quote:So far, we are dealing with the individual, and what he can do to affect change in his life and surroundings. How can an individual identify racism and act accordingly.
By not subscribing to ethnocentrist ideals, like Robespierre does.
For example:
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You don't think whites celebrate their 'whiteness?' Have you never been to a St. Paddy's Day parade? An Italian-American festival? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are deliberately confusing ethnicity with race. Celebrating one's Irish roots does equate with celebrating one's whiteness. There exist black italians. Are they celebrating their whiteness when they celebrate their Italian heritage?
No, they are celebrating their being Italian. It is entirely possibly to be of both white and black heritages, and not have them conflict with each other. I have family that does so quite well. What you are unwilling to accept it that Italian and Irish festivals are celebrations of ethnicity for primarily white people, and are trying to say that since there are no absolutes, that it is absolutely false. I am saying the majority is defining the whole in general, and you can't accept that.
quote:If these people were to define themselves solely by their ethnic background, they would be, to use your word of the day, ethno-centric.
Anyone defining themselves solely by their own ethnic viewpoint is ethnocentric. Like yourself—you are unwilling to accept the viewpoints of anything other than a white male American perspective.
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition, I've never been chased out of an African-American festival, the Latin-American celebrations I've attended --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you were able to control your urge to dismiss people based on their race.
Or perhaps it is because I was celebrating their diversity right along with them, and in return was celebrated for acknowledging the positive aspects of diveristy. I suggest trying it someday, as it could prove quite educational for you.
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In this case, what I have been arguing against is the notion that America is somehow equal because there is no outward racist legislature, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We argue against the same thing. Affirmative Action (outwardly racist legislature) has not made America equal somehow.
Except you are trying to say that America was more equal before AA, and I am saying that it was not. Even the removal of AA will not solve things, so you should stop trying to argue against it with me. This has never been about Affirmative Action with me, and has been a major factor in just about all of your arguments. You're trying to blame a symptom for the cause.
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- but the people still by and large have social misconceptions and prejudices that have either never been addressed or have never been fully addressed.
Would you say that an individual is responsible for his or her own thoughts? How should we as a society go about fixing this problem?
Education. And it is an individual, communal, and societal issue. Your flaw is that you are expecting treating the whole of the problem on the individual level to provide a solution. People are social creatures by nature, and even the most basic social sciences corroberate this. Trying to treat a social prejudice with individual methods will not work (and has not worked).
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and claim "everything is okay now" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone in this thread claimed that? If not, why bring it up over and over?
Once again, this is a case of "didn't say those words directly." You have claimed repeatedly that the nation is equal in opportunity and treatment, with the many cases I cited as either unrelated or unrepresentative of the nation. This is despite the vast number of cases along with the wide area of coverage. Like I said to Sopwith, you don't have to take my sources and links as the final say, but unless you look for whether or not those cases I have cited exist in larger numbers in many areas throughout the nation, then you are being intentionally ignorant or disregarding the cases as per your own ethnocentric view. You can discount what I have shown, but what you cannot do is show that these cases are not widely spread and numerous throughout the country. What you cannot disprove is that blacks get an average of 10% less than whites for the same jobs, with equal qualifications. What you cannot disprove are the misconceptions the general public has towards minorities in terms of presence, work ethic, and intelligence.
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quote: you are unwilling to accept the viewpoints of anything other than a white male American perspective.
What is the agreed upon viewpoint of white male americans? Will you cease your racist dismissal of my posts?
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quote: Or perhaps it is because I was celebrating their diversity right along with them, and in return was celebrated for acknowledging the positive aspects of diveristy. I suggest trying it someday, as it could prove quite educational for you.
If only we could all be as understanding and diverse as you. Unfortunately, there are not many African Americans where I live. There are many blacks however. Perhaps I could go to a black festival.
posted
First of all Leto, I don't blame anyone for not answering ANY of your questions. You bait, switch, beg and load question. We established your racist comments, and you did not admit to their nature. (no, I am not saying YOU are racist, the comments can easily come from defensiveness).
