quote:It seems to degrade the tradition. Rather like it would ruin the spirit of christening to run around splashing holy water on each other and shrieking how Christ just saved you.
A ritual has exactly as much meaning as you inject into it. If you let other people's actions degrade a ritual in your eyes, that is your problem and not theirs.
For that matter, I'd question your reasons for investing that meaning in it in the first place. But that's a topic for another day.
quote:What valuable contribution has been made to Hatrack by endless threads of emoticons or (((hugs)))?
It appears that they've given a fair bit of satisfaction to the people who post on them.
quote:Somehow, I'm stuck in the method of thinking that in terms of Hatrack, one Moose is worth two thousand emoticon-users.
Well sure. In terms of contributions to Hatrack, he's probably worth a couple thousand of me if it comes to that. Am I to wait till my 2000000th post to make a landmark thread? (Assuming, of course, that I were interested in making a landmark thread.)
posted
When I realized that I was approaching two landmarks (for me, that is - four years, 1000 posts), I was apprehensive. I had been around for four years! Four! I'd seen the tides of Hatrack change immensly, I'd been around for a lot of the big events that people now invoke in a legendary sense, and I didn't know too many of this so-called "subset community." I may or may not have contributed a lot to the Hatrack community in general. I don't really know. But I put up a landmark anyway. I wanted to let people know that I existed, that I was special, and that something important was happening to/for me. That being, of course, an extended duration here. Since I put my landmark thread up, I've begun reading some of the new ones, and sometimes I agree with Lalo: sometimes it does seem to degrade the [Moose-]tradition.
I don't know what the answer to this is or if there even is an answer. I am, however, firmly in the same routine as EG: If I don't recognize the name, I don't read the thread. Maybe that is an answer. Maybe there are other, better ones. But that's the one that works best for me. Is it "elitism"? I'm not sure about that. I suppose I'm not taking the time to get to know this "subset." We just might not have the same interests (ie, I've never even been in the last post thread... any of the various incarnations of them... ::shudder:: ) and that's why I don't recognize the names. But that's alright. That's what makes a community. If everyone knows everyone else, where on earth do threads like this come from? Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:It's pretty ridiculous for you to suggest that there needs to be some sort of standard of meaningfulness achieved before someone ought to post a landmark thread.
As I've already stated. I believe the ultimate goal of this thread is not to deter people from making landmark posts if they don't live up to my personal expectations, but to give them something to think about when they decide they want to.
It seems like you only read my first post and reacted from there. Did you read anything inbetween?
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I don't see not reading landmark threads that don't interest you as elitist. (Well, unless your stick your nose in the air and proclaim, "I'm surely not reading anything posted by that buffoon!" ) Choosing to skip any thread that doesn't interest you is only reasonable.
It's the "those people don't have a right to post landmark threads where DECENT Hatrackers have to see them" attitude that I see as elitist.
I find it very ironic -- and extremely troubling -- that some of the loudest proponents of this sort of view are ordinarily loudly against discrimination.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:A ritual has exactly as much meaning as you inject into it. If you let other people's actions degrade a ritual in your eyes, that is your problem and not theirs.
For that matter, I'd question your reasons for investing that meaning in it in the first place. But that's a topic for another day.
No? Then you don't believe that, say, lighting a menorah every day of the year subtracts from its importance during the Hannukah season?
While landmark threads are by no stretch of the imagination a religious ceremony, they did have a touch of the deeply personal that I enjoyed. Now that they're a fad among teenyboppers and the teenybopper-minded, it's rather depressing to open a landmark thread knowing your hopes will be dashed.
I'm not suggesting we put in any kind of law declaring that landmark posts must be this important and this personal, but it'd be nice if everyone knew -- as they apparently don't -- that landmark threads were meant to serve as landmarks.
quote:It appears that they've given a fair bit of satisfaction to the people who post on them.
Heh. So they have. Though, if I may suggest it, people who are so easily satisfied by their ability to post pretty colored circles would likely be easily entertained by most shiny or brightly colored objects. No need to litter a forum with idiocy.
But then, I've more or less promised I'd retire from this argument. While the board's growing more idiot-friendly, I'll just look for meaningful threads amongst the crap. Rather like trying to find truth among the stories at Fox News.
quote:Well sure. In terms of contributions to Hatrack, he's probably worth a couple thousand of me if it comes to that. Am I to wait till my 2000000th post to make a landmark thread? (Assuming, of course, that I were interested in making a landmark thread.)
Let's not go fishing for compliments. You know damn well -- or should, at any rate -- that I'm a big fan of your existence. You were right, this Delgados CD isn't bad. In the last book thread I made, based on your suggestion I now have two "steampunk" books sitting in my apartment that I haven't yet been able to dive into. Hell, your recommendations aside, it's always been a pleasure to read your opinion. You're an intellectual, Nick, and it's an honor to know you to whatever extent you express yourself on Hatrack.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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PC, you just suffer from a slightly midler version of the Leto-Lalo Syndrome - you often sound caustic without intending to actually attack people.
