posted
Bremmer was visibly emotional-- the Iraqi's in the room even more so-- at the news conference where shots of the dictator were broadcast on a plasma screen.
No one expects that his capture will end the insurgency.
I wonder if he will bargain the location of WMD for the US promise NOT to turn him over to an Iraqi war crimes jury.
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posted
Will we believe him if he says there aren't any, or will we offer to give him the same bargain just to say that there are some?
Personally, I think a little torture is called for. A 24-hour Teletubbies marathon oughta do the trick.
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posted
If they can't kill him, maybe they can just throw him in another hole, not like the one they found him in...maybe in one of those mass graves they found?
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posted
Wow, didn't see this comming. But then again, you wouldn't expect to expect it, would you? Wacky. He looks like the love child of Santa Claus and Karl Marx.
Posts: 1769 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: I thought I heard on NBC that the death penalty has been suspended in Iraq by our government.
quote: If they can't kill him...
I heard the coallition suspended the death penalty in Iraq as well. But that doesn't mean Sadaam or others won't get the death penalty. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the death penalty reinstated by the Iraqi government once the coallition turns over power. That's probably the plan as it puts any judicial life-taking in the hands of the Iraqi people themselves rather than the coallition.
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posted
Sorry I missed this. I can't wait for the conditional statements of those who are going to say how useless this is and how this is not a victory.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I do have to wonder, is this going to really solve anything? For many Americans, this is it! Kill the * and our lives are happy again. And the news focuses on other events while we forget about Iraq. And we haven't even begun to try to understand what happened here. Sweep the messy details under the rug, because we've got the bad guy.
I don't know. I just am feeling very nervous about the whole thing. I'm bracing myself for the patriotic blanket comments I will hear from my students and coworkers tomorrow. I wonder why I feel like crying.
This is not the end of the story, not by a long shot. But I'm afraid that for many people, the conflict has been resolved, and the aftermath of trials will be the wrap-up. And then the general populace will put the book away.
(Is that good enough for you, Argent?)
I don't disagree that this is a victory. But victories are part of much longer story. I just don't think this one is ended yet.
posted
Frankly, I'd like to see Hussein doing community service for the rest of his life - exhuming the mass graves, receiving thousands of letters from young children asking why? why? why?, planting gardens, picking up litter, and the like.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Newscaster: "What was going through your mind when you saw that footage of Saddam, beaten down and in U.S. custody, being examined by a U.S. armed forces physician?
The interviewee used the words "sweet" "revenge" and "joy".
Watching the footage I felt pain, sadness, regret, humiliation. Emptiness. Worry. Some relief, but not much.
Watching someone being incarcerated doesn't bring me joy. Even if it is necessary, it doesn't make me happy.
Now, on the other hand, hearing "We got him!" does make me feel glad. Why is that?
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- The USA is a lucky nation. Throughout our history we've prospered through hard work and competence, and we've also prospered by just randomly having things go our way. Obviously there was a lot of both involved in this capture.
- George W Bush himself is a lucky individual.
- Iraq probably has a very good chance for democracy, where before today there was nearly none, if I have the right read on the sentiments of their population.
- Dean will not be the next president, and Clark will have to work very hard to revive his campaign after this.
- If Hussein reveals hidden caches of weapons which are subsequently discovered, this will boost the image of America internationally. If he says there are weapons which were destroyed or moved to Syria or some such, this will only make the American people happy.
- Whatever else happens, a bad guy has been put out of action. History will tell us whether his captors are properly labeled as "the good guys."
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posted
We're not exactly lucky based on this. It was only a matter of time before we captured the guy, at least if he stayed in Iraq.
And the timing is poor for Bush. If it had happened in, say, October 2004, it could have been quite useful for him. But at this point it won't probably have much of an effect on the election a year from now, unless he reveals some sort of secrets with significance in the long run.
(I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they tried to time the trial better.)
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posted
We're lucky that he didn't leave the country, or get blown up by one of our missile attacks (which we thought might have happened, I remember one bombing that they hypothesized might have killed him), or decide to commit suicide after the war, or do any one of a number of things that would've prevented us taking him alive or coming into possession of his body.
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posted
I hear if a despot comes out of his hole in the ground and sees his shadow, there'll be six more weeks of winter.
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posted
This is great news -- especially for those of our troops who're still there, who hopefully will face less organized resistance now. I'm glad to hear it.
