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Author Topic: If I think you're wrong, should I tell you?
Tresopax
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I think this is a pretty common situation: You know someone who has important beliefs that you think are mistaken. In fact, you think that they are really hurting themselves if they continue to hold those beliefs. Maybe you think their religious beliefs will damn them. Maybe you think their beliefs on right or wrong will lead them to do something terribly unethical. Maybe you just think their beliefs on how to act are leading them down the wrong paths in life. What do you do?

Do you try to convince them they are wrong in what they believe? It seems like this would be a good thing to do if you care about them. After all, how can you knowingly let someone you care about (or even someone you don't care about) make a mistake without telling them?

But at the same time, people get mad when you tell them they are wrong, especially if you tell them they are wrong in their religious, policial, or ethical beliefs. They call you self-righteous or arrogant. Or they may think you are prying into their business. So, should you not try to change their minds, and let them do as they wish, even if you know they are making a terrible mistake?

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Pat
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How do you know that your point of view is correct? Is there a way to be absolutely sure?
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mackillian
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Tres, you tell us we're wrong all the time. [Wink]
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Tresopax
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Well, I didn't ask whether I do, Mack, cause everyone knows that I do! [Smile] The question is, SHOULD I? Or should you for that matter?

quote:
How do you know that your point of view is correct? Is there a way to be absolutely sure?
The answer, I think, is no, there is no way to be sure. Does that mean you shouldn't try to change your friend's views?

[ September 17, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]

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Pat
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It does if there is a way to be in posession of absolute truth.
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mackillian
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Not unless you want my foot up your...

Just kidding. The door was just so OPEN for that. [Wink]

I think it's arrogant when you declare another person's beliefs absolutely wrong. Because, how are YOU so absolutely sure? Expressing your thoughts and opinions on the matter is perfectly fine. Maybe it's the tone that differs, really. I don't mind listening when you're open and level. When you're a little snot, my kicking leg gets twitchy.

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blacwolve
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I agree with mack, it depends on how you say it.
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katharina
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I truly, truly (although I occasionally have a hard time living according to this) believe that you do not have the right (outside the legal system and immediate danger) to chastise anyone whom you do not love.

If you don't care about them, it is none of your business. Also, not very effective.

The right depends entirely on the motive. You may do so, unless they have specifically requested it, ONLY if you love them enough to know them well, point out a way they might be happier, and to love them still after they flip you off and do whatever they want anyway.

[ September 18, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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Cactus Jack
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I really think you're off the mark on this one.

All of you.

And everybody who posts after me, too.

And everybody who doesn't post.

You're all just . . . wrong.

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Papa Moose
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Yeah, I agree with Cactus Jack on this one.
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Scott R
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I (try to) never tell anyone they're wrong unless I am also willing to let them prove themselves right.
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katharina
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Oh... I like that.
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aspectre
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Nope, ya should just reexamine why you wrongly think that I am wwroong
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pooka
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According to my Therapy board game, people are less likely to render help if there are other people around. So if, as you seem to be saying, it is a matter of physical or spiritual safety that someone be corrected, I'm going to leave it to the most capable person. That will almost always be someone other than me. Until my kids get older.
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pooka
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Take this post by farmgirl, for example: screechowl . I think she's being a little strange, but I don't know all the circumstances. Or this one by S.S... Oh, wait, I get it. Storm Saxon wants us to call him Supply Side from now on, is that it? Anyway, I read the comic, it was mildly "sacrilicious" as promised, but , well, I can't find the link, but if you don't reply does it mean you don't care or you don't know if you care?
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Dan_raven
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This is a toughie.

A man stands on the train tracks and a train is coming. Do you tell him to move or would that just lead to an argument and cost you a friend?

You know the train is coming, so you should warn him.

A man is going to Hell according to your beliefs. Do you tell him to change or would that just lead to an argument and cost you a friend?

Some would argue that you Think he is going to hell. You are not as sure of it as you were with the man on the train tracks and the oncoming train.

