posted
The illusion of the "family" I grew up with is gone. My family is also physically removed from my life--I haven't heard from them in months. They honestly don't give a crap. And this is after years of work, of opening up and getting kicked in the teeth.
And I certainly won't have a family of my own.
I don't know if it's even family, but more parents. I'm not sure.
But what I want deep in my heart, what I cry about in the black of night, I can never have.
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posted
Just listen. And don't be so darn quick to dispute. Think about it.
1. God's idea of good is not always our idea of good. For him, good things are things that make you closer to him, or more faithful. Money doesn't always do this. In my experience, the only Christians who had more money than they needed were the ones who kept giving it away to people who actually needed it.
2. God knows what we need. I realize that I'm blessed with two kids that are hardly ever disobedient. But I really think that they are that way because God knows that my anger is barely controllable, and that I struggle everyday to be gentle with my kids, even though they deserve nothing less. I fully expect that as I get better control of my anger, my kids will begin to test me more often. He could test me here, but he knows that if I fail, I'm not the only one who will suffer.
Also, God also knows that I'm horrible with money. Therefore, I just make enough to barely cover the bills. Why? Although I'm obedient, if I received more money, he knows I would blow it. Also, the constant concern about how my next bill will be paid leads me to wait for God and trust that he'll care for me.
Here's the clincher.
IF HE DOESN'T help me pay my next bill, it's because he has some other plan that goes down another road. I will be tested and hopefully come out stronger in my faith as a result. So maybe I go to jail? Then I should witness to the people in jail. Get it? THAT'S A BLESSING! The reason it doesn't seem like one to you is because you do not think like God. No one does. But the stronger a Christian you become, the more you begin to understand him.
The biggest blessing I receive everyday is knowing that whatever happens, God is in control of the situation. And that is a privilege reserved for those who follow him. He does intervene in the lives of non-Christians at times, but only to fulfill some grand purpose. Basically, if you aren't obeying him, you are on your own. Your trials are just trials. Your "blessings" are just whatever thing happens to befall.
Just curious, would you consider finding a wallet full of cash a blessing, if the amount in the wallet just covered your bills?
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If you don't permit some objective measurement of "quality of life," this whole "being helped by God" discussion is kind of pointless, don't you think?
Let's just agree that people who are happy, healthy, well-liked, wealthy, fertile, intelligent, generous, charismatic, and generally free from terrible misfortune lead "better" lives than those who are unhappy, unhealthy, disliked, poor, infertile, unintelligent, grasping, dull, and cursed, shall we?
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"So maybe I go to jail? Then I should witness to the people in jail. Get it? THAT'S A BLESSING! The reason it doesn't seem like one to you is because you do not think like God."
No. Not to put too fine an edge on it, the reason it doesn't seem like one to me is because I'm not wacky.
By the same logic, shattering your pelvis and being hospitalized for months is a blessing because you can witness to the nurses. Being stalked by a creepy, drooling guy with a blood-stained chainsaw is a blessing because he clearly needs to hear the Word. Falling into a gorge and being eaten by wolves is a blessing, because you would have gone home and sinned with your boyfriend if you had survived.
There are very few misfortunes that cannot be reworked into "blessings" under this system.
And yes, I recognize that this kind of optimism is a wonderful, beautiful thing; in fact, it's exactly one of the benefits of belief. But a God that treats the universe like a giant Rube Goldberg device -- containing pawns to be maimed and jailed for some ridiculously complicated "higher purpose" that He refuses to explain to anyone -- is, in my opinion, dangerous and untrustworthy. Why would you voluntarily worship such a being?
quote:God knows what we need. I realize that I'm blessed with two kids that are hardly ever disobedient. But I really think that they are that way because God knows that my anger is barely controllable, and that I struggle everyday to be gentle with my kids, even though they deserve nothing less.
Which completely explains why God gave my father obedience children because of his quick and violent temper, but said oldest child got the crap beat out of her.
quote:would you consider finding a wallet full of cash a blessing, if the amount in the wallet just covered your bills?