Your quote Leto:
quote: What you are unwilling to accept it that Italian and Irish festivals are celebrations of ethnicity for primarily white people, and are trying to say that since there are no absolutes, that it is absolutely false. I am saying the majority is defining the whole in general, and you can't accept that.
I have no idea what this means:
"The majority is defining the whole in general."
Leto, you have a track record of stating things, in PERSONAL ATTACK, that mean absolutely nothing because they are deliberately vague.
The following statement is false, worthless, and deliberately inflammatory.
quote: Like I said to Sopwith, you don't have to take my sources and links as the final say, but unless you look for whether or not those cases I have cited exist in larger numbers in many areas throughout the nation, then you are being intentionally ignorant or disregarding the cases as per your own ethnocentric view.
You expect them to convince themselves of something that you want to convince them of.
I am here because I belive that it IS possible to find a real answer to the question "what is racism." I am here because I believe it is possible to answer the question the thread asks.
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You can't even agree on what to define "racist" as, basically allocating it to anything that you disagree with.
The white American male perspective is as follows:
Equal opportunity is there, minorities are not always taking advantage of it.
Equal opportunity is determined by the supposition that laws are applied equally to everyone, thus making both opportunity and punishment equal.
Celebrations for African-Americans and Latin-Americans is racist by nature, but celebrations for Italian-, Irish-, Scottish-, German-, and other-Americans is not.
The list has been cut down to being overly simplistic, but I can break it down further at a later date for more points and clarity.
If you stand behind even two of these three, you are viewing the nation from an ethnocentric viewpoint. Robes, you have espoused the first two and hinted at the third at least once in this thread, placing you squarely within the ethnocentric realm.
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Chocodile, two honest questions borne out of simple curiousity--have you ever posted at Hatrack before Oct. 2003? If so, under what screen name?
Anonyimity is yours if you like, I know I treasure mine, but I would appriciate an honest reply, even if you decline to answer.
quote:You expect them to convince themselves of something that you want to convince them of.
I am here because I belive that it IS possible to find a real answer to the question "what is racism." I am here because I believe it is possible to answer the question the thread asks.
No, you are here to try and police my posts. I am asking you to stop it.
I said that they don't have to take my word for it, but to dismiss my sources is to openly embrace ignorance. If they do not trust my sources, go find more. It's not difficult, especially in today's electronic information age. I gave sources that I have had for quite some time, saved from previous study on the issue. However, if they want to question my study on it, I urge them to study it on their own. I am not here to change minds. In this forum, people rarely change their minds due to some outstanding post, and usually change their views post-hoc with personal study. I have supplied the beginnings of viewpoints outside of their own. They can dislike me personally all they wish, but more of the same information is readily out there for all to read.
Morbo: Chocodile has been from the start recognized as someone who has already been posting under another name (for some time, if they remember posts of mine earlier than a few days prior), or is someone Robespierre knows outside of Hatrack. I'm judging the former, I just haven't bothered caring about exactly who it is.
[ October 31, 2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Leto II ]
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damn, Sopwith was right. You just keep raking and raking.
It is difficult for me to understand how you don't see the irony in classifying MY beliefs as a member of my race on a thread about racism.
Whether or not this can become apparent to you is something I'm interested in.
And the only forum I have ever posted on before was the Diablo ii beta test forum under the name Photograph...a much different forum...
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quote: You can't even agree on what to define "racist" as, basically allocating it to anything that you disagree with.
The white American male perspective is as follows: Equal opportunity is there, minorities are not always taking advantage of it. Equal opportunity is determined by the supposition that laws are applied equally to everyone, thus making both opportunity and punishment equal. Celebrations for African-Americans and Latin-Americans is racist by nature, but celebrations for Italian-, Irish-, Scottish-, German-, and other-Americans is not.
Its pretty amazing how closely the white american male perspective resembles your claims of MY perspective. I had no idea that ALL white american males thought that way. Perhaps you should inform us of what EVERY black american male thinks about this topic.
quote: placing you squarely within the ethnocentric realm.