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posted
Don't worry, Jenny, you're not the only one who isn't feeling unmitigated elation. I mean, as aware as I am of Saddam's horrific crimes, it's still difficult to see someone as beaten down as he is without involuntarily feeling some compassion. I mean, a year ago, he was strutting his stuff before the world, standing off against the U.S. president, feeling like the world was his and he was untouchable. Today, he has been rejected and denounced by all but a crazy minority of his own people, both his sons are dead and on public display, and where he used to control the propaganda of a nation, a video of his own physical is now being jeered and mocked by the Iraqi press.
As horrible a man as he is, it's hard to giggle and cheer about it. But Iraq really does have a shot at freedom now, which up until last night was constantly threatened by the fear of Saddam returning. It will be hard work, but the future really did just get a little brighter for them. I think if our hearts are in the right place, we should at least be able to feel some joy for that. We don't have to be vengeful or vindictive about the dictator himself to recognize that his fall is a good thing.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
You could only kill him once, and he has killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. Current indications are that he will be tried in Iraq by Iraqis, and there will be no death penalty. Just last week the old constitution was re-adopted, stripped of the later amendments of the Saddam Hussein rigime which permitted the death penalty.
Do to him what the Peruvian government did in 1992 when it captured Abimael Guzman, the legendary and highly romanticized spiritual leader of the "Shining Path" insurgency, which came close to overthrowing the government. They dressed Guzman in a striped suit that accentuated his overweight build and put him on public display in his cell, so everyone could see that he was nothing mythical or noble at all, just a ridiculous-looking man. The Shining Path immediately collapsed to a mere shadow of its former power.
I think it is significant that Saddam Hussein had a pistol when he was captured, and it remained in his holster. He did not try to resist, nor did he try to commit suicide. This should give a message to all those fanatical followers who have been encouraged all along to give their lives for the "cause."
He was also found with $750,000 in U.S. currency, but I don't think they will let him post bond.
[ December 14, 2003, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Will we believe him if he says there aren't any, or will we offer to give him the same bargain just to say that there are some?
Pessimist that I am with regard to the folks in DC, the same thought crossed my mind.
I've put the WMD's into the category of the lone gunman and Marilyn Monroe's death. There will always be theories and we can be only be certain that we'll never know the truth even if we hear it.
Right now there is still doubt about whether or not Iraq had WMD's. The world community can't prove that we completely disarmed our enemy before declaring war on him. There is still that possibility that Iraq was a danger under Saddam's rule.
I do fear that Saddam will remove all doubt about the WMD's. If he says that he was a leader of a defenseless nation and that we took advantage of that vulnerability for our own geopolitical and economic interests; where does that leave us?
I think that if this had happened during the Gulf War, I would be proud and thrilled at his capture. Sort of like giving the folks in DC an Oscar for a job well done.
But the circumstances are different now, so my response to the news is not "Yippee!", but a hope that his name is quickly removed from the headlines.
Though I don't dispute that it is better for the US, the Iraqi people and humanity in general that Saddam will never again be able to lead a nation, I fear that he is again going to be in public forum where he can harm us.
Regarding punishment- Killing him won't bring back any of our kids who die on a daily basis in Iraq. And it is probably what he expects. Let's not let him become a martyr, let's make him live out his days as a common prisoner stripped of the power he's addicted to.
He was willing to sacrifice the lives of his people to keep this power. Let's play-up this egotistical, greedy side of his nature and show the world that he is no martyr for his country, but a spoiled child who refused to give-up his toy.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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So Clark at least felt that this was an important objective. The article also quotes Paul Bremer, who said that Saddam should be killed. It's a good thing he didn't get his way.
Personally, I'm pleased that Saddam has been captured. Although it is mostly a symbolic victory, I think this will damage the morale of the remaining guerillas, especially when they find out that Saddam surrendered without a fight. The majority of Iraqis, on the other hand, apparently feared that Saddam would return, dampening their enthusiasm for liberty. I hope they'll be able to pursue democracy freely now. It is also good for them and the world to see that Saddam is just a pitiful old man (and yes, I do feel sorry for him, even though I know he's an evil mass murderer. He is still human, after all). And I hope that he does not become a martyr. Let him live to regret what he did.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:a year ago, he was strutting his stuff before the world, standing off against the U.S. president, feeling like the world was his and he was untouchable. Today, he has been rejected and denounced by all but a crazy minority of his own people, both his sons are dead and on public display, and where he used to control the propaganda of a nation, a video of his own physical is now being jeered and mocked by the Iraqi press.