Neither. That wallet is someone else's and needs to return to its owner.
quote:God said that he is a father to the fatherless.
Yes, I do know that. I'd like a father I could hug and one that would hug back instead of hit.
And I know it was a suggestion. The wife was suggesting that it was all Job had left to do.
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posted
So I get the punishment for my father's disobedience?
Sure, we have free will. Sure, that can result in the evil done by man in the world.
Sure, the original disobedience happened in the garden and it's all downhill from there.
But really. I believe in God. I do what he sets out before me. I know I'm not supposed to expect anything in return, God is just worthy of that worship. I know that when we pray, the answer might be no, or an answer that we don't realize is best for us.
But either we have free will or we don't. If we have free will, we choose to worship God because he is worthy of it. God can see the future in store for us, but he cannot change it, because that would interfere with free will.
Or we do not have free will, and God has it all worked out, and nothing we do will change it, and it's all for our own good.
You know, my father used to tell me the same thing. It was for my own good.
I don't see how that can be true, or maybe, I don't WANT that to be true, because it would be horrible.
And if God is my Father, he's been an absentee parent.
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posted
"I just used it to demonstrate to Tom that somethings look like blessings, but they are really trials."
The next time you have the urge to tell someone they've been blessed by God, or announce that YOU'VE been blessed in some way, stop for a moment and consider that what you're considering a blessing might in fact be a trial. Or vice versa:
"God has given me four lovely, obedient children, and my cancer is in remission. What did I do to deserve this tribulation?"
"Bill, as you're going through the Want Ads, be sure to thank God for destroying the steel industry."
Trials can be blessings in disguise, and blessings can be trials. But I'm suspicious of how conveniently people tend to forget this in practice -- and how effective any single trial or blessing can be in any case if this is generally true.
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quote: The next time you have the urge to tell someone they've been blessed by God, or announce that YOU'VE been blessed in some way, stop for a moment and consider that what you're considering a blessing might in fact be a trial. Or vice versa:
Tom, YOU were the one that had all the questions about blessings and whatnot. I did the best I could to describe to you how I really felt. I realize that the only reason you're asking the questions may be not because you are really curious, but because you just want me to rethink how I think. But in this statement, you have suggested that I do something that I'm already doing. Don't you get that this is exactly what I've been trying to explain? Everytime something comes my way that seems like a trial, I try to see how it might really be a blessing. When I'm "blessed" with something that seems super great, I try to see what I can learn from it, or determine if it even really came from God at all.
How could you have read what I wrote and not learn something about the way I think? You may have been reading it, but I don't think you were attempting to comprehend, just quarrel. You seem so smart, yet you didn't even try to know me.
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posted
The problem, Maureen, is that this is all psychology. There's nothing here that suggests that ANYTHING happens to you because God wills it.
What you've said amounts to this: when bad things happen, I try to remember that God intends good for me -- and when good things happen, I thank God for them. And when ANYTHING happens, I try to figure out what God wants me to learn from it.
Now, this is a perfect description of a healthy faith. This is also a pretty decent recipe for happiness. On the other hand, going back to the original topic of this thread, there's not a lot here that constitutes "being helped" by God -- since, by this logic, everything that happens to everyone in the world constitutes "being helped" by God.
Again, that's a perfectly consistent approach, and a wonderfully optimistic one. But in the context of the original question, it's like telling somebody looking for a bathroom that bathrooms exist.
posted
I guess the big question, Maureen, at least for me, is this:
Everything you've told us about being helped by God is a matter of optimistic outlook. If you were a basically cheerful and optimistic unbeliever, what would be different in your life?
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quote:Scott argues that he knows God exists because he has wonderful children.
No, Tom, you misunderstand me. If you read down a bit, you'll see the point of my post:
quote: All of those things I may loose, one way or the other.
What does God give us, external to ourselves, that cannot be removed?
The answer that came to me was peace through obedience. I obey because God has taught me. . .