Apparently I have company in there, ALL white american males.
quote: Are you saying that you don't believe that the vast majority of racism in America is perpetrated by whites on non-whites?
Are you saying that you don't believe that America's social system is biased towards whites?
Are you seriously saying that racist ideas which permeate even to today are not the result of white racism?
Okay, into the lion's den. First off, Leto, I fear few things and you didn't make the list. But hey, let me walk into the mine field you've laid, if nothing else than to amuse you.
1. Well, considering that I can't seem to find any statistics that point to every condescending sneer, off-color joke, missed job opportunity, violent crime and judicial shenanigans, I couldn't prove that statement and neither can you. How about working out the math for me Leto, and figure in percentage ratios based on racial population levels in the US for citizens, immigrants and illegal immigrants. Make a big old pie chart while you are at it. Strangely enough, this isn't something I've ever said isn't happening, but instead tried to point out that racism, in all of its forms, is found within just about any group at the level of individuals. I also spoke to the point that this is a situation that all parties must be involved in to solve. Perhaps you didn't read very closely, or you had already prejudiced yourself against such statements?
2. America' social system? Which facet do you wish to address or would you like to discuss it in whole? I see a huge number of folks having a very hard time with the American social system as it stands now, black, white, Hispanic, Asian and others. Perhaps you only view blacks as having a hard time anymore, but I argue that there are factors that can be easily waged on any group's behalf for saying that they are not getting a fair shake in today's world. Legislatively, we've made it ILLEGAL to discriminate in the areas where we could legislate, but we cannot legislate the thought processes of individuals.
3. Yes, I am saying pretty much that. Strangely enough, racism isn't a blacks and whites issue purely, and certainly not from the start. Racism is something that has plagued mankind from the beginning. At first it was my tribe and your tribe. Then it was us and the people who lived over beyond those hills. Next it was my ethnic group and the others. Racism stems from a fear of those who are not like us and it festers into hatred. Whites do not have the pure collar on this, it has been exhibited throughout time simply because it is a sad and terrible part of human nature, one that is overcome by education and exposure. Xenophobia is a natural reaction and behaviorists could probably trace it back along the evolutionary chain to single-celled organisms. Our most primitive parts of the brain scream "Danger!" when we see what is not us. That reaction has been institutionalized over the milennia in a myriad of different forms. In America it has certainly shown itself in the forms of racism that you point to, but what you suggest, even within our own society, is not unique to one racial group. It was, however, a legal institution in this country for a long period of time and that is a shameful and terrible mark on this nation.
Now, read whatever you want to into this and make of it what you will. I mean, heck, I'd answered all of those questions before in earlier posts, but I guess I need to "prove myself" by answering directly to you, special delivery.
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Leto, I have not been posting on hatrack before, and your amazingly sudden conclusions really kind of bother me. Everything becomes a personal attack. This is not about the politics of the Forum here. I do not agree with Storms or Robespierres philosophies, so do not lump me in with them. I defended them for the reason I gave earlier. You attacked them in a thread about race based on their race.
If you are here to pursuade (even post-hoc), then you are wasting your breath with insults. Insulting people does not encourage them to understand you.
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quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Or perhaps it is because I was celebrating their diversity right along with them, and in return was celebrated for acknowledging the positive aspects of diveristy. I suggest trying it someday, as it could prove quite educational for you.
If only we could all be as understanding and diverse as you. Unfortunately, there are not many African Americans where I live. There are many blacks however. Perhaps I could go to a black festival.
Gee, how utterly insulting of you to say that. While I'm sure you understand the term "African-American" applies to blacks in America—mostly because over 90% of them are descendants of African slaves and not immigrants from other continents or nations—you decide to insult blacks by saying they cannot be considered African-Americans. I also hope you realized that you have now stooped to insulting my family as well as me. You must be proud to harp on such things as how you feel everyone else in the world should qualify things according to your view. In case it doesn't occur to anyone else, this is an example of ethnocentrism.
quote:Its pretty amazing how closely the white american male perspective resembles your claims of MY perspective. I had no idea that ALL white american males thought that way. Perhaps you should inform us of what EVERY black american male thinks about this topic.
