posted
I would like to think I could be civil and polite to anyone whatsoever, that anyone in the whole world could feel confident they would get respectful, civil treatment from me. Yet are there things a person can do to forfeit the expectation of civility? For instance, if in the past someone has returned my kindness and civility with curses, insults, abuse, belittlement, disrespect, and so on, should they still have a right to expect me to behave politely and kindly to them in return?
Is having anything whatsoever to do with someone after they've shown repeatedly that they will act this way toward you unwise? Certainly it reinforces them in a bad pattern of behavior, one which will lead to their misery and that of any who come under their sway. Also, it is repugnant to you, of course. Nobody I know finds it pleasant to be abused.
There's a story of the Prophet Mohammed that I love. Apparently he was accustomed to walk a certain way through the streets of his town, and there was an old woman, as it happened, who would jeer and insult him every day as he passed. It was a regular thing with her. She would scream epithets and spit at him and so on, every single day as he walked by her house. Then came a day once when she was not in her accustomed place. The Prophet grew worried about her, knocked on her door, and found that she had become deathly ill. She was such a mean old woman that nobody around her could abide her, so none of her neighbors or family was with her to care for her.
The Prophet, when he saw that, took care of her and looked after her and gradually nursed her back to health. The woman was astonished and grateful for his kindness, and her heart was changed.
There is a deep conflict inside me over how to respond to people who try to bully me. People who bully others raise my wrath like nothing else. Watching someone hurt someone smaller and weaker than themselves pushes every button I have and fills me with rage. I can't stand by and watch that without stepping in. Hopefully my rage will be under control, but it will be there underneath whatever action I take to stop that situation from happening. It is the impetus which overrides any fear I might feel, and lets me do what I think is right.
However, when people try to bully me, my own self, well, I am strong. I am not weaker than anyone at all, except for perhaps physically. Someone who tries to do that is only making an error in judgement about me. So how should that case be treated? Where is the line between following the Prophet and caring for the old lady, and enabling and reinforcing an abusive person in their incorrect method of interacting with others?
I have found that bullies are always cowards. They always back down when faced with someone who is willing to resist them. They want only easy prey. They have no interest whatsoever in risking their own precious hides, no. I also know that you can't change another person's heart for them. It is they and they alone who make that choice.
I remember Jean Valjean stealing the Bishop's candlesticks, and the Bishop said, "Friend, if you were in need why did you not ask? You didn't need to steal." And his heart was changed.
Again, there is a story of Krishna in the forest of Vrndavana, and the thief thinking, "That little boy is dressed in jewels every day by his mother and goes out to play. If I could only get close to him I could steal all his jewels and be rich." So he worked and followed what the teacher said and eventually made it into the forest to the presence of Krishna. And Krishna saw his heart and teased him, saying, "Would you like me to give you one of my jewels? Ah, but my mother would be cross with me if I lost them. Perhaps I shouldn't." The thief got closer and closer and then Krishna looked him in the eyes and knew him utterly to the bottom of his being, so he laughed and said, "Here, take them all." In that moment the thief was purified and his eyes were opened and he fell at Krishna's feet in worship and his heart was thereafter changed.
Christ said we must walk two miles. How do we do that in a way that makes the world better rather than worse?
[ November 28, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anne Kate, I find there is a distinction between being civil and being stupid.
You can remain civil to someone while still stating -- quite clearly -- that you are offended by their behavior and will no longer choose to communicate with them or condone their actions. I have, in the past, civilly informed people that I am determined to oppose them; I see nothing wrong with this.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom, after politely telling them you are no longer interested in talking to them, and explaining why, (and of course being treated to abuse and death threats and other nonsense, as a result), then if they speak to you again to ask an ordinary question, say, would you think it would be the right thing to just ignore them completely?
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd be really interested to hear anyone's opinion on this. It is a question upon which I have been confused for all of my life. I seek the wisdom of hatrack.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Let me get this straight, you're confused about whether you should expect people to be civil to you, and if they're not, whether it's within the bounds of propriety to ignore them?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: People who bully others raise my wrath like nothing else. Watching someone hurt someone smaller and weaker than themselves pushes every button I have and fills me with rage. I can't stand by and watch that without stepping in. Hopefully my rage will be under control, but it will be there underneath whatever action I take to stop that situation from happening. It is the impetus which overrides any fear I might feel, and lets me do what I think is right.
