posted
this may be offensive, and i dont mean it to be, but i apoligize in advance if it is.
maybe im an idiot for thinking i could actually do something about it, but something needs to be done. the biggest problem i can see is that some females want special treatment from males and that special treatment sets up a standard. this is one of those tow-sided deals, special treatment= needs. by wanting to be treated differently than males, females set themselves up to be protected. that is why when when a crim is commited against a female, it is a lot bigger deal then when it is commited against a male. and in the military, a female is injured, the news is all over it and she is automatically a hero. but she did nothing more than any of her males counterparts in the military. she signed up, went through training and that was that.
at this point u may fail to see my point, but here it is, females want to be treated the same as males, but they also want benifits solely because they are female.
listen, i have nothing against anybody, i just want to know the general opinion of the hatrackers out there. mabe next week we can tackle racism.
Posts: 283 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I guess it's a difficult question. I would say it all about the difference between "men and women are different" (that's absolutely true ! ) and "men and women are not equal" (and that's damn false). I mean, of course we're different. Different hormones, body, reactions and all that. But we should always have the samle rights and duties, if you ask me. That's what means equality.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Peter, sounds like you're in favor of pretending the whole issue doesn't exist.
For you, maybe, it seems that it all started with the problem of females wanting special treatment, and also wanting to be treated like males?
Hmmm, would it be helpful for you to look at one example of how it started with someone else? For me it started when I was about 2 and my older brother taught me that girls don't have brains. I thought it was an anatomical fact.
It's hard to remember this stuff. There was the time when I was about seven and a new boy moved onto our block and for a week he convinced my best friend that it was icky to play with girls, so I was alone and wondering what was going on. After a few days Wesley explained what was happening, and after a few more days, Keith relented, and we all three became good friends.
Then it was constantly defying people's expectations. How many zillion times have I been told, those are boys' toys? That's not the way girls play. Why do you have to get so dirty? Look at your new dress! We were made to wear dresses to school. It's awkward to hang upside down from the monkey bars in a dress. No big deal, we just tucked the hems into the bottoms of our underpants and that did well enough. You can't crawl in a dress, though. It gets under your knees and you run up onto it and choke yourself.
Even now at church I have the problem that I am supposed to wear a dress, yet when I get there after the service it's my job to crawl around on the floor of the nursery with the kids. A dress is an inappropriate item of clothing to wear into the nursery. I think I'll start bringing something and changing after sacrament meeting.
Then there was the part about being really good in school at math and science. I kept being told I didn't want to take that sort of thing. Be in the choir instead. Take home ec instead of shop.
The problem with "like a girl" is that it isn't a life. Being a girl full time, being pretty and appealing, being quiet and clean, is not really a full life. It asks nothing from you, from who you are, really. It only seeks to shush you up and supress you. There are other callings than that. We have other callings. We are much more than that.
So, back to school age. Guys mostly don't really go for girls who are accomplished and brilliant. I've known only a few guys who find intelligence and accomplishments attractive. There was enormous pressure to always sandbag when playing games with guys or really doing anything at all with them that could be considered competitive. Nothing bums out a guy and ruins a budding interest faster than being beat at something. I STILL face that pressure. What I do now is refuse to compete with my guy friends. I've never had it be a good thing when I beat them. But now I HAVE met one or two guys who actually admire a girl for being kickass at most things. It's still extremely rare, that trait, though.
Okay, next comes college. Then work. I talked a little bit about the things I see at work on another thread recently. Actually I have to GO to work now and can't continue this. But for me the problem started way before you are thinking. For me the problem is that society finds it inconvenient and unpleasant that there should be such a person as me. Well, since there IS, then we have to work out a way to deal with that, don't we? <laughs> And we are doing just that.
[ October 23, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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posted
I agree with ana kata from A to Z. I had to suffer from that sort of things too. Because I was good in math and I lked to climb trees, I was treated as a strang hybrid, and told that that wasn't things to do for a girl. Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Wow aka, what a great post! I agree with you completely (not that that's terribly surprising).