I agree with you that I'd like to see people think more about posting landmark threads and maybe this thread will have done it. If not, live and let live, huh?
As someone who posts rather irregularly throughout any given week, I often have to go searching on page two for something I was discussing 4 or 5 days before. It's not that hard, really.
Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Funny thing is, Eddie, you're so desparate to find intellectuals around here... But you're not one yourself. Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
PC- I was meaning to convey mild exasperation with the eye rolling and not sarcasm. Though I wouldn't go so far as contempt. It didn't quite call for the wallbash either. I was trying to convey that I found your comments (about some fictional person's landmark) a wee bit mean spirited.
If it conveys contempt, I say we draw and quarter the thing. I guess the monkeys might have been good.
I really avoided smileys before it became a matter of exercising my free speech.
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Glad to hear it though - it does show that I've finally managed to talk at your level. It was a long way down but I got there.
Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
That's what you call a burn? Pff. And once more you prove that Australia was formed by the rejects of, heh, England. You know your ancestors were pretty low on the food chain for that status.
Go back to school, Kangaroo Jack. Catch an alligator or something.
That's right. I went there, girlfriend. What you gonna do? Throw a boomerang at me? Eh? Eh?
posted
Okay, I'm probably gonna end up editing that one. But jesus, EG, you gotta give me some material to work with. Your "zinger" didn't even make sense in response to what I said. We get it, you march to your own drummer, but that's pathetic.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: Okay, I understand what you're saying now. I still disagree with it. It may be a reason why someone may do it, but I don't know if it's a good reason.
Of course it isn't. What exactly, do you disagree with? That people use landmarks to introduce themselves? They obviously do. I don't think it's a bad reason, but I wouldn't write one for that.
[ November 25, 2003, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
The fact that you didn't get it is precisely the point, Lalo. Sheesh.
I'd be happy to give you an alligator or a kangaroo but man, that stuff you do with them - you know that's illegal, right?
Posts: 2945 | Registered: Apr 2000
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Intellectuals can be idiotic for fun, but can idiots like you be intellectual? We all you know you try Lalo. Keep at it. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
And hey, hey, EG, let's not go into the "legality" of things, okay? I'm just saying God gave kangaroos those pouches for a reason.
But alligators, damn. What do you people DO over in Australia? Are your lil' Aussies so short you're confident about dangling them around alligators? What, the lil' boomerangs fit between the teeth?
I gotta say, it's getting easier and easier to believe you're descended from a reject of England.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Uh oh Lalo, we're both on the road to idiocy, after all, we both just posted posts with nothing but smilies. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
Gosh, Nick, my mistake. I thought I was already there.
Goodness, I hope I'm not making you an idiot through emoticons. I know you wanted to do it all by yourself.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
The thing is, landmark threads are now archived. So, are there any unwritten rules deciding which threads are to be archived, and which are not? I mean, is there a point in archiving a landmark thread consisting mostly of party-ing and role playing?
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Good heavens, I really must check Hatrack more often. My name has been invoked in this thread many times by many people, and though it appears at least one of the posts has been deleted (though quoted), I think I got complimented a couple times. Compliments for Moose -- there really should be a separate archive for those.
Anyway, I've been of at least two (usually more) minds on the landmark thread issue, and as I recall there have been a couple of threads about it in the past. I'm not gonna search them out, because I may not think the same thing now that I did then anyway.
I thought my first landmark was pretty good. I felt better having written it, and others felt better having read it. A bunch of good ones by several other folks followed it. Then some seemed more a "No, really, I am part of this community, see?" And then people started "following the tradition," but didn't really know what the tradition was because they weren't there when it started, and things continued to metamorphose, and at an even faster rate.
They've been all over the field since then. Some have been newsy at best, and some evoke powerful emotions, at least for me. My judgement of them is certain to be subjective, as is everyone else's, so I'm not declaring anything here other than my opinions -- opinions with which nobody is forced to agree.
When Mrs. Card first contacted me and Strider about archiving the landmark threads, some of the things she said:
quote:I love them too and I think they are a vital part of what makes Hatrack a good community.
But, landmark threads are something special. We loved it when Pop started them and are pleased that they have been embraced.
. . . [the thread] could be saved and read and be a wonderful place for new Hatrack members to get to know old ones.
Part of my reply:
quote:I guess my concern (well, not my concern, but what I can see as a possible concern others may have) is what constitutes a landmark. I've been adding pretty much whatever people call a landmark, even though some of them are not personal histories of any sort. However, I suppose there are few enough of those that erring on the "keep it" side shouldn't make much of a difference.