I do not believe in God because I have been blessed. I believe in God because I have spoken to Him and He has spoken back.
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posted
Incidentally, and as a flippant side note- If everyone would just stop accusing God of niceness, and then being angry at Him when He isn't nice, things would be a lot. . . nicer.
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Exactly, mac. That's why I'm agnostic (well one of the reasons). No one has ever reconciled the omni-God and the existence of evil.
I have always had a two-way non-judgmental policy about faith. I would never, ever tell a person who does have faith in the existence of the omni-God that he or she is wrong. Likewise, I don't want any of them to tell me that I'm wrong for not believing. Live and let believe. Or not believe.
Okay, I can't resist adding one little thing. This thread reminded me of a quote from Fiddler on the Roof, of all places.
quote:Dear God, I know, I know...we're the chosen people. But once in a while, can't you choose somebody else!
posted
I think that the answer about what God does for us is perhaps simpler than it seems. First a couple of scriptures:
quote: And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God.
quote:And by so doing, the Lord God prepareth the way that the residue of men may have faith in Christ, that the Holy Ghost may have place in their hearts, according to the power thereof; and after this manner bringeth to pass the Father, the covenants which he hath made unto the children of men.
For Mormons at least it is pretty clear: God does not act in the lives of men unless men initiate the action through an exercise of faith. In fact, the way that God enacts any part of his plans on earth is through the faith of those who live here.
So the question then is: What is faith? I think that the definition is a bit difficult to pin down. I think that faith is the impetus for action and that it must be based on true principles.
Any action which a person performs first requires faith that it may be performed and second requires a basis in true principles. When I turn on a light it is because I believe and hope that the light will come on. However, faith is not only hope or belief for if not for the physical laws underlying the use of electricity all of my hope and belief would be meaningless and it would hence not be faith.
To me all actions which we may perform all rely on the same principle of faith. The only difference between "miracles" and cotidian actions such as turning on a light is the understanding of the principles involved.
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posted
I will start this by saying I am an atheist, with a catholic upbringing.
If God is all powerful, why does Jesus mean anything to him or us? I have always heard that Jesus was God's *ONLY* son. Now if he were all powerful, how could he have ONLY ONE of anything? Also, it is often said that without Jesus, no one could get into heaven, that he takes our sins and ... does something with them. Why is this? Because God chose it to be so. All of the reasons we are given to love god, require one to believe that he is not all powerful.
Then we can get into the un-conditional love statement. I am not sure if that is just a catholic thing or what, but if his love were truly unconditional, there would be no hell.
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this is sort of off topic, but there was a post about this earlier and nobody picked up on it. i find the adam and eve - free will explanation put fourth by christianity to be incredibly flawwed in that it contradicts the idea of god as the creator.
here's the problem, its generally assumed that we were created with the ability to choose for ourselves between good and evil, and as such we are held accountable for our actions, justifying being damned to hell for eternity if we choose to deny god (oversimplified i know). the question raised earlier was why did god create a world with evil and unhappiness in it, and the typical christian response to that question is that it is humanity which has created this unhappiness; people who do not live by god's laws create misery and pain for the rest of the world, but god is innocent and only wants us to love each other.
this is a wonderful little set up for motivating people to behave according to a given set of ethics; you tell them that they are responsible for their actions and god wants them to behave in a particular way, but this whole thing is based on a slight oversight; god supposedly created us. what this means, is that if humans have a tendancy to do bad things, if humans have the desire to sin, that tendancy was also created by god. if god created everything, he is responsible for everything, he intended everything. i'm not arguing predetermination here (although it could be developed from the same argument), but rather that in a universe which has been created by a single being external to that being, you can't really assign responsibility to anyone in that universe; they are what they were created to be.