For the record, I've always found intelligence attractive--when I was still looking for a partner, intelligence (as well as kindness) was an absolute must. Accomplishment is fine, although I've never listed it as something I've looked for in a partner. I have no problem at all with getting beaten at games. Why would you want to play with somebody you were always assured of beating? Give me a challange any day!
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
In my experience, the only kind of discrimination that exists is against Latinos. I don't find that African Americans are discriminated against, nor Asians, nor women, nor gays.
Just Latinos.
Latinos should get affirmative action, but we don't need it for anybody else.
posted
The problem is, what are you going to about all this? Unlike racism, getting people not to think of themselves in terms of 'girl' and 'boy' is not really an option. And as long as people place so much importance on their gender, which they almost certainly always will, characteristics will become associated with those categories.
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posted
But these could be general catagories. Like : Women can be pregnant and not men. That's what I mean with my differences/equality thing. We can be different, but equal.
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
This is not a one-sided issue. For every example a woman can give of a behavior or activity that they were discouraged from because it was for boys and not for girls, a man can give the converse example.
There are a lot of guys that are good at accepting and even embracing these gender "rules" that are thrust upon them. There are also a lot of women that are good at accepting, and even embracing, the "rules" that are thrust upon them. But there are a lot of people who have problems with acceptance.
I believe that at least some of what goes on among children is a natural and largely unavoidable result of the child's growing awareness of gender. In other words, it is natural for little boys and girls of a certain age to be suspicious of each other and maybe even a little hostile at times. (This hostility also goes both ways.)
posted
But Ic, school teachers ask for discrimination. I mean, they knew what they were getting into when they chose the profession, neh?
*flees*
*pokes head back in long enough to say*: ak, I agreed with your post. Except for the dresses -- they've never bothered me. And there are expectations of boys that are unhealthy as well.
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the biggest problem i can see is that some females want special treatment from males and that special treatment sets up a standard. this is one of those tow-sided deals, special treatment= needs. by wanting to be treated differently than males, females set themselves up to be protected.[/QUOTE]
sometimes differences call for different treatment-like pregnancy. Or walking home alone. Girls get raped a lot more than guys, and are a lot more risk walking home alone. So they ask guys to walk them home-different treatment because they have a danger factor that guys don't.
quote: that is why when when a crim is commited against a female, it is a lot bigger deal then when it is commited against a male. and in the military, a female is injured, the news is all over it and she is automatically a hero. but she did nothing more than any of her males counterparts in the military. she signed up, went through training and that was that.
that's not her fault is it? She didn't ask for the news coverage-so it's more of news people seeing a good story and playing it for all it's worth than a female asking for special treatment. The news loves a good story, and while part of this one may have been because she was female, the news will always unfairly single people out to be heros because it makes a good story. Your harms are non unique.
quote: at this point u may fail to see my point, but here it is, females want to be treated the same as males, but they also want benifits solely because they are female.
I said this above and I'll say it again. People are different, and so need different treatment. Girls want to be equal-but we don't want to be putting ourself at risk in matters when simple precautions help. And yes, some girls expect too much just because they're girls. Some guys expect too much just because they're guys. That's the nature of people. It's pretty foolish to only see one group doing it and complain about it while completely ignoring the others
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
You know what, I agree with what anna kate said (well, not from experience), but I'm going to sort of stick up for the other side.
Man and women are different. Girls have been and are getting screwed over in lots of ways, but, you know what, boys are too. There is a feminization in our culture. There have been a few people talking lately about the war on boys and I wholeheartedly agree. In the home, in school, in the media, boys (and men) are taught that we never grow up, that the way we do things is wrong. The link to the book above makes this case better than I can, maybe. We're supposeed to be the Tim Taylors of the world (from Tool Time), who can't do a thing right, who are perpetually immature, who are always, always wrong anytime they disagree with their wife.