This just happened to remind me of a few selections from Isaiah 14. Don't read into this any more than the fact that it reminded me of it:
From the NASB, by the way:
quote:And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, "How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased! The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution. The whole earth is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy...."
"How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven;I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly in the recesses of the north. 'I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High'"
"...Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
...Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse. "You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever."
From one King of Babylon to the next. History repeats itself, neh?
What makes you think it is? I'm far happier with the war today than I was two days ago. This is a sign of progress, much more to the people of Iraq than even to the US. Sure, it helps a lot of us in the US feel more justified with the losses, but this is something we can give to the Iraqi people and let them finally decide their own fates with. I'm thinking they'll be assigning multiple death sentences on him, and if they do, the US should not do a darned thing. He's been organizing resistance since his fall, even if much of it was through subordinates. Once the head is gone, the body will sooner follow. This is far better results than we have had so far with Bin Laden. How anyone can see this as anything but a positive thing is beyond me.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
It's an extremely positive thing, and to echo something of what Jenny Gardner and Ron Lambert said, I would love to see him chained to a big stage and have to answer questions from people. Why did you kill my brother? Why did you murder my father? Why did you torture my mother? This is her picture. Why? Please explain. Let the Iraqis have their time to confront him and allow the rest of the Islamic world to finally see that the people can righteously confront and triumph over their dictators.
Even though the CIA dismisses the domino theory of democracy, I have this romantic streak in me that says that if something like that were to happen and be shown on Al Jazeera...well, it certainly couldn't hurt to get the first domino down, now could it?
quote: Do you see any irony in the fact that we murdered his sons?
Is that so? Would you call that murder? If I remember correctly, they weren't exactly UNARMED -- they were trying to kill us too. I don't consider that murder..... maybe call it War.
posted
I don't think we should kill Saddam that would make him a matyr. Keep him jailed and sending out photos of him being treated well in prision and slowly aging a hopeless former leader. Don't give his supporters or terrorists anything to rally around.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I also don't think that displaying is impotency in front of everyone is a good idea. Keep in mind, his fanatic followers are crazy, and therefore aren't going to be too terribly rational. I bet they'd say something about it being a cheap, deceptive tactic of the underhanded west.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Killing him is fine, we just have to wait the customary few years and then some. Let him have his "due process" and plently of appeals and then when he does get executed he can't be martyred. I feel NO pity for him. Its like saying we should pity Hitler because he was in poverty and he lost his life's struggle and lost his power, poor him. We're talking about someone who is definitely a mass murderer and possibly worse, guilty, of genocide. war crimes, and other crimes against humanity galore. At least Hitler never used his massive arsenal of chemical weapons.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Has anyone of you read the international news ? Everybody is happy about Saddam being captured: the Russians, the French, the Germans... So, now it's good that you Americans started the war ?!
German Chancellor's reaction: "Saddam Hussein has brought unspeakable suffering over his own people and the whole region. I hope that with his capture the efforts of the international community to the reconstruction and stabilization of Iraq will be furthered."
I read and wonder: how would've all this been possible if you haven't started the war in the first place ?! Forgive me, I'm kind of repeating myself, but I'm really disgusted with the "cheerful" reactions coming from the same persons that some time ago were bitterly opposing this war...
For my part, I'm happy about it. Some of you might not realize this, but it's like the blow of death for Saddam's guerillas, and a breathe of hope for the Iraqi people and your armed forces currently in Iraq. I know this doesn't mean it's all over; but it's a major step towards the end.
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posted
I noticed that also but I didn't feel like complaining or going down to their level and taunting, "I told you so!"
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
>> Everybody is happy about Saddam being captured: the Russians, the French, the Germans... So, now it's good that you Americans started the war ?! <<
Perhaps it's possible that those who oppose the war are openminded enough to be happy about the good things that result from it? And to admit that those things did result from it? It's possible to do that while still believing the war was wrong, you know.
Edit:
I had dinner with a family of Iraqi refugees tonight, all of whom opposed the war but were nonetheless glad and relieved to see Saddam gone. Basically, their view was "at least something good has come of this."
posted
Rat-Dog, thank you. I am so glad that our country has been able to be the one that affected the Iraqui liberation. It makes me feel proud and patriotic. But it's a very solemn feeling, not one of celebration.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
There is so much work left to do. If we are going to see the good come of this war that is possible, then we must not run away from the long, difficult, unglamourous business of rebuiding. We need to commit to stay the course, and be consistent, reliable allies to those who are working for peace and stability. If we drop the ball and run out now, we will have thrown away what so many people died to bring about. My deep hope is that we will be steadfast, determined, and honorable friends to the people of Iraq.