And her response to that:
quote:What constitutes a landmark thread is tricky -- but I'm with you that I'd rather err on the side of caution. I don't want to set some certain "standard" that doesn't allow for others' creativity and desires. If somebody says it's their landmark thead -- then it is!
I still feel that way. If a person defines his or her post as a landmark, then I'm gonna add it to my list and later to the archive. I've asked a couple times, since although the word "landmark" was in the title, there wasn't really anything landmarky about them. And until Kristine changes her mind about what constitutes a landmark thread, I won't be changing my process.
But I understand and empathize with PC's original comments, as well as various opinions scattered throughout this thread. In trying to decipher my own feelings, I've come to a couple conclusions.
One, that pride thing again -- too many landmarks in the archive and mine gets lost in the shuffle. I can't bump it any more. I can take solace in the fact that it's thread #000001 in the archive, but to whom will that matter? And because they're stored by last post on the thread, I'm not at the end of the archive, either -- just stuck in the middle. Pretty soon it won't even be on the first page, and my only hope will be the monthly revival of the list thread I keep updating.
Two, someone could come to Hatrack out of nowhere, and decide to read some landmarks. Whose would they read, and more importantly, what would that tell them about Hatrack? I don't want it to be that we're a pack of star-farmers. (Learned that term from someone here... for those who don't know, there are apparently places out there where increased post count results in more stars by one's name, thus people post for the sole purpose of gaining stars. The concept was mentioned in this thread, but not the term.)
One of the most honoring things ever said to me was in relation the landmark phenomenon. I received an e-mail from another Jatraquero talking about a landmark post, in which I was told:
quote:That elusive sense of community that I think we succeed in having rests on the presence of a few very special people, and you're definitely one of them. It doesn't even seem like you need to try; you just casually build community as you go.
Yes, I'm boasting in even mentioning it. But my hope is that landmarks will help bring about that elusive sense of community, and that the landmarks can serve as some of the building blocks of that community. And I plan to remain a member of this community, landmarks or no, smilies or no, fluff or no.
And I'll try not to get all crotchety as I get older.
posted
I totally agree with you, Pop. I'd never posted at a forum before this one, but I've seen others. They scare me.
I realize that it's "just a forum", but I'd like for it to be more of a community. I know I see it as one. I like that by the time we decide to meet each other in person, we don't even think twice.
I think that the ones who are irritated by recent issues are the ones who see it as a community...and get offended by those treating it as "just a forum". But I think that as long as we're just a forum, and not any sort of democracy with any rules, it's something we have to deal with.
I think the "community" crowd will still be here when the "just a forum" crowd is bored and gone.
As far as a solution to the archiving of the landmark posts goes, I'd be for some sort of waiting period to have your thread archived. I think that if you can't stick around for six months after you post it, you probably don't care whether or not it is.
And is date-of-last-post the only way to sort them?
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Notice in my landmark thread that I DID admit I was mostly a fluff poster. Yet people are still complaining that I posted a landmark.
I feel I owe an explaination as to why I avoid the serious discussions. I don't feel like I know myself, what I believe, or what I think well enough to debate it yet with other people. I am also a very shy person, and I don't feel confident enough to discuss things with people. I have gotten much more comfortable around here because I posted on fluff threads. I have posted on serious discussion threads, and will will post on more as I get used to being here. When I DO post in discussions, I am serious about it.
Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Eruve, this isn't really about you anymore specifically, and more of a general debate about when people should post landmarks. So don't feel like you have to defend yourself, because it's OK for people to have different opinions.
And I think you're great.
By the way, though, it is not necessary to debate in the "serious" threads. You can also ask questions. In this case, the threads would even be serving a purpose, because they would be helping you to hone your own opinions and examine issues you might not have examined before. And somebody coming into one of those threads who does not already feel like the have the corner on Truth, who is open and trying to learn and understand more, would be a breath of fresh air.
Don't get me wrong. I at least read some of the serious threads, even if I don't post there. And I didn't neccesarily mean "debate", I think I used the wrong word. More like "discuss". And I still feel akward posting in the serious threads. Partly because I have a hard time explaining what I mean.
Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
There are a lot of threads that fall in-between "fluff" and "serious discussion". Probably about 90% of them. Just step in and talk. Unless it's an abortion, homosexuality, NAMBLA, or PC/Apple debate, nobody's going to bite your head off.
Except Leto. He has a medical condition that requires him to ingest a certain number of heads each month.
That said, I think a lot of people are just irritated because landmark posts have recently become a big part of the community. People post long threads telling about their lives and who they are (or, in my case, something definitive of who they are). I mean, we have separate threads asking why we came to Hatrack, and a separate thread for hugs. Landmarks have become something beyond an introduction thread. Mind you, we have those, too.
No doubt that there a dozen threads on the first page that say less and deserve less attention than yours does, but the term "Landmark" is something we hold high standards for, and we try to keep the term from being tossed around...usually by bitching.