Women are taught that, while they have to wink at our pretentions and sometimes let us indulge in our silly wants, they are justified in believing that they are the superior sex. There was a mini-scandal a little while back about a greeting card that said on the front "Men are always complaining about how we're smothering them..." followed by "Personally, I think that if you can hear them talk, you're not pressing down hard enough on the pillow."
I hate to see relations between the sexes come down to a partisan, zero-sum game, where gains for one translates into losses for the other. I think what we have is even worse than that, where losses for the one side is seen as de facto gains for the other.
I'm concerned that girls are discouraged from math and science. I'm concerned that they don't get as much attention in the classroom as boys. But, you know, I'm also really concerned that boys fail shcool much more often than girls, that many more of them drop out, that many fewer of them go to college. I am concerned that teenage girls are highly succeptible to eating disorders. I am also concerned that there has been a strong effort in the media towards pushing the idea of a metrosexual as the standard role that a man should fill.
Both sexes should be strong; strong in their commonalities and strong in their differences. This shouldn't be a war, it should be a family.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Never had much of that 'girls shouldn't do X' or 'that's a boy's toy', but then again, I didn't do much playing with so-called 'boy's toys'. Most of my childhood was spent with a book, which doesn't necessarily make you seem like the most feminine person ever, which is another facet of the problem.
If you're not feminine all the time, don't wear dresses or indeed, even care much at all about what you wear, you're immediately branded (and forgive my usage of the word) a 'dyke'.
I don't know much about being discriminated against for being a girl. I guess I like to think of all the crap that kids put me through in my younger days as non-gender-related (when for all I know, that could be it. Wait. Was it. Yep. If I were a guy they probably wouldn't have made fun of me... Case in point my brother, who has the exact same build as I... Sheist. This sucks)
Anyway, All I know is that I'm starting to get tired of everyone thinking I'm a lesbian just because I don't jump all over every guy I think is hot and start giving him the googly eyes.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I'm all about equality of the sexes but what bothers me is when it becomes hypocritical. For example, many "men only" gyms have been forced to become coed. However, there are many new "Women's only" gyms. A climbing gym that I had gone to started a "Women's only" night..so I asked when "Men's only" night is. Of course there isn't one.
This kind of thing just bugs me.
Posts: 512 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
My most troubling experience with blatant sexism was when, as a grad student, I would ask a question in class, which would then be dismissed as unimportant by the professor. A guy from the back row would ask the same question, minutes later, and get a detailed and interested response from the prof.
There was one other woman in the room (philosophy classes at the upper levels seem to be mostly populated by men, although not so much as engineering). The same thing happened to her, and she ended up dropping the class.
I thought it might just be me, but the guys noticed it too. I'm still not sure what was going on.
The best (?) chill-environment experience was starting to work in the clinical setting as a med student. Wearing a simple set of scrubs post-call, I leaned against a computer while I was presenting a case on morning rounds. The attending physician interrupted me after oogling, joked that I looked like I was trying to sell the computer equipment (getting a laugh from the all-male rest of the team), and promptly asked someone else about my patient. (I know that this doesn't sound like much, but in the beginning, case presentations are the learning time, the only time you have to show your stuff. And I was being told, in no uncertain terms, that I had nothing more than decoration to offer this patient. That was a chill environment. Of course, I found a way to get through it, and of course, men experience comparable things -- but still, it stings, and it affected my learning.)
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Traveler, I agree that if they offer a "Women's Only" night, they should offer one for men as well. IF there is interest. And that may be the problem.
I know many women who prefer to exercise in women-only gyms to avoid being ogled (or having to worry about the possibility). Few men seem to have this concern. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think of myself as a feminist. This is because I firmly believe in equal rights and responsibilities between the sexes. Do I think that all people should be treated the same, independent of circumstances? No. It is ludicrous to say that women and men should always be treated the same. There are obvious and inescapable differences between them. But everyone should have the same opportunities.
However, I do get upset with some activists (be they about sex or race or sexual orientation or whatever) because I feel that many of the more extreme activists are less about equal rights and opportunity (or even just equality) than they are about superiority or punishment. And while some double standards are inevitable, mostly because of biology, some still drive me nuts.