in order for free will to truly exist, god cannot be omnipotent. i'm not arguing that our ability to choose infringes on god's power; this argument can be easily refuted by saying that god has simply chosen not to control but still has the ability, rather i'm pointing out that free will requires the existence of good and evil outside of god himself, in other words it requires god to be limited by the definition of good and evil. to say that we have free will is basically to say that we have an inherent ability to understand what is right and wrong, and we can choose between those two. if god created the definition of good and evil and also created us, then in a deterministic universe he must be held responsible for our actions (and in an indeterministic universe god cannot be said to be omnipotent). the only way to truly reconcile free will is to state the god is bound by what is right an wrong, and he created us with the ability to understand this.
i've always considered the definition of good an evil to be a facinating subject, if we assume that god created everything, and that god decides what's right and wrong, then to state that god is good and virtuous and perfect doesn't really have any meaning, you're just saying that god is god. morality is one of those things that when you start dissecting it theoretically tends to fall apart in your hands. it's quite simple to observe why it's nice that people have morals, but it's incredibly difficult to rigorously justify having them.
I do understand. I spent a great deal of the last five years wondering what I'd done that the Lord had forgotten me. I vascillated between thinking I was being tortured or else thinking I was just... forgotten. There was one decision that I made where I did exactly what I wanted, and I actively ignored the dread feeling that I was doing something not morally wrong, but the wrong decision for my life. I did it anyway. Did it invalidate all the other blessings for my life? It sure as heck seemed (seems) like it.
Mack, I'm more or less an orphan as well. My mother really is gone, and my dad has had the fortune to marry socially-skilled, compassionate women who take of the emotional and familial needs of the their children, which means he's never had to do it. However, the current arrangement doesn't cover me, and my dad's role has always been the provide-and-show-up-for-award-shows type, and that works for him. He doesn't want to change. The provide thing doesn't apply, and the award shows aren't exactly thick on the ground. I'm an orphan.
I don't think the Lord did that to me. I think it's just life. It's just part of this crappy life, and there's no promises made that anything will be great. Any blessing I have is gravy.
For me, I believe because of many things, but most importantly because of the scriptures. I can tell the difference in me when I read and follow them, and I can feel the peace inside. I've had a few occasions where my heart has been twisted and choatic until I've had a blessing, and then it was calmed. I've had a few of the tithing-type miracles Tom was talking about, but mostly... mostly it's because of peace and prayers answered and the effects of reading the Book of Mormon.
posted
What I've realized thus far is this: the less I go to church, the less I read any scripture, the more peaceful and straightened out my life gets.
So what do I do about that? Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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"What isn't fair to you doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, Tom."
You know, re-reading this thread, this line -- which I overlooked before -- kind of stood out for me.
I want to know why it DOESN'T matter. Why should anyone be expected to follow a being who does not believe that fairness to individuals is worthy of consideration?
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It depends what you mean by 'benevolent.' I think God is GOOD. I don't think He's necessarily Nice.
This brings to mind a conversation from 'The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.' The Pevensies are at the beavers' house, and have just been told that they'll have to go meet Aslan. Susan asks whether or not Aslan is safe, and Mr. Beaver replies, a little haughtily, that no, he is not.
"He's a wild lion, you understand."
I think that's how Mr. Beaver puts it.
I think God requires us to go through terrible, awful, difficult things. He is not nice, or safe. But I've found that as terribly difficult as life can be, obedience to God's commandments brings peace no matter what straits I'm placed in.
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posted
"Susan asks whether or not Aslan is safe, and Mr. Beaver replies, a little haughtily, that no, he is not. 'He's a wild lion, you understand.'"
This is one of the things I always felt kind of disappointed about in the Narnia books. Everyone always says Aslan is "wild," but -- unlike the Christian God -- he's pretty consistent in his behavior, only frightening until you get to know him, and (at least for the major characters) behaves remarkably like a "nice" lion.
Admittedly, he DOESN'T turn up on behalf of the minor characters -- red shirts are allowed to die all the time -- but he's hardly the dangerous and unpredictable "wild lion" that you might expect from all the warnings.