It's what we do best. Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Hey, a lot of us have trouble posting in serious threads. For my part, I've been here long enough to know which posters have the same views as I do. Without fail I can count on these posters to come in and say what I think far better than I ever could. I pretty much limit myself to asking questions or telling people to cool off. Every forum needs a self-appointed voice of reason Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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You do casually build community. It's wonderful, and needed, and we are all richer for it.
---
I don't know about landmarks. I think I am approaching something HUGE - and I promised to post a landmark, but I just don't know that I can.
The biggest problem: To be signifigant, it needs to be about things that have affected me strongly. If I'm not over it, it's too painful to talk about. If I am, then it's over and done with and I don't want to beat a dead horse. If it's good, it's too good to share.
I have had one inadvertant landmark post, and I suppose a real one could discuss that event and what happened to/by as a result, but I can't yet. Considering privacy issues, I'm not sure I ever could.
I talk about myself so much in general that I hardly need to create a thread devoted especially to it. I'd do the "compliments to everyone" thread, but I'm deathly afraid I would miss somebody.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I agree with pretty much everything Papa Moose says. Ever. Even if he's wrong--I figure the odds are with me. In fact, I wish I could be more like him.
casually building community . . . wow! Whoever wrote that sure can turn a pretty phrase! Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Eruve, I hope you know my post wasn't directed at you. I had read your landmark, and added it to my list, but I didn't keep reading all the replies (my time is limited lately, as I've explained a couple of places), so I didn't realize you thought people were talking about you specifically. I wasn't. I'm talking about things that happened last year -- that's right, I'm one of those crotchety oldbies. I specifically left off names because as I said above, each person needs to (and will) come to his/her own conclusion.
Anyway, I stand by my statement that it is up to the person posting to determine how and when (if ever) to write a landmark. I was just expressing my vision, and leaving it up to others whether or not that vision was worth pursuing.
posted
Well, there's a lot I could say, but let me just focus on what I think is the crux of the matter:
quote:Let's not go fishing for compliments. You know damn well -- or should, at any rate -- that I'm a big fan of your existence. You were right, this Delgados CD isn't bad. In the last book thread I made, based on your suggestion I now have two "steampunk" books sitting in my apartment that I haven't yet been able to dive into. Hell, your recommendations aside, it's always been a pleasure to read your opinion. You're an intellectual, Nick, and it's an honor to know you to whatever extent you express yourself on Hatrack.
I don't know if you were serious about the fishing for compliments thing, but either way: see, the thing is, I'm not aware of any of this. I do take notice of a few people who strike me as being particularly admirable (intellectually, ethically, etc.), and of course a few who strike me as being particularly contempible, but I don't generally notice what other people think of me, because I don't really think of this is as a community.
To me, this is "just" a forum, by which I mean that it's a place where I can put forth my opinions, read other people's, and discuss the lot of them. It has no meaning for me beyond that, but it does have meaning in and of itself, particularly because of the intelligence and thought that goes into some—not all or most, but a significant enough proportion—of those posts. That's a valuable, worthwhile thing.
Full disclosure: this is far from the only forum I go to, and there is one which is, to me, more than "just" a forum. I know the people there, I've talked to them extensively on AIM, and I do care about them beyond what they post on threads. Still, there are some people on that forum who aren't integrated to that extent, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's fine. We don't really have any traditions there, but if we did, I wouldn't mind if people chose to use that tradition without being as involved as the people who started it. It doesn't hurt anybody, and to suggest that it does and that people shouldn't do it (yes, I realsie no one's trying to make it a law, but is is a recommendation) unless they're as fanatical about the forum as the leading lights are is simply rude to the people who post casually and are perfectly content with that, but wish to use that tradition for their own innocuous purposes.
Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
A bit of advice... If I don't know you yet, I normally don't read your landmark post. I suspect others do the same. Hence, it's probably a waste of time to write one too soon after joining Hatrack just because you want to do one.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Well, this thread at least got me off of my electronic butt and I started writing my landmark that I've had an idea of doing for a while in Word. It's about a particular off-beat subject which I am going to explore in depth. So I'll probably end up with a couple rewrites and I have no idea when I'll finish it.
But at least this discussion has inspired me slightly.
quote: Let's not go fishing for compliments. You know damn well -- or should, at any rate -- that I'm a big fan of your existence. You were right, this Delgados CD isn't bad. In the last book thread I made, based on your suggestion I now have two "steampunk" books sitting in my apartment that I haven't yet been able to dive into. Hell, your recommendations aside, it's always been a pleasure to read your opinion. You're an intellectual, Nick, and it's an honor to know you to whatever extent you express yourself on Hatrack.
Who was this addressed too? Were there posts deleted? Is there another Nick? I'm horribly confused.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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