Anne Kate, I think I understand you here. In my humblest of opinions, I also think that it is noble and heroic of someone to stand up for someone who is being bullied and can't protect or stand up for themselves. I think wrath and also many possible actions could be justified in situations like this.
quote:Where is the line between following the Prophet and caring for the old lady, and enabling and reinforcing an abusive person in their incorrect method of interacting with others?
The Christian point of view would say "How did Christ treat those who persecuted and crucified Him?" So no matter how awful someone acts towards us, we should continue to treat them well. In my hear, I think that this is the right way to be. But. This thought serves to make me feel guilty and like I can't possibly be good enough because I DO get pissed off at people who treat me badly and I DO sometimes retaliate.
Then there's the "just walk away" tact (which is the one I hold with the most. I'm not sure if it's my 'better person' or just my coward that's coming out. ) This way, I escape everything. I escape the mean person, I escape having to continue being nice, and I escape feeling guilty for having NOT been nice. But. Is this the right thing to do? Hm. Not sure.
So I guess I'm not helping, but asking another question instead. I really do have strong beliefs about the way it SHOULD be, but I wonder if that's even a possibility and if sometimes it wouldn't be better to give people what they deserve now and then.
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that the question should be how losing civility toward a person (when they are bullying you or uncivil) effects *you*. It doesn't matter to me if a person is mean for no reason, but it does matter to me if I am mean back. Does that make sense?
If a person is consistently uncivil and mean-spirited, I do my best to avoid that person, and when I cannot, I keep conversations brief. That way I am right with myself, and that's what is important.
If a person is a bully towards me, I am, of course, upset and hurt; but then I end up feeling sorry for them because they are limiting themselves to such a small set of experiences.
I hope this made sense.
When other people are being bullied, of course, I stick up for them. For the most part, I try to remove the bullied from the sphere of the bully. *shrug*
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used to have a problem with bullies when I was very young. Maybe some of the things I learned can be helpful.
Fighting doesn't help. Bullies do what they do because they want to get a reaction out of their victims. Fighting with fists or words just makes you a new enemey, even if you win.
Try to serve them in some way. Don't help them pick on other people, but do somethng for them that is good and wholesome. I remember one experience where I turned a bully into a friend when I was still in grade school. I made a paper airplane for the boy that bullied me most. From that day forword he called me his friend. I didn't even have to make more paper planes for him. This strategy has helped me on many occasions, but I am the first to admit this tactic doesn't always work.
Move away from the situation. Sometimes you must completely remove yourself from the situation if they don't have any interest in leaving you alone. It is okay to avoid those that mean you harm. I have heard of situations, though, where it was impossible to get away.
If all else fails, try ignoring them. As stated above, bullies want a reaction. If you give them no reaction, there is no reinforcement for their behavior. I list this as a last resort because sometimes if they get no reaction for what they are doing, they will try something worse and worse until they do.
Never show a weakness by dropping to their level. Defend yourself by not becomming what they are. Of course, if you're defending someone else, that's a completely diferent story which I don't address here. Don't worry. Try to do the right thing and you'll be fine.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Situations vary. Sometimes some people ONLY respond to getting told off. Then they realize that you are not some wimp to be kicked around and respect you for standing up to them. Other people are cruel because their lives have been tough and the slightest bit of kindness melts their heart. Sometimes both at the same time work. Firmness and kindness. Then there are some people who are not even worth one second of your attention and should be ignored It all depends. Our actions do influence the world though. Treating everyone at least with respect does indeed make a difference.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would agree that there are things that a person can to "forfeit the expectation of civility". I also think, though, that just because their actions may not have shown themselves worthy of civility does not mean that one has a right to not be civil to them. Being nice or pleasant or civil to those who would take advantage of you does not necessarily mean that you will be bullied or that you are weak. I think that it is the stronger person who does not meet hostility with more hostility. I think that the point of being civil and kind is not to change the worlld - it is to change ourselves. While in the stories of Muhammed and Krishna and Les Miserables, the recipient of the kindness is changed by that kindness, that is not always the case. We cannot always change others behaviours or ideas through our actions or words. However we do mold our own character through our actions and words. If we can make ourselves better, we improve the only part of the world over which we have any control.
posted
Whether someone deserves civility or not should not determine whether or not you give it to them. Your civility is a reflection on you, not on them. And the question is, when is it best for YOU to be civil?
