posted
What does it mean to be sane and normal? I go through this contanstly, being torn between doubting my sanity and accepting my eccentricity. You may recall that I stated in a topic that I have gone mildly psychic. Some strange things have happened to me this year. I can't even talk about most of them. It has also been established that I have a rare, yet harmless mental condition known as synesthesia which allows me to see colours in music, ect. Could this be possible? These strange senses. Feeling people's emotions from thousands of miles away. So many odd things that I rarely talk about because I don't want people to consider me psycotic. Is it possible that some people have these extreme sort of senses? Can we really understand more of the potential of the human mind by looking at the wildcards of the world, people with "disorders" such as autism and schitzophrenia? Or am I simply in need of psychiatric help despite the fact that I don't feel like i am and since my wild sort of thinking makes me more creative and helps me to find happiness in the most random of things.
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posted
Schizophrenia is a biological brain disorder. As its basis, it's a formal thought disorder--the thoughts stop connecting, resulting in symptoms like paranoia, aggression, hallucinations, delusions, catatonia, flat affect, etc. When you talk insanity, mostly you're talking the psychosis of schizophrenia, one of the most devastating of the mental illnesses.
With the other mental illnesses, unless they become psychotic ( as can happen with major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder), folks aren't exactly "insane." Meaning, they don't have a formal thought disorder or psychosis. Most times, a mental illness (when not psychotic) does not need to be treated unless the person who has the illness feels that it impedes his or her way of life. Then the illness needs to be treated.
Even with my schizophrenic client, I've never thought any of my clients insane. They were getting treatment, not showing any signs of psychosis or nearing a psychotic break. Sure, they had symptoms of their illnesses, but nothing that could be dealt with.
Folks are much more sane than they might appear to be.
posted
I would argue insanity implies a disconnect between reality and representation of reality of the mind, regardless of whatever reason is causing it. In a state of sanity, your mind represents external reality in an accurate manner. If you believe you are seeing a dog, your probably are seeing a dog, if you are sane. Insanity is the collapse of this correlation.
When someone says "you're insane!" what they mean is you don't have a grasp of reality, for whatever reason.
The problem is that nobody knows for sure what the true, accurate nature of external reality is. If 1000 people see a dog there and one does not, they may say that one person is insane. But who's to say it's not the 1000 who are insane and the one person is the only one with a truly accurate mental picture. So, the truth is, we can't truly say who is insane and who isn't. We just guess, based on the assumption that most people are sane.
As for your case, the question I think is whether or not your mental condition effects your ability to see reality accurately. Does it prevent you from seeing things as they actually are? It sounds like it allows you to experience certain things in ways a normal person wouldn't experience them, but at the same time, it doesn't sound like that prevents you from accurately recognizing what sensation is what. When you see colors in music, you still recognize it as music, right? If so, I'd say you definitely aren't insane.
As for seeking help, that really has nothing to do with definitions. You need help if you have a problem. You have a problem if something is harming your life. If nothing is, my best guess would be you probably don't need help.
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quote:We can figure out if someone is insane. It's fairly easy. What we CAN'T do, is figure out ALL the insane people.
Oh, you've been listening to science too much.
The fact is, we can't determine if someone is insane for sure because sane people could potentially appear insane to the insane. Hence, if we were insane, we would be misaken about who was insane. And we can't know for sure we aren't all insane, as easy as it is to say we just aren't.
It's like the Descartes' evil demon thing.
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posted
Tres, the problem with your ideology is that it's just that--ideology.
In order to function in reality, we have to pretend that we can figure out stuff to a certain extent, until proven wrong.
And with some things, we CAN see in brain scans where things aren't quite connecting, where there's less activity, when some parts have grown overlarge.
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posted
Would you consider me temporarily insane last night?
I don't really think so, because I knew that the hallucinations weren't real. I knew that the laptop and the TV were not playing the music, even if my senses were telling me otherwise.
I wonder though if it was voices I was hearing instead of music whether I would be able to make that distinction. Before last night I would say probably not, assuming that whatever the voices were, they would not be convincing.