You are seriously trolling this time. The "white American male" perspective I put forth was in regard to ethnocentric ideals. I didn't say every white American male thinks this way, I said that it is the white American male ethnocentric view. And yes, you fall squarely into that ethnocentric view. You can also not justify why blacks get paid 10% less than whites doing the same jobs with the same qualifications (especially in the white-collar realm); you cannot justify why almost a million people in just three states support racist legislation that has been obsolete for thirty years; you cannot prove that the general public conception of non-white ethnicities regards them as equal to whites in terms of work ethic and intelligence.
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quote:Leto, I have not been posting on hatrack before, and your amazingly sudden conclusions really kind of bother me. Everything becomes a personal attack.
Personal attack? Excuse me, but I have never implied you have attacked me personally. You have not understood things that I have said, and you have tried to play "good cop" in a discussion while contributing little, but you haven't attacked me at all. I said from the first time I addressed you that I figured you were someone else, and your claims to the contrary now don't convince me. However, I don't care, and have still been replying to you. Mayhap you should not try to play some kind of victim in this case just because you want to feel attacked.
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quote: Jacare, did I adequately answer your question about the pork issue?
Sorry Leto, I must have missed it. I've just been skimming the last couple of pages. I'll have to look closer.
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posted
Choco, basically, after a short while, Leto will accuse you of being the latest incarnation of Cedrios, a troll of great reknown here. Don't let it shake you off, Leto does this about once every couple of months as part of that whole schoolyard bully deal.
And speaking of that:
quote: Why don't you answer my questions, Sopwith? What are you afraid of?
Isn't this exactly what I was saying? It's like he has your lunch money and you can have it back if you'll just fight him... unless you're chicken. So sad; so very, very sad.
Enough of that, welcome to Hatrack Choco, we might not agree on everything, but I respect someone with some steel in their spine.
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quote:You must be proud to harp on such things as how you feel everyone else in the world should qualify things according to your view.
You are the rhetorical genius here. Certainly you can understand that most American blacks are not from Africa, but from America. And just as you would not label whites born in the USA as European-Americans, or at least should not, so should the term African Americans be reserved for those who immigrate to the US from the continent of Africa.
quote: you decide to insult blacks by saying they cannot be considered African-Americans.
I insult no one. You have a very thin skin for this discussion, that is obvious. If it upsets you so much, I advise you not to keep coming back. I guess you knew I was going to say though, since I'm a typical non-diverse white guy ethno-centrist racist slave owner.
quote: I also hope you realized that you have now stooped to insulting my family as well as me.
This is low, even for you. I did not insult your damn family. As best I can see, they have not come into this thread and labeled me as a typical white guy.
quote: In case it doesn't occur to anyone else, this is an example of ethnocentrism.
I can't imagine why anyone would think of that word, especially after you have been throwing it around with such abandon.
quote:The "white American male" perspective I put forth was in regard to ethnocentric ideals. I didn't say every white American male thinks this way, I said that it is the white American male ethnocentric view.
And since I am a white american ethnocentrist, this is what I think? Even if you had said that, it would be damning, but you actually said this:
quote: The white American male perspective is as follows:
You see how you have changed your story? You DID say "The White American Male perspective is as follows." You ARE a racist. You have labeled an entire group of people based on the color of their skin.
quote: You can also not justify why blacks get paid 10% less than whites doing the same jobs with the same qualifications
Oh, I must have forgotten all those times when I said there was NO RACISM. Man, what is your mental block on this?
posted
Sopwith: Q1: Are you saying that you don't believe that the vast majority of racism in America is perpetrated by whites on non-whites?
quote:1. Well, considering that I can't seem to find any statistics that point to every condescending sneer, off-color joke, missed job opportunity, violent crime and judicial shenanigans, I couldn't prove that statement and neither can you.