Posts: 968 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I am happy that Saddam Hussein was captured, but I do not believe the fighting will end. Not soon, anyway. I am resolved to the idea that more of my friends will be sent overseas; to fight, to rebuild, to 'peacekeep'. Maybe even That Man I Married (even though this is unlikely, given his present job in the military) will be sent to Iraq, to be shot at, to be reviled, to be welcomed, to be downright uncomfortable. That Man does love cable tv and comfy chair. ("Not the...Comfy Chair!" sorry, Monty Python digression, hehe.) I am cautiously optimistic.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Now how about we trade bin Laden for Salman Rushdie, straight up.
_________________________________________
I don't know how good I can feel about the prospects of a trial. I don't know if this is nearly as clear of a case as Nuremberg or Milosevic, and to tell the truth, there are some pretty good arguments to haul the leaders of our country in front of a tribunal. Saddam is captured. I hope this means that the sporadic and deadly attacks will abate, but this is a grim victory to be taken with solemn satisfaction.
_______________________________________
For the record, I was never against the war because I didn't think we would catch Saddam. It's not a matter of catching the bad guys. It's a matter of building a safer, saner world buttressed by cooperation and participation, especially in this nuclear and global age. It's a matter of not having to fudge evidence in order to attack, I see it as no better than a cop planting evidence at a crime scene. It's about a commitment to peace as a means as well as an ends. It's about a commitment to national soveriegnty, and personally, I can't see how the states' rights and private property die-hards can so eagerly support this war, but since I'm neither, I'm not to worried about the contradictions in their soul.
We have the Huessein, but I'm just not sure that he should have been the great issue in this war.
quote:We Finally Got Our Frankenstein... and He Was In a Spider Hole! -- by Michael Moore
December 14, 2003
Thank God Saddam is finally back in American hands! He must have really missed us. Man, he sure looked bad! But, at least he got a free dental exam today. That's something most Americans can't get.
America used to like Saddam. We LOVED Saddam. We funded him. We armed him. We helped him gas Iranian troops.
But then he screwed up. He invaded the dictatorship of Kuwait and, in doing so, did the worst thing imaginable -- he threatened an even BETTER friend of ours: the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia, and its vast oil reserves. The Bushes and the Saudi royal family were and are close business partners, and Saddam, back in 1990, committed a royal blunder by getting a little too close to their wealthy holdings. Things went downhill for Saddam from there.
But it wasn't always that way. Saddam was our good friend and ally. We supported his regime. It wasn’t the first time we had helped a murderer. We liked playing Dr. Frankenstein. We created a lot of monsters -- the Shah of Iran, Somoza of Nicaragua, Pinochet of Chile -- and then we expressed ignorance or shock when they ran amok and massacred people. We liked Saddam because he was willing to fight the Ayatollah. So we made sure that he got billions of dollars to purchase weapons. Weapons of mass destruction. That's right, he had them. We should know -- we gave them to him!
We allowed and encouraged American corporations to do business with Saddam in the 1980s. That's how he got chemical and biological agents so he could use them in chemical and biological weapons. Here's the list of some of the stuff we sent him (according to a 1994 U.S. Senate report):
* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.
* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.
* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.
* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.
* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.
* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.
And here are some of the American corporations who helped to prop Saddam up by doing business with him: AT&T, Bechtel, Caterpillar, Dow Chemical, Dupont, Kodak, Hewlett-Packard, and IBM (for a full list of companies and descriptions of how they helped Saddam, go here).
We were so cozy with dear old Saddam that we decided to feed him satellite images so he could locate where the Iranian troops were. We pretty much knew how he would use the information, and sure enough, as soon as we sent him the spy photos, he gassed those troops. And we kept quiet. Because he was our friend, and the Iranians were the "enemy." A year after he first gassed the Iranians, we reestablished full diplomatic relations with him!
Later he gassed his own people, the Kurds. You would think that would force us to disassociate ourselves from him. Congress tried to impose economic sanctions on Saddam, but the Reagan White House quickly rejected that idea -- they wouldn’t let anything derail their good buddy Saddam. We had a virtual love fest with this Frankenstein whom we (in part) created.