Here's one that's almost guaranteed to make this thread blow up: porn. It irritates the heck out of me when I hear other feminists saying that it's alright for women to consume pornography but not men, because most women don't, because women use it for different reasons and in different ways, and because men have all the political power. Now, don't mistake me for saying that porn is either good or bad. I'm just saying that if your goal is equality, then if it's wrong for men to use porn, it's wrong for women to use it, too.
I am an ardent and adamant supporter of women's rights. And, politically speaking, men don't need advancement right now. But I do think that there are stereotypes on both sides. It bothers me tremendously how often I see movies, television shows, even commercials that take it as a given that men cannot be good and responsible parents.
I was having a conversation with my mom, a very strong feminist, a few months ago, about the differences between the political and business power of men and the social and domestic power of women. Her conclusion was that it was fair for women to feel and act superior to their husbands because it offsets the inequalities in the government and in the workplace. Now, I think that my mom is quite justified in feeling oppressed. After all, she owns her own business, which has exposed her to all sorts of difficulties that a man in the same situation probably wouldn't have encountered. But the kind of thinking that she displays is indicative of a problem, to my mind. The "you started it" mentality helps maintain the division between the sexes, and is equally valid (which is to say, invalid) when approached from either side.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: I know many women who prefer to exercise in women-only gyms to avoid being ogled (or having to worry about the possibility). Few men seem to have this concern
Actually...I know a number of guys that would prefer to go to a men's only gym because they are not in the best of shape and feel very self-conscious in front of these women.
It isn't that they are worried as much about being ogled as of being laughed at.
Posts: 512 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Translation: saxon has some great points there. Militant feminists who want reparations for the oppression are not doing either side any good.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: by wanting to be treated differently than males, females set themselves up to be protected. that is why when when a crim is commited against a female, it is a lot bigger deal then when it is commited against a male. and in the military, a female is injured, the news is all over it and she is automatically a hero.
I dont think it is the women who want it, but society trying to protect its means to develop as a species. I explain: one man is enough to fertilize thousands of female, so biologically speaking, men can be fewer, but a woman can only make one child at the time through a very slow and a bit dangerous process. So, to the human race, like to the animal species, it is more important to keep lots of female than men ( I hope this is not offensive). Besides, men are usually physically stronger than women, so they can protect them rather the other way round.
Posts: 34 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
"when I hear other feminists saying that it's alright for women to consume pornography but not men, because most women don't, because women use it for different reasons and in different ways, and because men have all the political power."
Saxon, I agree---I beleive degrades everyone who is involved and who watches it. BUt it has been around for thousands of years (I saw ancient Egyptian porn while visiting the Museum of Natural History in London).
Plus, the feminist argument that "women should be able to do this and men shouldn't be able to do the same thing" is ludicrous. That's female chauvanism. And I have to agree with just about everyone in saying men and women are different on many levels, yet were created equal and should be such. Unfortunately, there are so many nuances in that, it would be impossible to define that which is masculine and that which is feminine.
Posts: 463 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Wait a minute. I haven't seen a whole lot of examples of sexual inequality here. I've seen a lot of gender discrimination mentioned, I suppose, but ... well, look at this.
quote:"If you're not feminine all the time, don't wear dresses or indeed, even care much at all about what you wear, you're immediately branded (and forgive my usage of the word) a 'dyke'.
Hmm ... and what do people assume about a man who cares a lot about his appearance and his grooming? Dare I match you with the word "fag"? I daresay, that word is used a LOT more often against men than "dyke" is used against women.
quote:Most of my childhood was spent with a book, which doesn't necessarily make you seem like the most feminine person ever, which is another facet of the problem.
Yeah, and men who spend all their time indoors reading are considered really, really manly for doing so.
quote:For me it started when I was about 2 and my older brother taught me that girls don't have brains. I thought it was an anatomical fact.
