posted
I may be opening a can of worms here, but I'd like to hear your opinions on illegal imigration.
I have nothing against people who come here legally. I'm not a racist.
One side says that the influx of illegals is hurting those who are looking for jobs and the other side says they're taking jobs that we Americans don't want.
I know how the politicians feel, but i want the opinions of real people.
posted
Its illegal, and as such, needs to be stopped. Immigration is a different topic altogether. I have no problem with legal immigration.
Posts: 859 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Derrell, you'll probably have better luck at generating a response if you give us a little more of a launching pad. What are your thoughts on the issue? Are there some recent articles on the subject that have brought it up in your mind? Share them with us, along with your reaction to them, and you'll probably have much better luck at sparking conversation.
posted
Illegal Immigration is the Prohibition of our times.
It is a law that is unenforceable and unwanted by all but a vocal minority.
Basically, the country has a set of jobs that most Americans do not want to do. This ranges from yard work and maid services to farm and poultry plucking jobs.
Many of these jobs are seasonal.
There are some that say Illegal Immigrants are stealing jobs from Americans, yet I have never heard of unemployed Americans who were willing to move to Joplin Missouri to pluck turkeys for minimum wage.
And if they jobs paid what an American demanded to do the work, the cost of the food would double, starting a chain of inflation that would damage the entire economy.
Mostly I hear, "People who are breaking the law need to be punished."
They are breaking a minor law in order to feed their families. Some how I find that a lot more tolerable than people who cheat on their taxes or try and short change the undocumented workers they meet.
Best solution, set up a 30 million man green 3 year worker visa system, where all that is required is a finger print and a name and promises, to be done out of border station in Mexico.
That way, those coming to America will not be Breaking the Law.
Don't have it cost the workers anything, because they have nothing to begin with. You can have renewals cost $100. After working in the US for three years, they should be able to come up with that.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: It is a law that is unenforceable and unwanted by all but a vocal minority.
I don't know what part of the country you are in, but in the rest of the country, people are overwhelmingly against illegal immigration.
Posts: 859 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
We should also address the problem of coyotes. For those who don't know, coyotes are the people who get paid to smuggle illegals accross the border.
As long as there are people willing to pay to cross the border, there will be people willing to bring them.
I heard an Interview with Vincente Fox. He thinks we should tear down the border crossing stations and simply let the citizens of his country enter the U.S. at will.
posted
Derrell, if you wish some more thoughtful, detailed explanations (more than just "yep, I'm for" or "nope, I'm against"), you really need to provide us with a thoughtful position of your own to which we can respond.
Otherwise, it looks like you're just looking for help on writing a school paper. Believe it or not, that's happened often enough that "write your own paper" has its own acronym here, as well as a High Priest of Plagiaric Protest (PrimalCurve).
So, flesh out your position -- what do you see the primary problems with allowing illegal immigrations to be, and what do you think the primary benefits would be? What about the reverse? What personal experiences or analyses have led you to this position?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:people are overwhelmingly against illegal immigration.
Does anyone know of any legitimate surveys or other references for this? It seems pointless to argue that point when we have no way of confirming or denying it.
quote:It is a law that is unenforceable
I think this must be true. There are millions of people who want to come here, and far, far fewer available to stop them.
quote:if they are willing to defy ourlaws once,then they will do it again
First of all, the first does not necessitate the second. Second, there's a big difference between a person who will do anything to provide a better life for his family and a murderer, rapist, thief, or copyright violator. Third, at the very least you should amend your statement if you don't think that all lawbreakers should be deported.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I am so tired of hearing the refrain "jobs that Americans don't want to do." Somehow we've turned out a bunch of people who think they are above being paid to do physical work for a living.
I can't tell you how many people my husband has hired in the last five years who quit because the work was "too hard." We offered $10/hr to people with no experience, and we reimbursed mileage and provided a cell phone. You could graduate from high school with no work experience and make over $20,000 a year not counting overtime (which is plentiful and we pay time and a half.)
We pay nearly twice the minimum wage and provide worker's compensation insurance. And people quit like crazy because the work was "too hard" What was too hard about it?
Well, on some jobs we have to lay in water services and that requires digging trenches. For big jobs we hire backhoes, but for smaller jobs we give our guys a shovel. So, they've got to do some digging outside. That's pretty tough, but remember it's only on a small minority of jobs - and the trenches aren't all that deep. They might dig one day every two weeks, and they might need to run a jackhammer to bust up concrete once every three weeks or so.
Most days they have to carry tools from one location of the job to another, carry and cut pipe, drive to the supply house to pick up supplies, and do minor plumbing repairs. Since they aren't licensed plumbers, they can't do much of the actual "plumbing" they are only there for support. They're given the opportunity to apprentice into a trade, and work up to the plumbing which of course would mean higher wages.
But these kids don't want it - they want to sit somewhere in the air conditioning and be paid for not breaking a sweat. Funny how more than once they've called us back a few months later begging for their jobs back when they find out no one is knocking their door down to give them the jobs they believe they deserve to have.
The world doesn't just hand you a cushy job on a silver platter. I am sick of people looking at some jobs as being beneath them. I've worked for minimum wage before. I'd do it again in a heartbeat if my family needed me to. I can't even begin to explain to most of you how hard my husband works to take care of us.
Of course, there is one good thing to come out of this - with so few people being willing to take on trades anymore, it just makes skilled laborers that much more valuable. I know carpenters who charge more per hour than we pay our attorney and our CPA. CPAs and lawyers are a heckuva lot more numerous than good finish carpenters.
posted
As a resident of a border state, I see the problems firsthand. You go to McDonalds or Burger King and the person working the drive-thru doesn't speak English very well.
