don't go around telling them to everyone and then say that it's because I have had a special revelation from God or because I'm his special messenger. I don't claim to find things in the Bible that aren't there like this guy does. I don't claim to have a special authority on the Bible. And I don't use that "authority" to try and pass my own ideas off as being scriptural truth.
I have listened to him, quite often before I started questioning what he says. I've heard him say things and I've check my Bible and my lexicon to see if he was right. I've found that a bunch of the stuff he says is right. But the small chunk of stuff he says that is wrong is enough to freak me out and believe that this guy doesn't have ANY special insight into anything. The things that are wrong are DANGEROUSLY wrong and could lead someone down the wrong path, easily, as my dad is now traveling.
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posted
The problem, PSI, is that your definition is not the same as other people's. In fact, 'cult' has an almost universally derogatory connotation.
While you may be okay with your religion being called a 'cult' by someone who feels that every other religion but their own falls into this catagory, because of it's accept overtones most people are NOT okay with it.
I'm sorry you've been misinformed about JW's, but that's what's great about Hatrack. There are many religions represented, and you could probably be directed to a representative of that religion so that accidental aspersions don't occur.
First off, I'm terribly sorry you have to see this happen to someone you obviously love and care about.
I don't have much to offer in terms of advice. But here's a question that any good Christian should ask themselves in examining ANY believe, it seems to me:
How does this <insert belief or idea here> fit in with Jesus' message of love and compassion?
If one gives in to hate, one does it on ones own, not because God has commanded it. These people may have lost sight of that and think that they've discovered some things that God really really wants them to hate in order to prove their worth, or what have you.
But they haven't. What they've discovered is that the Bible can be misused and that people can convince themselves far too easily that they have received a message (or call) from God to take some kind of action.
One thing that may give you some "hope" in this trial is the book by Eric Hoffer called The True Believer. It is also very scary, but in it he notes that people who are so called "true believers" often switch their allegiance in the face of some triggering event (usually a negative like NOT getting the powerful position of authority that they'd come to expect). Sadly, what it shows is that the "movement" they belonged to wasn't really what it was all about. There was something else that they were getting out of it -- some personal aggrandizement or rewarding stimulation that they deeply needed.
Without a whole lot of review of your father, it seems to me that this is what might be going on. He glommed onto this idea when he was vulnerable and, in fact, may be afraid of giving it up because now the whole thing is a crutch, a part of his bulwark against his own feelings of guilt and inadequacy.
Ideally, you'd be able to get him to see a therapist, but I doubt it. My hope, really, is that maybe you can cajole him into a less radical Christian community and maybe those good people can help him through this.
I know a pastor or two who could probably straighten him out in a few minutes -- if he'd be willing to listen at all.
I'll add you & your dad to my prayers as well.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Cult does not and has never meant any religion other than one's own. In all definitions of cult that could be generally applied, the definition also refers to one's own religion, and in recent years cult has taken on almost universally negative connotations, making it a word more suited to derogatory usage, particularly if one wishes to avoid insulting people.
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quote: How does this <insert belief or idea here> fit in with Jesus' message of love and compassion?
Bob S An excellent all-purpose debunker of any Christian Identity or other hate-filled "Christian" movement. You could just roll with this instead of a formal intervention. Let him try to reconcile any messages of hate and racism with "turn the other cheek" or "love thy neighbor as thy self" or a 100 other scriptures where Jesus preaches love and acceptance. Try to get him to think about the hate he's believing in, and maybe he'll see the truth about Christian Identity.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote: To say that I teach racism or practice racism is another outright lie. We have people of all races that attend and study with the Shepherd's Chapel. It is very simple to prove this statement. We televise our annual Passover meetings including video interviews of many of the thousands who attend. Order a video tape of any of these interviews and you will see people of all races which effectively documents the falseness of any charges that I teach racism
Somehow I found this passage halarious. "Buy our videos, and we'll show you that we can film people of different races."
quote: Personally, I never understood having pride in racial heritage of any kind. It's not like I did anything. I knew a guy who was proud of being tall. I don't get it.
Well, I come from a predominately white (possibly a pinch of Jewish) heritage. I'm proud of the stuff my ancestors did, mostly immigrating from Scotland, playing stickpull with Joseph Smith, crossing the plains, and one brought Martin Harris to Salt Lake City. I like hearing about them from my parents and grandparents. I like knowing that in a small way, their stories are affecting me, and so, in a small way, they're still around. I wouldn't mind if my great-great grandkids told stories about me one day, and continued to be proud of that heritage.
Having said that, I think any notion of racial superiority is evil. I may be proud of my white ancestors, but that doesn't mean I think white people are any better than people of different ethnicities.
Here's an idea PSI, I sort of got it from Morbo: start displaying pictures of your Jewish/Arabic ancestors in your own home, and tell stories to members of your own family (sorry, I don't know if you have kids or not). I don't mean this in a passive-aggressive way, but if your father sees that you still respect your heritage in your own way, it might stick with him.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
It was embarassingly recent that I learned my religion (LDS) doesn't believe in "the Trinity". We believe in a Godhead of three separate personages. It could be said to have many of the other characteristics you discussed:
No Hell: We have 3 kingdoms of heaven and then outer darkness, but there is debate over whether even Judas and Hitler will go there. Actually there is not debate. We just tend to leave it alone. Belief in annihilation: Again, we avoid specifics on this but do believe there is going to be massive devastation prior to the second coming. No Trinity: See above Believe that Christ did not rise in flesh, but in spirit, despite what Christ himself said.: This we don't believe. Both impose a Christian meaning on pyramids and other pagan practices, yet denounce Easter as being purely pagan.: We do have scriptures showing Abraham in Egypt with Astronomical stuff, that could be construed as pagan. Both believe in following kosher eating practices.: We have the no coffee/tobacco thing, and Brigham Young discouraged eating pig, but that's about it. Both insist on using Yahweh and Yeshuah, etc.: LDS use a variety of terms so this would be a no. Both founders claim to have a secret and superior knowledge of the Bible, and claim to know the true Hebrew and Greek meanings of the Bible, although both have been shown to not actually know those languages.: Joseph Smith (LDS founder) was working on an inspired translation of the bible, but it was based on inspiration, not linguistic prowess. Though he was a student of biblical languages. He translated the Book of Mormon from and unknown language, again not by learned knowledge. Both founders have many followers who believe they are each one of the two witnesses from Revelation.: I have known at least one LDS person who hoped to be part of this prophecy. But he realized it would be a weird thing to share freely with people. Both founders have made false predictions (aka false prophecies).: My great great grandfather John Taylor, who was the church's third prophet, failed in a sugar beet venture. But I don't know if he undertook it with the spirit of prophecy. Joseph Smith ordained his son David to succeed him in church leadership, but it didn't happen. Though his son Joseph headed what is now the Community of Christ.
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