I'm not so sure now. One thing I got out of the experience is a new respect for the human subconscious. How it was able to reproduce the music so perfectly in a way that even fooled me I do not know. I think perhaps voices and conversation produced from the same source could probably convince me of a lot of things, maybe that it was God talking to me or a spirit or something. Scary thought that.
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posted
No. You weren't insane last night. The large defining property of insanity, when used in mental health (oddly, insanity isn't any sort of diagnosis in mental health, it's a legal term), talks about formal thought disorder.
Xav, as whacked out as you got last night, you were still able to think rationally, reach out to people, to sort real from unreal, though difficult.
quote:In order to function in reality, we have to pretend that we can figure out stuff to a certain extent, until proven wrong.
And with some things, we CAN see in brain scans where things aren't quite connecting, where there's less activity, when some parts have grown overlarge.
Yes, but it's just as practical to say we think that means this person is insane as it would be to say we know they're insane. Believing we are more certain than we actually can be is not a requirement for functioning in real life.
posted
Maybe so, but you have to admit that putting disclaimers on everything gets awfully cumbersome after awhile.
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posted
Tres, I know that lack of internal consistency is one way to distinguish sane from insane states. Another is persistence over time. A third way is the success or lack of success of the state as it plays out in real life.
For instance, my perception of the existence of God has internal consistency, it fits in well with all my other observations, and it has persisted over time now for six or seven years. As it's played out in real life it's helped me make an enormous step forward in my ability to successfully negotiate the exigencies of being alive. Therefore if it's a hallucination, then it's at least as convincing to me as this other hallucination we call the world, so I do believe it represents reality, even if I can see that my understanding of it is still rather limited and provisional.
[ October 05, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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posted
I always was interested in the link between creativity and insanity. I have always thought that to be creative was to be able to distance oneself from reality, and that insanity was simply the next step of being stuck in unreality.
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posted
There is a definite correlation between creativity (especially at the genuis level) and insanity. There has been lots of speculation, research and books written on this in the last ten years. Many of the most influential scientists,mathematicians and artists have been insane or borderline insane, or suffered from mental disorders, particularly schizophrenia and bipolar or manic/depressive disorder.
I'll just mention 3 of the most famous, there are plenty of others including musicians. Newton, who most mathematicians would say was one of the three most influential mathematicians in human history, believed in some truly bizarre idea and there has been much speculation that he was schizoprenic. Cantor, the founder of modern infinite set theory and also incredibly influential, is suspected of bipolar disorder. Ironically, one writer suggested it made him uniquely capable of reinventing mathematics with radical changes in its foundations, as a manic state is known to increase creativity (sometimes dramatically) whereas in his depressive state he could edit his work and answer his (numerous) critics. Van Gogh is widely thought to have been schizophrenic, yet his paintings have set the record for most expensive art. As Annie beat me in trivia with. It was Irises but I picked Starry Night, my favorite work by him. But I knew it was Irises, Annie, just not in time! *shakes fist* Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I have an odd way of viewing reality. One of the happiest thoughts I've ever had was about atoms, solid ones nad the spaces between them. Even solid walls are not so solid. The view of reality shifts and yet at the same time has a steady fundation. If I can EVER explain it I could write an essay about it, or at least a landmark post or something. Quatum physics comes to mind. In an intelligent and unique graphic novel (because something of that caliber cannot be considered a mere comic book *snooty expression*) called Kabuki while running from mortal peril several of the characters discussed the principles of quantum physics and Zen Buddhism. Maybe it's possible to have more control over solid reality then you think. but it's annoying as all hell to have this listed as a sympton of a mental disorder! But, in a way, as long as it does not interfere with real life, such a concept can be benificial for pushing me forward, just as Ana Kata's religious principles push her forward and structure her life. Then there is a quote from a story in Sandman (yet another graphic novel) in which Delirium says of Norton I (i am such a nerd ) "His madness keeps him sane." Sometimes I think the only thing that keeps me sane, that keeps me from crashing is half-madness. I feel like I'm stuck with the weight of the world on my shoulders most of the time. If people are in pain inside, I often get stuck feeling it and wanting to do something about it. But then there are those moments of blind extacy and the joy and rapture I get from music, and these things keep me grounded and able to go forward.