This then becomes a question of belief. Either you know he is going to hell, and its your duty to try and save him, or you think he may go to hell, and you don't really believe deeply enough?

So, yes, you should tell a friend when you disagree, and why.

HOWEVER!!!!

How you tell your friend, and the results of that conversation may not be what you think they will be.

You can tell me to join your church because you KNOW if I don't I will go to hell. I would appreciate your concern (many won't), but I won't change. What I believe and what I know are different.

Perhaps I know the train will change tracks, or stop before it gets to me.

I know that I am not going to hell as strongly as you know that I am.

Once warned of my peril it is not your duty to force me to change, or expect me to change. Your duty is to accept me as I am or go elsewhere, as it is my duty to accept you, with your beliefs that I may disagree with, or to go elsewhere.

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Pod
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I think, that it is important to point out the ramifications of my perspective from the other persons perspective. This typically is fine, particularly over pragmatic issues. Pointing out specifically what i think should be different tends to illustrate the fact that i disagree with them. They're entitled to their perspective, but i'm going to make them aware of my perspective too.

And in that way, i prefer simply to point out that i have a different pov. Its not a matter of rightness or wrongness.

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Túrin
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Since people mentioned religion:

Ezekiel 3:17-19

Son of man, I have made you a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, you will surely die; and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man will die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turns not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

Again, when a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you have delivered your soul.

If people try to convince me that I'm wrong, I am grateful, whether I agree with them or not, provided their motive is to actually help me, not show me up or win admiration for themselves for being smarter or more competent, or because they feel better about themselves by proving others wrong.

Sadly, I think a lot of people have emotional issues with themselves that cause them to *project* negative motivations onto people *genuinely* trying to be kind and helpful.

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Tresopax
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quote:
I truly, truly (although I occasionally have a hard time living according to this) believe that you do not have the right (outside the legal system and immediate danger) to chastise anyone whom you do not love.

If you don't care about them, it is none of your business. Also, not very effective.

The right depends entirely on the motive. You may do so, unless they have specifically requested it, ONLY if you love them enough to know them well, point out a way they might be happier, and to love them still after they flip you off and do whatever they want anyway.

Well, I'd say my opinion on the matter falls in line with these ideas, but in a very different way. I agree that it depends on the motive, and I think that's what people were really getting at when they said it depends on the way you say it. If you argue in a way that makes it sound like your motive is simply to show why you are better than someone else, people will assume you have that motive, and fault you for it. The only motives that you should have when arguing you view are (1) you care about the other person and want to help them, or (2) you care about learning the truth and want to hear the other person's counterargument to your view.

The thing I really disagree with katharina on, though, is that she seem to imply that there are only a few people that we care about - and that only they can be told they are wrong. I disagree. You should care about everyone. Maybe you don't, but I think you should, to some degree. For instance, if you saw another person about to die, you should help them, whether they're a loved one or a stranger. Hence, you should care.

So, in that way, I think you have a moral responsibility to try and help people you think are mistaken. And at the same time, because of this, I think we should be understanding when others do tell us we are wrong. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement, if we don't allow anger to come into play too much. After all, there is no real cost to having someone tell you you are wrong - you can always, and will most often, simply ignore them.

I made this thread because I think this is a big problem today, in both cases. On the one hand, too many people get angry when others try to 'correct' them. And on the other hand, too many people are unwilling to try and correct mistaken views when they come across them, whether because they don't want to provoke anger or because they just don't care. The result, I think, is a relativistic and PC society, where bad ideas continue to circulate because everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone believes this means they should not have to correct theirs. More importantly, the result is an angry and misunderstanding society, the sort most online forums seem to become, where seemingly productive discussions are inevitably derailed when opinions conflict and flame wars ensue. The only reasonable answer that I see is to get everyone to understand the importance of other people telling them they are wrong, and the correct motivations for doing so. Otherwise, I don't think we'll ever get anywhere except into a fight.

[ September 29, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Tresopax ]

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