That's a childhood prank, not part of some vast problem of gender inequality. The same exact thing could have been done by an older sister to a two-year-old boy.
That post goes on to describe how a boy didn't want to be friends with a girl because "girls are icky". Sheesh, and how many boys are welcome among groups of girlfriends, except as entertainment?
Sure, the sexes have a hard time understanding each other sometimes, and assaulting someone's gender identity is a really effective way to get that person down. But the level of anti-woman bias in our society today has been reduced to just about nil, while anti-man bias is on the rise. I think if we stop getting all worked up about this stuff RIGHT NOW, we can just about break even.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: So, back to school age. Guys mostly don't really go for girls who are accomplished and brilliant. I've known only a few guys who find intelligence and accomplishments attractive. There was enormous pressure to always sandbag when playing games with guys or really doing anything at all with them that could be considered competitive. Nothing bums out a guy and ruins a budding interest faster than being beat at something. I STILL face that pressure. What I do now is refuse to compete with my guy friends. I've never had it be a good thing when I beat them. But now I HAVE met one or two guys who actually admire a girl for being kickass at most things. It's still extremely rare, that trait, though.
ak:
I respect you, but this portion of you post bothered me greatly.
You claim to be fed up with sexism and stereotypes, but this whole paragraph is one giant stereotype. It's pretty offensive if you want me to be honest.
It can mean a few things: 1. You think most men really are blinded by competition (which is wrong in my experience). Most guys I know don't mind getting beaten by women. 2. You think guys really are intimidated by smart women, which is also false in my experience. 3. Or, you yourself have a problem with competition and you portray your issues on men. I'm not saying this is true, but it's possible. 4. Most of the guys you have romanitically pursued ended up being shallow, and you had no idea until things like you stated in your post started happening.
All of those things could be false. But, if I wanted to make a judgement on how true they are, your post in this thread wouldn't make it very hard to decide that one of them is true.
Posts: 354 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I have only met a few women in my life who found intelligence attractive in men, either, I might add Most of them seemed to be attracted to big trucks, verbal abuse, and arrogance.
I think smart, confident people are attracted to other smart, confident people, and nobody else is. Which can actually be an asset in the long term, though it can be really painful when you first discover the limited size of your dating pool.
[ October 23, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Right. I'm an intelligent, highly competitive woman, and I've never had a problem with scaring men away. To the contrary! Of course, my dating experience was in a pool of almost 100% my peers, at a good school, so I was never involved with a Tim Taylor-type man.
To say that almost all men are scared away by strong, intelligent women is to enforce the same stereotype that says men cannot be good husbands or parents. While you can find examples of such men in real life, their numbers aren't nearly as great as sitcoms would have you believe.
quote: To say that almost all men are scared away by strong, intelligent women is to enforce the same stereotype that says men cannot be good husbands or parents. While you can find examples of such men in real life, their numbers aren't nearly as great as sitcoms would have you believe.
Thank you Ayelar. That's exactly what I wanted to say. Posts: 354 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Well Icarus, I think all the men here (myself included) like to read. The proof of that is the very nature of this site. What's this site for again.... ?
quote: But the level of anti-woman bias in our society today has been reduced to just about nil
Geoff, this is not meant as a dig. And perhaps I am wrong. But I truly believe that only a man would say that. And I'm actually fairly surprised that you believe it. Your experiences must have been very different than mine.
quote: while anti-man bias is on the rise
Now this, sadly, I think is all too true.
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posted
Okay, perhaps "nil" was an exaggeration. But I do think it has gone from being sweeping and institutional to being more of a tendency of certain individuals. I would hardly say that the majority of men and American institutions are sexist today, the way they might have been fifty or a hundred years ago. And most modern examples of sexism are really quite mild and innocuous, stemming more from misunderstandings or clumsiness than from contempt.
[ October 23, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
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posted
Oh, and one more thing I never do is complain about sexism. Because people who do tend to get told, "sexism doesn't exist; it must be your own problem".