Or, more accurately, when isn't it best for YOU to be civil? Because it seems to me that there's no case where you benefit from being uncivil. You lose nothing by being civil towards someone who being uncivil towards you. But bullies are, like everyone else, potential friends. Be uncivil with them and you lose that potential, not to mention some of your dignity.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
Stormy, I do expect everyone to be civil and polite to me, but when they don't... when they return my kindness with abuse and insults and disrespect, the question I'm asking is do I still owe them MY civility?
To clarify, I'm not thinking of being rude to them but trying to decide if I should just ignore them and not respond to them in any way.
I'm really astonished to hear Law Maker's experience with bullies because mine has been almost the exact opposite of that. I wonder if there are different sorts of bullies, or something? In my experience with bullies in school, refusal to fight back was seen as weakness and cowardice. Being kind to them was viewed as pandering. Ignoring them just incited them. Fighting back was the only thing that worked, but it worked incredibly well. In other words, you didn't have to be a good fighter, or even to win the fight, or inflict much damage. They were always and only interested in picking on people who did not fight back.
This situation is somewhat different. This is not a school type bully but a one-time friend who has a problem with being abusive to those around him. For a long time just ignoring him whenever he acted that way, and waiting and talking to him later did the trick. However, it never stopped, it just eased up until the next time. Finally I realized there is no basis for a friendship there ever. The abuse is not going to change, and he doesn't want to change. I gave up on trying to be his friend.
I explained this to him, and told him why, but he still talks to me. So I'm ignoring him.
If there were something I could do to make things better, I probably should do that, even though I would prefer at this point if this person just went away and I never had to talk to them again.
Does there come a time when you should just give up on someone and just cease to contend with them?
[ November 29, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
ana kata, I think such times do come. With some people, trying harder to maintain a civil relationship with someone who is pathological in personality just brings more ill into the world. It's hard to say when it will go one way and when the other, but once the person in question begins to unmake you successfully, then it's probably a good idea to consider more closely the cold shoulder.
quote:In my experience with bullies in school, refusal to fight back was seen as weakness and cowardice. Being kind to them was viewed as pandering. Ignoring them just incited them. Fighting back was the only thing that worked, but it worked incredibly well.
Well... I'd say no. Fighting seemed to work very poorly. It seemed to be what the bullies wanted anyway, it tended to get everyone involved in bigger trouble, and most of all it tended to cause feuds. It was almost universally the people who fought back the most who seemed to have the most trouble, and who seemed to end up angry and frustrated all the time.
Refusal to fight back, on the other hand, could be interpretted as a number of different things, usually depending on the way it was done and who did it. Done right, it's the most effective method.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Tom, after politely telling them you are no longer interested in talking to them, and explaining why, (and of course being treated to abuse and death threats and other nonsense, as a result), then if they speak to you again to ask an ordinary question, say, would you think it would be the right thing to just ignore them completely?"
Yes. However, let's face it: you and I are not only idealists, but also busybodies.
It's very hard for us to believe that any people are irredeemable, and even harder for us to remember not to answer innocent questions; our noses itch when somebody asks something we can answer.
I've fallen into that trap before, with people I've "ignored;" they'll post like human beings for a while, will ask questions or bring up topics I find interesting, and it's not long before we're back to talking -- at which point they go all psychotic again.
So, in such cases, I have ALWAYS regretted talking to someone I resolved to ignore. I know it's human nature to believe in second -- or third, or fourth -- chances, but it's not always worth it.
(BTW, this isn't a passive-aggressive attack on another Hatracker, is it?)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
ak, I think I have a similar situation. I have a friend who takes advantage of the people around her (usually her friends) to the point of bullying. Last year, this got really bad; she was impossible to work with, she was becoming too self-centred, she was effectively stealing money and time from the people around her, and not giving anything back.