And, just like the mythical Frankenstein, Saddam eventually spun out of control. He would no longer do what he was told by his master. Saddam had to be caught. And now that he has been brought back from the wilderness, perhaps he will have something to say about his creators. Maybe we can learn something... interesting. Maybe Don Rumsfeld could smile and shake Saddam's hand again. Just like he did when he went to see him in 1983 (see the photo here).
Maybe we never would have been in the situation we're in if Rumsfeld, Bush, Sr., and company hadn't been so excited back in the 80s about their friendly monster in the desert.
Meanwhile, anybody know where the guy is who killed 3,000 people on 9/11? Our other Frankenstein?? Maybe he's in a mouse hole.
So many of our little monsters, so little time before the next election.
Stay strong, Democratic candidates. Quit sounding like a bunch of wusses. These bastards sent us to war on a lie, the killing will not stop, the Arab world hates us with a passion, and we will pay for this out of our pockets for years to come. Nothing that happened today (or in the past 9 months) has made us ONE BIT safer in our post-9/11 world. Saddam was never a threat to our national security.
Only our desire to play Dr. Frankenstein dooms us all.
For a look back to the better times of our relationship with Saddam Hussein, see the following:
Patrick E. Tyler, "Officers say U.S. aided Iraq in war despite use of gas, New York Times, August 18, 2002.
"U.S. Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual Use Exports to Iraq and their possible impact on health consequences of the Gulf War," 1994 Report by the Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affiars.
William Blum's cover story in the April 1998 issue of The Progressive, "Anthrax for Export.”
Jim Crogan's April 25-May 1, 2003 report in the LA Weekly, "Made in the USA, Part III: The Dishonor Roll."
"Iraq: U.S. military items exported or transferred to Iraq in the 1980s," United States General Accounting Office, released February 7, 1994.
"U.S. had key role in Iraq buildup; trade in chemical arms allowed despite their use on Iranians and Kurds," Washington Post, December 30, 2002.
"Iraqgate: Saddam Hussein, U.S. policy and the prelude to the Persian Gulf War, 1980-1994," The National Security Archive, 2003
posted
Heh. I meant in relation to his other presentations. And while he's certainly using these articles from respectable sources to further his point that the US has a history that makes this Bush's claims against tyranny rather hypocritical, he's at least following a semblance of the truth. It's not as though I'm quoting an Anne Coulter or Rush Limbaugh article.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
The weird thing for me was that I didn't hear about it until I called my Mom last night. I try to stay away from the news and the internet during the weekends.
C-SPAN was playing news broadcasts from different countries throughout the world last night. The Canadian Broadcast was very reasuring and hoped for the best. But, in absolute contrast the British Broadcast saw this as a failure. I honestly can't remember the 'facts' that they laid down to prove their point, I do remember that they were stupid and unfounded. They said they would much rather see the WMD than Saddam. Well who the heck knows more about the WMD than Saddam! I'm glad we got him, I'm glad we got him before he was killed. There were a lot of Iraqi bounty hunters combing Iraq, looking to bring his head to the American Military.
I think we all need to look through the media and see this for what it is. We took a mass-murderer and put him in jail. That's a victory to me!
Finding his corpse would have been closure for our troops, but left him a martyr for his people.
Battling him to the death, allowing a hero's end for this self-proclaimed "Lion of the Desert" would have been only partially a victory.
Capturing him alive, but defiant and fighting, would have been better.
But capturing a weakened, sniveling, cowardly Hussein, living humbled and broken in a hut and a hole was the best way we could have found him.
There are many of his wildest fanatics who disbelieve this man is Hussein. The beleive its all faked.
Yet even they must have a hint of doubt, a minutia of uncertainty that will make planting the next road side bomb a little less likely.
This will do nothing to stop the Shia Fanatics and Al Queda Suicide Squads from thier dailly deaths. They hated Hussein and are happy to see him beaten down.
But in the Hussein controled areas, where people fought for the brave leader of Iraqi (Sunni) supremacy, discovering their leader so beaten, they must doubt their mission now.
Sure there are other leaders, hoping that with brutality and explosives, they can replace Hussein as Dictator. They too are happy their rival is beaten. They too will plan on more deaths and more violence. But perhaps, seeing Hussein not dead in a glorious battle like his sons, but surrendering meekly, those who would have followed other dictators will instead, move on with their lives.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Actually, based on the more recent reports it looks like Saddam is not really acting humbled or cowardly after all. He refuses to cooperate and reportly is answering questions with nationalist sentiment about how his nation is now enslaved. I have to wonder if this means he is intending to try and make a martyr of himself, or if it will be interpretted that way by his followers.
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