Except that I gave many links and sources that support exactly what I said.
quote:How about working out the math for me Leto, and figure in percentage ratios based on racial population levels in the US for citizens, immigrants and illegal immigrants. Make a big old pie chart while you are at it.
Did you read my posts? I did supply numbers and quantification. When jacare asked me about those three states voting on removing old racist statements and law, I even went out and got the actual issue that was on the ballot for each. You're saying that I haven't supplied anything when I most definitely have. If you don't believe my sources, search for them on your own.
quote:Strangely enough, this isn't something I've ever said isn't happening, but instead tried to point out that racism, in all of its forms, is found within just about any group at the level of individuals. I also spoke to the point that this is a situation that all parties must be involved in to solve. Perhaps you didn't read very closely, or you had already prejudiced yourself against such statements?
The problem is that white Americans make up more than 75% of the population, while non-whites make up less than 25%. If equally 10 or 20 percent of each were openly racist, the white American population of racists would still greatly outweigh the non-white population of racists. In other words, they are not equal. (warning: the example I gave is an oversimplification for brevity's sake. If you really want the answers they will not fall into your outstretched hands or come through an internet forum. I have shown the results of my proactive searching, why don't you show some results of your own?)
Q2:Are you saying that you don't believe that America's social system is biased towards whites?
quote:2. America' social system? Which facet do you wish to address or would you like to discuss it in whole? I see a huge number of folks having a very hard time with the American social system as it stands now, black, white, Hispanic, Asian and others. Perhaps you only view blacks as having a hard time anymore, but I argue that there are factors that can be easily waged on any group's behalf for saying that they are not getting a fair shake in today's world.
Care to provide examples of whites not getting a "fair shake?" I am more than willing to bet you that the lack of fairness in the examples is the result of economic prejudice. Alternatively, the lack of fairness in non-white examples that I already linked with sources showed a large amount of racial bias and prejudice, up to and including unemployment numbers and discrimination in the workplace.
quote:Legislatively, we've made it ILLEGAL to discriminate in the areas where we could legislate, but we cannot legislate the thought processes of individuals.
Which only shows that legislation does not make racism go away. Since I never argued that legislation makes racism go away, there's really not much to say on the subject. My claim is that the majority of racism is based on white ethnocentrism, and I gave multiple examples from more than one direction to support it.
Q3:Are you seriously saying that racist ideas which permeate even to today are not the result of white racism?
quote:3. Yes, I am saying pretty much that. Strangely enough, racism isn't a blacks and whites issue purely, and certainly not from the start.
How about in America?
In fact, I'm not even going to go through the rest of the answer to this, becaus you have decided to diverge away from the question regarding America because I made the mistake of not specifically putting "in America" in the question. Can you try to answer that again, with "in America" inside the question?
quote:Now, read whatever you want to into this and make of it what you will. I mean, heck, I'd answered all of those questions before in earlier posts, but I guess I need to "prove myself" by answering directly to you, special delivery.
And yet you have yet to reply to any of my previous posts where you disagree, you only discount it because the big, bad Leto is the one saying it.
[ October 31, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Leto II ]
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posted
You know what, screw this crap. I have not accused Choco of being Kevin, nor do I even think Choco is Kevin. This thread has degraded to becoming an "attack Leto" thread (with few exceptions, like Choco... feel free to question me via e-mail if you like).
just_me, feel free to e-mail me if you want clarification on everything I have posted to date. I am not taking part in this thread any more.
[another edit] And the same goes out to others, like Sopwith, who may want to reply and see what I have to say about it. I won't be posting any more in this thread, but you can feel free to refer back to it for quotes if you like.
This is not an invitation to spam me or hate-mail me. If it happens, not only will it be locked, but your ISP will be alerted that you are spamming unsolicited.
[ October 31, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Leto II ]
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Ok, I'm gonna trust people who have been on the forum for a while and lay off Leto after this post. He knows not what he does.