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Pat, all headbanging aside, why shouldn't people judge God based on perceived fairness? Surely He doesn't need the PR help; He's responsible for His own image.
Heck, by what other yardstick is it even POSSIBLE to judge God? And if we can't judge God, why should we even try to have a relationship with such an inscrutable and unknowable entity?
quote: he's pretty consistent in his behavior, only frightening until you get to know him, and (at least for the major characters) behaves remarkably like a "nice" lion.
You said it, not me.
(Psst-- you may want to re-read the beginning of Prince Caspian, Tom. Where Aslan is not nice at all to the Pevensies.)
[ October 13, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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posted
"you may want to re-read the beginning of Prince Caspian, Tom. Where Aslan is not nice at all to the Pevensies"
Except that Aslan IS pretty nice to them, when you think about it; he's puckish in a Dobby of Harry Potter sense, not nasty in a smiting-the-heathens sense. I'm sure that part of it has to do with the children's book nature of the allegory, but still....
And yes, I'd imagine that the Christian God would like to PRETEND that He's only dangerous until you get to know him, but I'm pretty sure that Christians are just as statistically likely as anyone else to die of cancer and plane crashes.
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quote: Pat, all headbanging aside, why shouldn't people judge God based on perceived fairness? Surely He doesn't need the PR help; He's responsible for His own image. Heck, by what other yardstick is it even POSSIBLE to judge God? And if we can't judge God, why should we even try to have a relationship with such an inscrutable and unknowable entity?
Here's my problems with your views on 'fairness,' Tom...
You've got your idea of what's fair. Susy down the street has an entirely differing view of what's 'fair.' Me, I think God is infinitely 'fair.' Yet, others think I'm up in the night with my view of fairness.
So, who is right?
Your logic implies that God should be everything anyone wants him to be. You feel that he should be at your beck and call, changing the color of little pieces of paper inside of envelopes in your closet because you deemed that test to be fair. Your view of what God 'should' be is more like the Genie from Aladdin, who is cute, cuddly and wise cracking, yet powerful enough to grant any little wish you may have so as to give you your little brand of percieved happiness.
That's why I said that it doesn't matter what Tom thinks is fair. Because it doesn't. You are not God. God is no respecter of persons. It's his world, his plan, his salvation. He gave you life, an opportunity to return to live with him, and the free agency to make it so. If you don't agree on his rule of the game, then it's too bad for you.
If you're in the NBA, Tom, you can't travel. No matter how much you jump up and down, cry like Rasheed Wallace and curse and swear, they're still going to blow the whistle, take the ball from you and give the side out to the opposing side. There's nothing you can do about it, except cry and carry on that you don't think it's fair that you have to dribble.
And you know what? All of your logical explanations of why you shouldn't have to dribble may be very valid and make sense, but they don't matter because it's not how you play the game.
Now, I know that all analogies can be picked apart, and I'm sure you find flaws in this one, but my main point is this...
Who are you to judge God? Who am I to judge God? I mean, sure we can, and then we take ourselves out of his plan of redemption and when his absolute truth is revealed at his Son's second coming, what does our judgement of what we logically thought was fair amount to?
I can see where you think that it doesn't seem fair that a God would do it, but I would ask you, what else CAN he do?
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quote: I'm pretty sure that Christians are just as statistically likely as anyone else to die of cancer and plane crashes.
I'd just like to point out that from a christian perspective death is only a horrible tragedy if you are not right with God. Which is not to say that we won't miss our loved ones terribly, but in general death is no more a tragedy than growing up is or youth or old age or any other stage of human development.
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"Your view of what God 'should' be is more like the Genie from Aladdin, who is cute, cuddly and wise cracking, yet powerful enough to grant any little wish you may have so as to give you your little brand of percieved happiness."
You know, I'm CONSIDERABLY more charitable when describing you and your faith, Pat. I expect the same.
I judge God because, in almost all religions, God is said to want things of us -- PARTICULARLY, in Western religion, our love and devotion.
