posted
I may as well stick my neck out, just to see what happens. I can't possibly get pounded worse than I do talking about Iraq.
quote:1. When you were 5 years of age, were you a heterosexual?
No. I don't recall being attracted to anyone prior to about 11 or 12.
quote:2. Could you choose to be attracted to a member of the same sex?
Not having attempted this, on moral grounds, I have no idea.
quote:3. For the virgins, how do you know you are heterosexual?
Strictly speaking, I suppose one could say a virgin is not. After all, when most of the people I know say homosexuality is a choice, they're talking about behavior, not attraction.
quote:4. Is a murderer born a murderer? (Apart from the idea of original sin)
posted
Strictly speaking, I suppose one could say a virgin is not. After all, when most of the people I know say homosexuality is a choice, they're talking about behavior, not attraction.
so than by this logic it may be who ever gets there first? not sure if I get this line or reasoning. don't you think the virgin has fantasies or at least some idea of how they would like the first time to go? mabey I just don't get your angle.
Posts: 122 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I do not know if homosexuality is a choice or not. I am not homosexual myself, nor is anyone close to me. However, I will answer your questions.
1. When I was 5, I was heterosexual. I had very poignant dreams, and in some of them I was in love with a character. The character was always male.
2. I could be attracted to a member of the same sex. I'd probably be squicked out by actual physical intimacy with someone of the same gender, but sometimes a fantasy will arise.
3. When I was a virgin, I was turned on and attracted to men.
4. A murderer is born a child. There may be hereditary tendencies which make this person more likely to murder than others, but the circumstances and upbringing must be right for the person to actually become a murderer.
5. Most likely heterosexuals are born as such. Natural selection would see to that.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Not having attempted this, on moral grounds, I have no idea.
This smacks of dishonesty to me. I know I am attracted to women, and not to men. Why, because that's the way I feel. I know men for whom this is not the case. They are attracted to men, and not women. This isn't something I decided, it just was. This is the case with everyone I know. Do you choose who you find attractive? I don't. I don't know anyone who does.
Posts: 1769 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
"1. When you were 5 years of age, were you a heterosexual?"
I had a kindergarten girlfriend that I was attracted to in a way that I never felt towards another boy. It wasn't sexual at the time, but there was a crush-like level of fascination and nervousness.
"2. Could you choose to be attracted to a member of the same sex?"
I can recognize when another man looks good, so I guess I could talk myself into it if I wanted to. I just don't want to
"3. For the virgins, how do you know you are heterosexual?"
As others have said, before I had actually had sex, I went through a long string of experiences involving attraction to and intimacy with women. None with men.
"4. Is a murderer born a murderer? (Apart from the idea of original sin)"
No, of course not, though many of them are born jerks
"5. Is a heterosexual born a heterosexual?"
If we were all born with completely neutral sexuality, that wouldn't bode well for our species Most humans are all wired up from birth to become intensely attracted to the opposite sex around puberty, so yes, I'd say that they are. I also think that many homosexuals are born under the same circumstances, and their environment nudges them down another path. But that's just my opinion, since I haven't exactly conducted any research to prove it Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:"2. Could you choose to be attracted to a member of the same sex?"
I can recognize when another man looks good, so I guess I could talk myself into it if I wanted to. I just don't want to
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"5. Is a heterosexual born a heterosexual?"
If we were all born with completely neutral sexuality, that wouldn't bode well for our species Most humans are all wired up from birth to become intensely attracted to the opposite sex around puberty, so yes, I'd say that they are. I also think that many homosexuals are born under the same circumstances, and their environment nudges them down another path. But that's just my opinion, since I haven't exactly conducted any research to prove it
Do you really think your sexuality is flexible enough that you can have sex with whichever gender you find attractive at the moment? Forgive me, but unless you -- contrary to your statements -- have had some sort of sexual relations with another man, I have no choice but to interpret your claims of I-can-but-just-don't-want-to as wishful thinking along the vein of furthering a belief that homosexuality is a choice, and therefore, definable as a sin.
No doubt, if your wife's life was at stake, you could bring yourself to kiss another man, and no doubt a prison experience would result in some sort of sexual submission. But could you bring yourself to enjoy it?
For my part, though I'm confident in my heterosexuality, I -- like most people I know -- have wondered how homosexuality could work. I've tried to be attracted to men before, if only to see if it's possible, and thus far, with the one exception of seeing a picture of some guy named "Geoff Card" in an EnderCon picture, I've failed at my attempts to be sexually attracted to other men. It just doesn't click with me. While I'm going to force myself to kiss another man before I die, if only to live before I die, I doubt I could ever hold up my part in a homosexual relationship.
Which is fine. Women are prettier than men, anyway. But I'm not going to pretend I haven't wondered about homosexuality, as most -- all -- men have at one point or another in their lives, to one degree or another. Denying fantasy, to me, seems far more indicative of insecure sexuality than anything else.