I wanted to talk to her, and so because I'm not a good verbal arguer or speaker, I sent her an e-mail. I told her how she was acting, how we all wanted to be her friend but were hurt by her use of us. I wrote this e-mail very carefully, appealing to all the sides of her nature that would listen. I was kind and civil, because I knew that anger would never make a difference. I would just cease being her friend.
She e-mail back once, defending herself, and I repeated what I said in the same civil but stubborn terms.
In real life we never actually talked about this but I did notice her making an effort, even if it was just around me, to be less like a bully and more like a friend.
I don't know whether this would work in your situation, but I thought it was similar, and so here it is. Good luck in your situation...
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: I've fallen into that trap before, with people I've "ignored;" they'll post like human beings for a while, will ask questions or bring up topics I find interesting, and it's not long before we're back to talking -- at which point they go all psychotic again.
posted
I guess if there were absolutely anything I could say or do that would actually help things, I would do that, even though at this point I'd much rather just never have to interact with or hear from this person ever again.
But kindness is met with more rudeness. Civility is met with disrespect. Concern is met with insults, and explanations of why I don't ever want to talk to him again are met with death threats. So I give up. I am just going to try not replying to anything he says to me and see if he will go away.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
If this is a person you unavoidably have contact with, I think continued civility is necessary.
I had to cut off someone who I felt to be a threat to my child. It was hard because she was a person who was very needy. I still feel ashamed about it sometimes, because God knows I am damaged goods myself. With respect to interactions on Hatrack: I see a lot of folks, so I imagine I do it too, get in a track of interaction where they write things that don't always make sense. I think the interaction is why I like coming here, though. I guess I could say I'm a disciple of C. Terry Warner's self-deception theory. The way out of self deception is to empathize with others and accept them. It is also possible to be deceived by using those we agree with as much as we attack those we disagree with.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I met another person recently who also seemed to believe that the fact that you have been kind to them in the past means you owe them something now.
A big strapping fellow had stopped by to ask if I needed yard work done a few times. Once I did get him to do some work and he did a good job but he was very bossy. He said he had gotten a welding job but he needed money to buy a helmet and another time it was welding gloves he needed. He only wanted cash, so he insisted that I make a trip out to the bank to get him some cash. A check was no good, even one he could cash at my bank for free, because he didn't have his ID with him, he said. He asked for something to drink and when I took him a pitcher out with koolade, and a glass, he asked if he could take the pitcher home with him when he was done, and I said yes if he would bring it back.
He came by a few more times, I asked how the welding job was going and he said he got laid off. He always knocked on the door very loudly and rang the doorbell multiple times. The last time he came I said I didn't have any cash and no time to go and get some and he was insistent. He said he would follow me so that I didn't have to come back home but I told him I wasn't going out that day, that I had work I had to do here.
He acted very miffed, then. I offered again to pay him with a check and he said insistently "No! I don't have my ID! I would have to go all the way back across town!" So I said I was sorry that I couldn't help him. To come back later. He asked if I would give him something to drink. I said he still had my pitcher from last time and where was it? He said it was at his house. So I said, please bring back my pitcher, and then I will give you something else to drink.
Three days later he came back and I still had no cash by then so I just didn't answer the door when he knocked and rang. He then tried to crank his car for a long time in my driveway. Someone across the street spoke to him and he said something about no gas being in there. I was thinking "oh, great" but thought I would wait and see if he could handle it on his own. After 3 hours of sitting in my driveway, he walked up the steps and again pounded on the door and rang the doorbell rapidly 10 times or so. I didn't answer. He then bounded back down the stairs, jumped in his van, fired it up and drove away.
The next day he came back and by then I'm getting a very unpleasant feeling about this guy. I answered and told him I wouldn't be needing him to do yardwork anymore, that I was getting a professional service. He acted very annoyed, and said I should have told HIM that! That HE could have been my regular service. I said I was getting some professional people, but thank you anyway. At this point he gave me a very level and sour look. Then he asked if he could have something to drink, some milk or something. I said no I didn't think so. He went down the stairs to his van and then came back up the stairs and knocked loudly and rang again. I didn't open the door this time. I yelled through it, "what?". He said "my battery is dead, will you give me a jump off?" I thought about it for about 20 seconds, then I said, "I think you'd better call the police or the road service for help with that. Do you want me to call them for you?" He said "No, that's okay, I will get the neighbor to help."