Me, I am not capable of loving or being devoted to a being that is essentially unknowable, unpredictable, and -- as far as I can ascertain, by the only standard that actually matters in this instance (i.e. mine) -- unfair. He presumably already knows everyone in the world; they need to get to know HIM. And if He makes that effectively impossible, what can He expect?
My God doesn't have to be cute, cuddly, or witty. He doesn't have to pop out of a bottle like a djinn to bring me peeled grapes and rub my feet. But He DOES have to make logical sense, and remain beholden to the people He has created and the morality laid out for them. A life with this God has to be demonstrably better than a life without Him. The recipes and instructions of this God should work in all cases, for anyone who tries them. Tasks and trials should not be arbitrary, senseless, and cruel -- and if they SEEM arbitrary, senseless, or cruel, God should actually pop down and EXPLAIN Himself now and then.
We are not laboratory animals, to be tested without explanation; we are not horses, to be put out to stud and trained to perform. If we are TREATED that way, God should expect no more love from us than lab animals and broken horses show to their tormentors.
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Scott, I can certainly recognize that God can't or won't prevent ALL misfortune -- but you'd think that there would be a statistically measurable difference between people who worship the right God who, in a moment of crisis, cry out in prayer and are saved from being maimed by a combine and those who don't. Right?
And if not, to get back to the point of this thread, if what God chooses to do on your behalf is not only arbitrary but outright capricious, can that be considered HELPFUL?
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quote:Scott, I can certainly recognize that God can't or won't prevent ALL misfortune -- but you'd think that there would be a statistically measurable difference between people who worship the right God who, in a moment of crisis, cry out in prayer and are saved from being maimed by a combine and those who don't. Right?
Why? The rain falls on the just and the unjust.
quote:if what God chooses to do on your behalf is not only arbitrary but outright capricious, can that be considered HELPFUL?
It depends on your relationship with God. I know His goodness. The trials I face no longer seem capricious. The closer I come to Him, the better I am able to see how He is trying to shape my life.
Not being with you, Tom, not being you, I cannot say why He is silent toward you.
He doesn't share the details of His relationship with others with me.
[ October 13, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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posted
"Why? The rain falls on the just and the unjust."
Using this logic, why are some people given money when they tithe beyond their means? Is tithing MORE holy than, say, driving a combine?
What about tithing entitles someone to a free windfall, when driving a combine to earn the money that enables you to tithe does not?
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posted
Tithing is a matter of obedience and trust.
It isn't guaranteed. For every story of money appearing from no where, there are stories is a considerably scaled back lifestyle due to the loss of ten percent of income.
That's not a tragedy, though. In comparison to the blessings, it doesn't even register.
posted
How is it possible, then, for anyone who has had a family member come through for them after a tithing to argue that this is evidence of God's blessing, when -- as kat points out -- God clearly does not come through on a majority of similar occasions? Do these people believe that they are more deserving of God's blessing in this regard than others in an identical situation?
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posted
I think those are side blessings - not the real benefit of tithing.
There's no such thing as a purely temporal (earthly, practical) commandment. So, while sometimes family members come through, or scholarships are not lost, or money magically appears, that's kind of like gravy. The real blessings of tithing come from the obedience to the spiritual law - making the Lord more important than your own desires in a very concrete way.
Added: And those spiritual blessings of tithing come through for everyone.
posted
Tithing is a sacrifice, not a bribe. It is something that can't be taken back. It shouldn't be given in hopes of anything coming of it. It is a simple way of saying, "Lord, I give back to you a percentage of what I have gained from this life. I do it freely and to show appreciation for the blessings I have."
Does it come back to you tenfold? Not in direct financial rewards. Should it come back to you? Nope, it doesn't work that way. It's not meant to "work".
It is about being thankful, not about gaining favor. You, by even existing, are already in God's favor. A tithe (whatever it might be) is an offering to God saying "Thank you for everything I have been given."
It's not "Thank you sir, might I have another?"