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As far as your assertion that homosexuals are really heterosexuals, only screwed up... Exactly what supports this opinion of yours? I'm going to refrain from commenting further on that particular bit, as I'm sure I'm interpreting it as far more ridiculous than it actually is.
And, of course, you agree that regardless of whether or not homosexuality is a choice or a genetic predisposition, all people are entitled to equal opportunity to marry another human being whom they fall in love with, right? You agree that this debate is entirely unimportant in the arena of political equality, as unimportant as an argument over whether my preference for Latinas is a genetic predisposition or sexual preference. I still have the right to marry a Latina, as much as I have the right to marry a black or white or Asian woman. Just as I should have the right to marry a black or white or Asian man, regardless of whether I prefer their race or their gender out of genetic suggestion or love-related preference.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Except for the genders listed, my response would be almost exactly the same as Jenny Gardners.
My question, though, is who cares?
6. Is it any one's business besides the adults involved?
7. Will debating the issue on a Bulletin Board ever change anything or anyone's opinion.
8. Does your attitude towards homosexuals (or homosexuality) define your relationship with God?
9. Does your relationship with God define your attitude towards homosexuals or homosexuality?
10. If the answer to 8 or 9 is "yes"...why do you think that's true? What convinced you of the link?
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Chaeron, the way he asked the question defined my answer. "Could I choose to be attracted to a man?" is not the same question as "Did I choose which gender I would generally be attracted to?" I was not trying to be deceptive or disingenuous.
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
My point still stands; I don't think we choose who we are attracted to, male or female. I know I don't have any choice in the matter, and I don't think you do either. It isn't a choice we can consciously make. You're right insofar as we can choose to act on it or not, but not beyond that.
Posts: 1769 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I guess I'm kind of an in betweener who is committed to marriage and family, and so heterosexual by choice. I have sexual dreams about men and women. I'm always disturbed by the apparent desire to be sexual with anyone except my husband. I get crushes on actresses as well as actors. But just because I say someone is cute doesn't mean I actual plan to have sex with them.
Thus my view that homosexuality would increase if a marriage state for it were instituted. I also think the fact that a higher rate of males are homosexual than females supports my view. Men are more autonomous, less concerned with the views of others. Statistics are obviously hard to come by, but my understanding is that its like 10% of men and 3% of women. While I know coming out is bound to cause someone they care about pain, I think men still find it easier than women.
This raises the further question of whether in their gender orientation, gay men are more social and gregarious where lesbians are more isolated. So when a gay man comes out, does he then have a social network to support him.
Why has the lesbian word stuck but any word that refers to gay men comes to be seen as an insult? (this also happens with terms for African Americans and also for any word describing olfactory stimulus (meaning smell)) (propogating the meme from the hug thread and scientific dirty words thread)
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:1. When you were 5 years of age, were you a heterosexual?
Oh yeah. Had a girlfriend and everything. Of course, that basically consisted of holding hands and being partners in the computer lab. But we did pass little love notes to each other when the teacher wasnt looking. I was a little pimp in first grade. Now, of course, Im about as smooth as sandpaper so... oh well.
quote: 2. Could you choose to be attracted to a member of the same sex?
No. that's just icky.
quote: 3. For the virgins, how do you know you are heterosexual?
Well, being a guy, it's obvious. A flag is raised to remind me.
quote:4. Is a murderer born a murderer? (Apart from the idea of original sin)
Well now there's a comparison. Wanting to have the sex with another man vs. shoving his face into a meat grinder. Yeah, I see how the two have something to do with one another.
quote: 5. Is a heterosexual born a heterosexual?
Yes. That's what makes it normal, while being homosexual is deviant.
Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Lalo, you're reading WAY too much into my responses. It's like you're imposing some imagined agenda on what I said, and intentionally drawing it out into an argument. For example:
"I have no choice but to interpret your claims of I-can-but-just-don't-want-to as wishful thinking along the vein of furthering a belief that homosexuality is a choice, and therefore, definable as a sin."
You have no choice except to read into my words an opinion that isn't there? That's really too bad, we might have understood each other, were you not so predestined to get into an argument about it, no matter what I did.
If you've followed these sorts of threads in the past, you've probably picked up on the fact that while I am a heterosexual who belongs to a faith that rejects the homosexual lifestyle, I find the plight and case of homosexuals very compelling, and have a hard time debating the issue with someone for long without seeing their side of the matter. I don't have an agenda to push here, because I am not so blindly confident that I have all the answers, and I don't think I can come in and tell people what they should think about something that no one has ever had a chance to research and understand in a nonbiased, open-minded way. In that, the two of us are very different.
"No doubt, if your wife's life was at stake, you could bring yourself to kiss another man, and no doubt a prison experience would result in some sort of sexual submission. But could you bring yourself to enjoy it?"
I don't know where you think you get your very deep insight into the workings of my psyche, but it seems almost as though you're just making most of this up You imagine that I believe homosexuality to be a totally free and independent choice, and that I'm just inventing things about myself to justify it.