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posted
Syn, I think that the thought you had re: atoms and the space between them indicating that the solid is not as solid as presumed is an entirely sane theory. *shrug* I've had that thought often, and I know that *I'm* not insane really, I have the certificate right here! *points at Universal Life Church certificate of ministership*
All joking aside, I think that a lot of perceived insanity is just a result of a very active brain. The fact that you can think about the spaces between atoms (defying 'solidity') just means that you are a bit of a geek. A far cry from insane. *smile* I saw a unicorn once. Sure, it was just a unicorn-shaped stack of hay, but it *could* have been a unicorn! Sometimes I hear someone call my name in a perfectly quiet house. It's an audio illusion.
Bah. Pay attention to what mackillian says, she's smarter than me (about this subject, anyway!).
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Morbo mentioned the correlational connection between genius and insanity--that often our most creative and intelligent people are schizophrenic or bipolar.
Are those two disorders insanity?
Certainly, moments of them can be, whenever a person suffering from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder have a psychotic break. But having the conditions themselves is not insanity.
Where bipolar disorder is concerned, usually the most productive state is not mania, but hypomania. Just short of full-blown, completely out of control mania, hypomania is the flowing of a thousand ideas and doing a hundred different things, with a chance of completing one or two of them. With mania, you won't finish anything.
But this connection brings up a sticking point. Do we romanticize the connection between genius and insanity? That those who are the most brilliant are also the most mentally unstable? Do people covet that? The thought that, oh, I'm mentally ill, but at least I'm smart, creative, intelligent, etc.?
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posted
Insanity is a vague term that people define differently.
I don't think people with schizoprenia or bipolar disorder are a priori insane or automatically insane. But they are more at risk of going insane. I tried to define insanity just now and couldn't, it can be a slippery concept. But I know insane behavior when I see it. Certainly Van Gogh was insane enough to cut off part of his ear and mail it to a prostitute, and to kill himself. I thought it was generally agreed he had schizophrenia, but then I saw this:
quote: Today it is believed that probably a combination of epilepsy and poor diet and living conditions affected him.
posted
"Do we romanticize the connection between genius and insanity? " Yes, many do. I do not, far from it.
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posted
There IS a book that can probably help you define sanity...it's called the DSM IV...it's almost like there's a whole bunch of people trained to treat mental illnesses and disorders...go figure!
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posted
The DSMIV has flaws. I've read (cannot confirm) that normal human mind-sets can be viewed as pathological according to it. It also has cultural biases and "trendy" diseases that have not reached scientific consensus. Maybe Mac or other pros could comment on the DSM IV
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posted
I recently read a book called Touched with Fire - I can't remember who wrote it but the author is a Ph.D. who is clinically bi-polar. She researched the family history and course of life of dozens of visual and literary artists and the book is basically her analysis of the correlation between their creative genius and their mental illness. She makes a very thorough and clear case for creativity being stimulated by mental illness, without romanticizing it at all. You might get a lot out of it, Syn, even if you aren't clinically mentally ill it offers some interesting points about what it means to be rational vs. irrational
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posted
There is gender Identity disorder to consider. A person would think I have that as I never wear dresses or makeup and I have more male traits than female traits. Really I toy with the notion that phycology is bunk one one level, because the mind is too complex and we don't understand it completely just yet. We have people with remarkable talents that are not normal by society's definition of normal, whatever that means. Is it a bad thing to either be unable to speak, or to not want to speak but to still be able to play whole piano sonatas? I think we out to start looking at the wildcards of society in terms of what the mind can do and to stop thinking in terms of average and normal especially when people like me have no idea what that means.
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quote:There IS a book that can probably help you define sanity...it's called the DSM IV...it's almost like there's a whole bunch of people trained to treat mental illnesses and disorders...go figure!