In this case I was relating some of my experiences that I thought Peter might be interested in. He seemed to be asking for a better understanding of what is going on.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
*Points to Geoff too* *Gives AK another big hug*
I have to admit, I've seen less examples of sexism against women than sexism against men. And almost all of both of those reactions were peer presure instead of institutionalizied things. Really the only examples that come to my mind is when one when a (female) worker at our school (whe was kitchen help, not a teacher) insisted that after being punched by a girl, the boy that punched back should be punished (and not the girl). The only other I can think of is my 5th grade teacher hitting on a couple of the girls in my class (big "Yuck!!!!" ). However, I also realize that I have not actually been a women ( ) and I have only worked at one college by myself in a lab and out on an all male work team (which was all male because not enough girls applied to put them on all the teams, not because they didn't let girls in).
Geoff, I assume that you and Anna Kate have had different experiences not so much because of location but time. AK, despite looking like she's 25 ( ) isn't 25, and I'm pretty confident that just in the last couple of decades we have made some big progress. I know when my Mom went to school (Computer Science major) she was definitly isolated. Not so much people telling her she couldn't or even shouldn't, but people who thought she was really werid because of it. And by the way, my mom is cool.
You seem happy lately. Is life treating you well? <beams at him>
Nah, the idea that sexism is a phenomenon of the past is another one people will say. <laughs> They do the same with racism and all the isms.
What's true is that things that don't affect a person directly seem unimportant if not non-existant to them. It's not anything bad, it's just how life works.
Those of us who are affected are always going to be the ones who are responsible for making things better. I try to do my part in my way. However, it IS nice when people, usually very smart people like Douglas Hofstadter, (but really any empathetic people can) sympathize and understand that it exists even though it doesn't affect them directly. The same is true of racism. Hanging out as I did for a while in a group of mostly black friends really opened up my eyes. Stuff would happen to them or be said to them that would NEVER have been said to me alone or to a group of white friends. It's an everyday occurrence, even an hourly one. It's the way things are.
So I'm not whining about sexism. A lot of people have things a lot worse than me. I go ahead and do what I feel I am called to do, regardless of naysayers. It's just a nice thing when people see what's happening and make an effort to change themselves. Lots of people just can't do that. Changing yourself is the hardest thing there is to do. Most people have to have themselves changed by their experiences and by the people around them. So I try to oblige there when I can as well.
Life is sort of hard, that way. It's learn or be taught, sometimes. I feel for all of the people caught up in life. Every one of us is in over our heads, when you think about it. <laughs> We're all just doing our best.
[ October 24, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
First, let me say that I know there is a ton of sexism against women, still. There are a lot of problems with equity in the economy, just as an example.
However, The backlash has been so severe that most men my age that I know think we are under attack. That being male is a Bad Thing culturally speaking. We're under constant ridicule from the media: Men are bad parents. All men think about is sex. Men don't have the same emotional sensitivity as women. Men get drunk and watch sports, while women try to solve problems. Etc. etc.
Over the last several decades, a lot of attention has been given to how we raise girls. We've been battling anorexia, and bulemia, while not noticing that teenage boys are in rougher shape then they've ever been. The same diseases are striking high school males, now, because we don't, as a society, value their contributions unless they are athletic. Ahnold is an idealized conception of what men should be... and this is no better then the conception of Julia Roberts as the ideal woman. How many men can attain that shape? Not very many... and its not even very healthy. I have a lot of image problems because, no matter how much I lift, my arms and chest are scrawny. At times, I've had very powerful biceps, being able to curl 65% of my body weight... but you'd never know it from looking at me, and that causes a lot of mental problems for me, because society tells me that a man without a deep chest and without rippling arms isn't "Sexy." Notice a similarity to what a lot of girls my age have problems with?
Basically, I'm saying that men are under attack, right now, and as a society, we're mostly ignoring the problems men face. We're so concentrated on female problems, and the definite inequalities and sexism that occur against women, that we've forgotten that there are two sexes. We've allowed the pendulum to shift against men in our attempt to rectify the situation concerning women.
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