I disagree with you that I have contributed little. I have tried to redefine and refocus the thread several times.
I have not "tried to play 'good cop.'" If you thought that, maybe to you I just AM 'good cop.'
Finally, I was not implying that I personally attacked you. I was implying that you personally attacked me over and over. In addition, you respond to personal attacks by encouraging them, as per my statement: "you give Robespierre too much power over you." His arguments constantly degraded into personal attack and you apparently enjoyed it.
Also, it doesn't matter to me who you think I am. Whatever politics of this forum I walked in on don't really concern me. If you think I'm LYING about claiming that I have never posted on this thread before, there's probably nothing I could do to convince otherwise, so why try?
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I was trying to figure out where all this came from. It just occured to me that my quote:
quote: Leto, you have a track record of stating things, in PERSONAL ATTACK, that mean absolutely nothing because they are deliberately vague.
The following statement is false, worthless, and deliberately inflammatory.
may easily have stumbled on some sensitive material, I don't know who kevin is, but he doesn't help me define racism.
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It is a human behavior not unlike classism, or any other behavior resulting from social interaction of people. Racism is solved by whom it is experienced, the individual. I can fight racism as it comes up in my life, or I can actively pursue its demise. The question of the forum is flawed.
Being black(white) does *not* define who you are. This is a misconception that you can have.
posted
in case anyone is wondering about Leto's comment(the one directed to me, not his whole reply); t's in reference to a post that I made, then went to redit and accidentally deleted.
And, just out of curiousity, why would I be the "exception" to people being allowed to send emails to Leto...
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Whoever you want. Just make sure to sound as offended as possible and pass it off as being completely the other person's fault. You'll fit right in.
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Are you implying that I belong in the same category as the other lame, wannabe-racist trolls that have graced this thread? Your accusation borders on racism, and I won't stand for it. What kind of lawyer are you anyway?
Wait a minute, I thought we were talking about the guys who drive race cars! You mean racists are... geez! Total misunderstanding. Sorry everyone. Leto, you can come back, I thought you were disparaging NASCAR.
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I had to finish my costume, which is now drying (fast i hope), and now I have to go to work. But I'll be back tomorrow to try and figure this out.
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Choco, you misunderstood Leto. He didn't say you could not e-mail him. He said you were an exception to the Leto-bashing, and that you could e-mail him if you wanted to discuss this further.
FWIW, I think the suggestion that Leto was going to accuse Choco of being Kevin was out of line, given that, as far as I can recall, Leto has never accused somebody of being Cedrios for no apparent reason. What happened with Duragon was that other people saw evidence that he was Cedrios, and Leto was simply louder in spreading the word. As I recall, in the end, those who said Duragon was Cedrios were proven to be correct. I believe that each time Cedrios has been discovered, there has been independent corroborating evidence, such as posts accidentally put in under the wrong name and then rapidly deleted and reposted. (This is pretty easy to do, actually. I did it myself when using an alternative name to avoid a landmark, and also while posting as "Fluff" in the Hatrack Horsemen of the Apocalypse thread.) In another case, he admitted his screennames to another hatracker whom he was dating. In a third case, he admitted it to somebody on AIM. So to suggest that Leto goes around suggesting that anybody who disagrees with him is Kevin is unfair. My first encounter with John was in a pretty intense argument, and he certainly never accused me of being Cedrios. Likewise, for all of his disagreement with Robespierre, he has not accused him of being Cedrios.
In addition, I have found that Leto is generally the sort of person who will argue vehemently on an issue, but not take it outside of the thread as long as you don't. While he is a lot more aggressive in argument than I am, I consider him to be a worthy adversary when we disagree and somebody I respect in general.
(In addition, I feel similarly about Storm, and so I think it's a shame that they dislike each other so intensely.)
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I'm pretty sure he's been right about all the Cedrios incarnations.