In truth, I don't think anyone would just randomly "choose" to be gay, all things being equal. Gays still put up with a LOT of crap from a LOT of people, and coming out isn't something that a person can do lightly without serious repercussions. Most people choose to accept homosexuality as their outward lifestyle because there is something unavoidable inside them that compels them to do so. So while coming out and living a gay lifestyle is a choice (and a brave and difficult one for some people), simply "being gay" is no more a choice than "being artsy" or "liking grapes" or "being anorexic". It's a psychological phenomenon. Not a random decision, like tweaking your "gayness" stat in a roleplaying game.
So, why did I say that I could imagine choosing to be attracted to a man? Because I DO believe in two things that you, despite your psychic connection to my mind, seem to have missed:
1. I devote myself to trying to understand other people's perspectives on life, and HAVE tried to imagine being gay. It's not compatible with the way I feel right now, and would certainly be disruptive to my marriage But if events had gone differently in my life, I think it's a direction that I — and most other people, including you — MIGHT have gone. I don't believe that I am magically immune from phenomena that affect other people. There are many things that I would never do today that I might have done had I grown up under completely different circumstances.
I have a very strong belief in my own ability to condition myself into things when I need to, and change the way I think. I don't know if you've ever had the experience of changing your mind, but I've done it many times, and I think it's an experience everyone should have. But it requires you to be able to think outside your own little prison cell of a mind and envision what it is like to be someone else. I hope you learn to do it sometime, rather than making up what other people think to suit your own arguments.
2. I don't think that gayness is just a switch that's either "on" or "off" when you're born, by genetics or random chance. So far as anyone has been able to determine, there is no "family line" of gays that can prove a genetic connection. Which leads me to think (tentatively, without proof) that homosexual tendencies are usually induced by the environment during childhood. Different people have different experiences, which encourage them to think in different ways when they get older. So it's not a genetic switch — it's a vast spectrum of experiences, which send people down very different paths to maturity.
That in mind, I believe that people aren't simply "gay" or "not gay". Many heterosexuals have had subtle, or even dramatic, homosexual experiences in their lives, and many homosexuals spend very much of their lives believing themselves to be hetero. While the media (even the staunchly pro-gay parts of the media, which absolutely boggles my mind) portray both gay and straight men as very homogenous, stereotypical groups, to the point at which they had to invent the term "metrosexual" to explain the bizarre phenomenon of men who don't fit into their ridiculous categories, people are ALL DIFFERENT. We learn that on Sesame Street.
So the fact that I'm not gay doesn't mean I can't imagine finding other men attractive or exciting. Being a straight man does not make me an audience member on The Man Show. It just doesn't, and I find it incredibly bigoted and narrow-minded for you to assume you know how I think just because you know my sexual orientation.
So now that you know how I was REALLY thinking, I hope my response makes more sense to you. I think I could condition myself into finding another man attractive. I don't think that the lines are so finely drawn that finding a man attractive is just "unthinkable" for a straight man. Could I pick up and start a life as a homosexual? No, of course not. But that wasn't the question I was asked, was it?
"As far as your assertion that homosexuals are really heterosexuals, only screwed up... Exactly what supports this opinion of yours?"
I think I've addressed this already. First of all, I didn't say homosexuals were "really heterosexuals", nor did I say they were "screwed up". There you go trying to read my mind again
Second of all, this is my opinion because it is what seems most reasonable in a world almost completely devoid of unbiased research. I hope one day, we can get some solid facts on the subject, but until then, I'm forced to make my best guess based on what I've seen. Both the idea of it being an inborn genetic trait, and the idea of it being a choice made in a vacuum seem ridiculous to me, based on what anecdotal evidence I have. So this seems to be the reasonable position at the moment.
As far as your last paragraph goes, that seems like a whole separate argument beyond the scope of this thread, and is not worth pursuing with someone who presumes to tell me my own opinion just so he can argue with it.
Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Now, i dont think that being an audience member of the man show is intrinsically wrong. In fact, I think that shouting and grunting with juggies everywhere is intrinsically yummy.
posted
I do feel a little threatened by the growing numbers of people who say it is perfectly acceptable for a group to say they could NEVER be attracted to someone of my minority status.
Edit: In response to Lalo's:
quote: You agree that this debate is entirely unimportant in the arena of political equality, as unimportant as an argument over whether my preference for Latinas is a genetic predisposition or sexual preference. I still have the right to marry a Latina, as much as I have the right to marry a black or white or Asian woman. Just as I should have the right to marry a black or white or Asian man, regardless of whether I prefer their race or their gender out of genetic suggestion or love-related preference.
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But I'm not going to pretend I haven't wondered about homosexuality, as most -- all -- men have at one point or another in their lives, to one degree or another. Denying fantasy, to me, seems far more indicative of insecure sexuality than anything else.![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