He and my neighbor pushed his van back out of my driveway and jumped it off. I kept a watch because I was interested to see what actually happened. I half expected him to jump in, fire up his van, and drive away as he had the day before. This time, though, he at least did go through the motions of jumping off the van, and it cranked right up. That was today.
Tonight when I got home from Mama's house, I noticed that he had thrown his empty chips bag down in my driveway. I picked it up and brought it in.
I believe that some people feel that once you have been kind to them, you owe them something. And they get very angry at you if you don't meet their expectations after that. I don't know how to handle people like that, except to tell them that I want nothing further to do with them.
I refuse to let people like this convince me that I should distrust people in general, or not be kind to someone who needs my help. It does really make me angry, though, when something like that happens. I'd like to know if there is a way to be kind to people without leaving yourself open to such things. Does anyone know?
[ December 01, 2003, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
So what with one thing and another, I think for a while at least I'd better take my advice to kat and become a kind girl with a loaded shotgun by her bed. Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes, Mike, it's gone far beyond an offer of yardwork into a sort of systemized intimidation campaign. I don't believe he really had car trouble either day. I think maybe men don't get this sort of thing. It seems to be something only women get treated to.
If he comes back I will tell him to go away or I am calling the police. If I hear anyone messing around my house at night or anything, I will shoot to kill, then call the police. If I wait until they arrive it might be too late. He seemed like a shady customer indeed. Why is he driving all over town repeatedly with no license on him, for instance?
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wanted to ask about something discussed earlier: how is snubbing someone not rude, even if you snub them using polite words? Is it civil only if you snub someone after they've been rude? Also, considering people have different definitions of what is rude or not, how do you discern who to treat as rude and snub while not ignoring others? And last, could the same rules be applied for regular daily life as in, say, an internet forum like this?
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
"I wanted to ask about something discussed earlier: how is snubbing someone not rude, even if you snub them using polite words?"
I believe it is polite to snub someone in two cases:
1) Something indescribably rude has just been said, and any acknowledgement of it would be embarrassing to everyone. In this situation, the polite response is to ignore it completely. (Note, however, that this is not my way; it's the Miss Manners recommendation, but I actually think it'll lead to heartbreak in the long run.)
2) You have told someone, in no uncertain terms, that you will not communicate with them if they persist in a given behavior -- and they do.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
But how are either of those polite, and not just a passive-aggressive rudeness? That's my question. I don't mean that someone being rude should be fed more ammo, but snubbing someone? That just seems a bit like fighting fire with self-righteous fire.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The goal of civility, IMO, is to minimize awkwardness. While it's awkward to have to ignore something, this is actually less awkward than the alternatives here.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I got out my grandfather's beautiful shotgun. It is a Browning, a special issue, and says it is one of fifty made. I played around with it and figured out how to load and unload it, how the bolt works, and the safety and firing mechanism. It's a semi-automatic, a beautiful weapon. I think granddad would be glad that it's being useful, but it's almost too pretty to shoot. I don't think I would dare to take it into the marsh and shoot birds with it. It might get wet or scratched.
I don't know if it's rude to snub someone, but I don't know what else to do if I've told someone politely that I don't want to speak to them again, and why, and they persist. As for the yardman/extortionist or anyone else caught messing around my house at night, I would suggest that it's not a safe thing to do. I certainly will shoot to kill, and let the police sort out the results.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm glad you have a neighbor who witnessed this guy's behavior.
Ignoring someone isn't passive aggressive. Pretending to ignore them but doing something else to hurt them is.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Do you mean like if there were some way to reiterate to them what the situation is, and impress upon them the seriousness of my intent, without actually speaking to them? I don't know if asking someone to leave you alone can be considered aggressive in any sense, passive or active. I think maybe "creative non-violent resistance" is the way I might think of it, instead.
[ December 01, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
) This way, I escape everything. I escape the mean person, I escape having to continue being nice, and I escape feeling guilty for having NOT been nice. But. Is this the right thing to do? Hm. Not sure.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
((((AK)))) He better not make me come down there and open a can of tiger woop a$$ on him!