*thwap* The DSM-IV does not define insanity. I said that before--in mental health, insanity is not a diagnosis.
quote:The DSMIV has flaws
It does. It's continually being revised. It's a diagnostic tool that allows mental health practitioners match a set of symptoms to a diagnosis in order to provide treatment. It is not the be-all and end-all of what might be going on with a person.
quote:I recently read a book called Touched with Fire
The author is Kay Redfield Jamison. She is a psychologist with Johns Hopkins University. She's also written An Unquiet Mind, a personal memoir about her own struggle with bipolar disorder. Another good book.
quote:There is gender Identity disorder to consider. A person would think I have that as I never wear dresses or makeup and I have more male traits than female traits.
From the DSM-IV ( ): Diagnostic Criteria for Gender Identity Disorder
A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex).
In children, the disturbance is manifested by for (or more) of the following: 1. repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex. 2. In boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypically masculine clothing. 3. strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex. 4. intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex. 5. strong preference for playmates of the other sex.
In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to love or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.
B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.
In children, the disturbance is manifested by any of the followings: in boys, assertion that his penis or testes are disgusting or will disappear or assertion that it would be better not to have a penis, or aversion toward rough and tumble play and rejection of male stereotypical toys, games and activities; in girls, rejection of uriating in a sitting position, assertion that she will grow a penis, or assertion that she does not want to grow breasts or menstruate, or marked aversion towards normative female clothing.
In adolscents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.
C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition (hermaphrodite).
D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
(end)
Now, the main factor there is the desire to be the other sex. Not just a passing desire, but a pervasive desire. Now, especially with the children, you can have all the other symptoms. Those kids are called tomboys (girls) or tomgirls (boys). However, if you ask them, the majority doesn't want to BE the other sex. They just like to play that way. *shrug*
Most importantly, as D states, it isn't a disorder unless it causes clinically significant distress.
So Syn, unless someone was some sort of crackpot, you wouldn't be diagnosed with gender identity disorder based on your manner of dress, not wanting to wear makeup, and the exhibition of typically male traits.
What do you consider typically male traits that you exhibit?
quote:I toy with the notion that phycology is bunk one one level, because the mind is too complex and we don't understand it completely just yet.
We don't know and understand the body completely just yet, but most folks don't knock of the medical community entirely as bunk. We continued to expand our knowledge of the mind and its functions. We take what we know and help treat the disorders that present themselves. At the moment, there are no cures for mental illnesses, only treatments. One day, we hope to have a cure, and what a wonderful day that will be. I also used to think psychology was bunk until I got into it and began studying it, but ONLY after I saw a significant difference in myself from therapy. I resisted medication. I still do. I resisted therapy. I still do, and I AM a bachelor's level therapist and am attending grad school to become a licensed clinical social worker.
It's sorta like, you have a band-aid. You've never seen one before, you're not sure how to use it. Someone has a wound. You know that somehow, the bandaid will help. You aren't sure how, exactly, or even how to apply the band aid. But you try it anyway, instead of doing nothing and letting the person suffer.
quote:Is it a bad thing to either be unable to speak, or to not want to speak but to still be able to play whole piano sonatas?
I think here you refer to autism, yes? Autism is a spectrum disorder, ranging from the mildly afflicted to the severely afflicted. Those that posess savant talents are very rare. The greatest disability of autism is the inability to read people's faces for emotions and cues. It's a type of blindness. You never, ever can come up with a clue or indication of what I'm thinking or feeling. You're mind-blind. Is this bad? Well, no, not BAD. But it isn't good, either. You wouldn't trade your ability to interact socially to be able to play a fantastic sonata, but never be able to feel the emotions from your audience. It's an empty performance.
quote:I think we out to start looking at the wildcards of society in terms of what the mind can do and to stop thinking in terms of average and normal especially when people like me have no idea what that means.
It isn't as if the mental health community is out prowling the streets looking for crazy folks. If we were, there'd be a lot less homeless schizophrenics and bipolars who do not receive treatment. As said with the diagnostic criteria from the DSM-IV, and in clinical training, a person is not possessive of a disorder unless The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.. The person must either present themselves for treatment, or be brought in involuntarily by concerned family, friends, co-workers, or the police.
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really, I have the certificate right here! *points at Universal Life Church certificate of ministership*