Leto might be an aggressive and belligerent bugger from time to time, but he's also incredibly intelligent, his arguments are cogent and he knows what he's talking about. I can't say the same for his critics on this thread. In fact, while Leto is very harsh in his responses, he never sinks the childish name calling that someone like Sopwith delights in.
Considering the crap that was heaped on him in this thread, I think it's pretty commendable that he stayed as cool as he did.
On the other hand, I'm glad this thread revealed the true colours of some other posters around here.
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I just want to thank Leto for putting as much time and thought into this thread as he has.
quote: It is a human behavior not unlike classism, or any other behavior resulting from social interaction of people. Racism is solved by whom it is experienced, the individual. I can fight racism as it comes up in my life, or I can actively pursue its demise. The question of the forum is flawed.
Being black(white) does *not* define who you are. This is a misconception that you can have.
Someone help me here.
Chroc, there is an aspect of you that is defined by your relations with other people. This is non-negligible part. And to the extent that being black or white determines the content and quality of those relations, your skin color does define that part of who you are.
Racism isn't something that is merely happens to an individual, like an external blow, it's deeper than that. It's like drinking poisoned water, or have you ever had so much garlic in a meal that you find yourself sweating the stuff. It's part of you, just like Iowa is part of the United States.
posted
Sadly, I didn't delight in calling Leto a schoolyard bully, but that was the picture he had painted of himself, yet again. My choice of that term was carefully considered and was rendered not as a taunt to Leto, but as a warning to Choco.
If I have somehow exposed some insidious evil, hidden nature in myself, then even I am surprised. I might suggest, however, that those making the claims go back and read Leto's posts.
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Indeed, my mistake was taking Leto a little too seriously.
Sopwith, that's the second time you've mentioned evil as something to be careful of. We could have some interesting disscussions.
Man, I guess those are supposed to be little smiley Graemlins in the party icon animation, but they look way too much like the old mascot for 7up, the 'cool spot.' This annoys me. Posts: 45 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: Chroc, there is an aspect of you that is defined by your relations with other people. This is non-negligible part.
I agree completely. This is extremely important.
quote: And to the extent that being black or white determines the content and quality of those relations, your skin color does define that part of who you are.
So should skin color (as a determiner of the content and quality of your relations with other people) continue to define that part of who you are?
The answer I'm hearing from a lot of people sounds like: It already does define part of who you are, so there's nothing you can do to remove it.
I hear a lot of people saying a lot of things that don't make sense to me. The question of the thread is designed to be answered 'no.' If you can show me how the question is flawed and should be answered 'yes,' I will listen.
I guess sort of what I'm looking for is a basic rule-set. Peoples thoughts and attitudes are in large defined by their relationships with other people. This is why the type of language you use changes the way you think.
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posted
It does. It shouldn't interfere how people act with other people, but it does anyway.
Racism has been around before history. Neanderthals vs. cro-magnon.
Maybe some day we can evolve above it, but that may happen long after we're dead. The best we can do is do the best we can do. Not everyone is going to change overnight.
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quote: It shouldn't interfere how people act with other people, but it does anyway.
quote:The best we can do is do the best we can do.
These statements seem dangerous when mixed together. I don't care how long it's been around, if I'm racist, then I can find a new way of understanding people that is not racist.
People's shared goals (as a species) and shared ideologies don't require a leap in evolution.
Maybe Leto thinks that Storm Saxton, Robespierre, and all the other whites want to be racist and are surreptitiously finding a way to preserve it.
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Hi starla, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. Sorry if I came across as one. So what do you think is the answer to the question?
And are you new to the forum too? Did you get attacked and accused of being a spy too? I hope it happens to everyone, then I'll feel better.
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This is not always true. Society changes based on its surroundings and those people within it. It acts much like the process of evolution. Evolution does not always produce more complicated more "progressive" species. Societies are the same, they do not always evolve to a more "progressive" state.
quote: I think that some whites are trying to preserve the status quo, I don't think every white person is.
I get the impression that a lot of you out there think racism is something that only whites can be guilty of. I am not berating anyone, I just want to know if this is the perception.
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