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quote: How is it possible, then, for anyone who has had a family member come through for them after a tithing to argue that this is evidence of God's blessing, when -- as kat points out -- God clearly does not come through on a majority of similar occasions? Do these people believe that they are more deserving of God's blessing in this regard than others in an identical situation?
In essence, it sounds like you're trying to ask if you can buy a blessing.
Well, no, you can't. If you give 10% of your income, and somebody else who makes a lot more money gives 20%, their blessing won't be greater.
Also, I wouln't expect a blessing if you just gave money for other reasons that God intends (acceptance in the community for example).
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posted
And, if I've learned correctly, a tithe doesn't have to be just money. It can also be a sacrifice of goods, work or time.
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It wasn't meant as a slight Tom, it was a genuine explanation of what I have gathered of your view of God.
Listen, Tom. No one respects you and your beliefs more than I. I've defended you in front of other Mormons on several occassions. You came asking, and I explained.
It looks like Jacare and kat are doing a good job keeping you entertained now, so I'll back off.
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"In essence, it sounds like you're trying to ask if you can buy a blessing."
Nope. Frankly, I'm assuming that you CAN'T. But there are people on this very thread who have said that God has helped them by covering the cost of a tithe when they really needed it. I'm wondering why, if this is so common that fully half of the Mormons posting here claim to have experienced it, it isn't CONSISTENT.
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"It wasn't meant as a slight Tom, it was a genuine explanation of what I have gathered of your view of God."
That genuinely depresses me, Pat. I had assumed -- obviously incorrectly -- that you understood I was not looking for a cute, cuddy genie. Rather, I'm looking for a God that doesn't appear dangerously insane.
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posted
Tom, you need to understand tha God that most Mormons see.
First we believe God created our spiritual bodies, but he did not create our intelligences. That has existed from the beginning of time. In other words, you were you and will be you forever. So God did not create that part of you that makes you who you are.
Second, God lives in infinity. His goal is to get as many of his children back to him, better than they were when they left. When I went to school I had to pay for tuition and books but not my room and board. My father could have easily paid for the wholle experience. But, he knew that something that I am willing to pay for, I will cherish that much more. The same with our father in heaven. If we choose to follow him and pay the prices that life throws at us, how much more are we going to gain in experience and knowledge. Do you appreciate a gift at christmas as much as something you had to work ahard to acheive.
I know a family own busines that is failing in the third generation. The first generation struggled and got the business running. The second generatioon having witnessed first hand the struggle countinued the growth. The third generation always had money and never learned how much work was required to just to stay at status-quo.
Life is hard and we all have our baggage. Some would rather say I wish I had his life, than make tha most of their own. It is a fatalistic view, because the grass is always greener.
Thirdly, we do not believe everyone must reach the same level of perfection to gain heaven. As in the parrable of the talents. Not everyone was given the same starting point or required to be at the same ending point to acheive the reward. But the one who did nothing with what was given him, lost all.
We believe this life is a test and everyone has their own burdens. Some it is the burden of wealth, some their evironment and others their physical bodies. Who are we to say which is worse. All that God requires is that we improve on our lot in life and follow his teachings.
Remember to God our life span is an exretmly minute time period.
I could go on to point out why we believe God to be bound by certain "natural laws", but that requires alot of back ground which I would happily send two suit clad young men to your house to explain. Posts: 1244 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I think the reason, when asked about the blessings of tithing, people come up with money-appearing stories (and I do have my own) is because those are easier to understand and tangible example of a blessings.
Paying tithing is a very tangible exhibition of obedience - you do or you don't. However, neither the writing of the check or the money appearing are really the point of tithing. Tithing is a matter of willing sacrifice and placing the Lord above your own desires, and the spiritual blessings of tithing - well, they are many, but at least for me, one of the blessings is a constant reminder that I'm not the center of the universe and that every great work requires exactly that - work. Since that's so personal, though, and since not everyone gets the same thing out of it, it's a less scintilating story than the (true) money-appearing yarn.
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