It's also hard to get a job if you don's speak Spanish.
I understand that things are bad in other parts of the world, but shouldn't people try to fix the problems instead of running from them?
Round up the illegals and ship them home.
By the way, I understand the point, but am not writing a paper.
The idea for this thread came from an ad on the radio. It features sirens and the person says"This is the sound of mass immigration in Arizona..."
The ad is trying to scare us into opposing the President's immigration plan.
Posts: 4569 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
As I've said before, my dad is a designer and cabinetmaker. For in the shop work, he charges $35 an hour and hasn't had the time to take a vacation in the last two years.
After years of making a very modest living as a writer, I'm seriously thinking of seeing if I can go back into the family business. I'd be the sixth generation of carpenters in the family.
Strangely, I don't feel bad about that as a prospect. Some of the best times of my life, and the best talks I've ever had left me brushing sawdust off of myself afterwards.
Of course, the book I'm trying to start writing now, Splinters of Generations is pretty much just about that: how each generation went its own way only to be drawn back to the wood.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:As a resident of a border state, I see the problems firsthand. You go to McDonalds or Burger King and the person working the drive-thru doesn't speak English very well.
As a resident of a border state, you should be well aware that a lot of legal immigrants and citizens, even second-generation citizens don't speak English very well, or at all. English is not and never has been a requirement of citizenship, nor is it the official language of the USA. We don't have one.
quote:Round up the illegals and ship them home.
How do we do this? First, where do we get the manpower? Second, where do we get the money? Third, where do we get the workers to replace the ones we are shipping out?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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When I said the Majority is against the law I had no information to back it up.
However, I do know that a large number of employers are giving these people jobs.
I do know that not enough people are against illegal immigration to give enough money in tax dollars to enforce the borders.
Rospiere, does that mean that every person who ever traded music files on the internet should be barred from every getting on line again. After all, they broke the law once. They will do it again.
You are an expert in free market values. Here is a situation where large market forces are running up against government beaurocracy and petty politics, and you stand for more government intervention?
Round them all up? OK. Who is going to pick the crops? Who is going to dig the ditches? Who is going to foot the enormous bill that would be required to 1) Find all these people, 2) Ship them back to their country, and 3) Make sure they don't cross again?
Mean while, the newest breed of organized crime, those who treat people as cocaine and want to make their fortunes sneaking them across the border, are worried sick that we might make border crossing easier.
Who do you think donates so heavilly to those True American Conservative Politicians that are trying to keep our borders safe from desperate labor? The Coyote's and thier handlers.
Just as the Mafia bought politicians and tried so hard to keep alcohol prohibited.
Someone said, "They should stay home and fix their own problems."
You are too used to America.
If you have a complaint you can try and fix our system, or change the politicians involved.
In Mexico and other Latin American countries that is nearly impossible. Try to hard to fix the system and you end up buried in the desert.
There is one way in which real change can and is being made. That is with MONEY. With enough money villages and communities are improving themselves.
And that money is being sent to them from their hard working people who sneak across the border and come to find work in the US.
That is money that the US doesn't need to give as aid.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: Rospiere, does that mean that every person who ever traded music files on the internet should be barred from every getting on line again. After all, they broke the law once. They will do it again.
Lets get this cleared up, Derrell said the following:
quote: i think that those who broke the law to get here should be sent back
I don't support the line of reasoning "once a criminal, always a criminal."
quote: You are an expert in free market values. Here is a situation where large market forces are running up against government beaurocracy and petty politics, and you stand for more government intervention?
Protecting the border is not petty politics. That is a responsibility specifically enumerated in the constitution. Right now, the congress is not taking this responsibility seriously. Just as protecting us from foreign militaries cannot be done by the private sector, nor can protecting the borders. It must be done by congress. The duties of congress are specific and limited, and immigration is one of those duties.
quote: That is money that the US doesn't need to give as aid.
The US doesn't need to give any money as aid. And in fact, it should avoid this fraud at all costs. All that aid accomplishes is the support of corrupt 3rd world governments.
Posts: 859 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: I am so tired of hearing the refrain "jobs that Americans don't want to do." Somehow we've turned out a bunch of people who think they are above being paid to do physical work for a living.
I can't tell you how many people my husband has hired in the last five years who quit because the work was "too hard." We offered $10/hr to people with no experience, and we reimbursed mileage and provided a cell phone. You could graduate from high school with no work experience and make over $20,000 a year not counting overtime (which is plentiful and we pay time and a half.)
We pay nearly twice the minimum wage and provide worker's compensation insurance. And people quit like crazy because the work was "too hard" What was too hard about it?
This boggles my mind. I don't know what area you live in, but I guarantee you that 99% of the rest of the country would have no problem doing whatever you needed done for 10 bucks an hour, no matter how hard it is.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:That is a responsibility specifically enumerated in the constitution.
Out of curiosity, where does it say that? I see "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States" (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1), but the only parts I see that seems to deal with borders are Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 ("To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization") and Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1 ("The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person").
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 ("To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization")
This means that the federal government is only entity which can make people citizens, that the states may not have a say in that. This is what requires the congress to determine the rules for citizenship. Also, the defense and general welfare clause could come into this, but that is open to interpretation.
quote: Article 1, Section 9, Clause 1
It would appear that this does not apply, since we are well past the year 1808. This states that the congress did NOT have the ability to stop immigration until 1808, which implies that after 1808, it does.
posted
[disclaimer - please forgive any development-speak, it's hard for me not to use jargon when discussing this topic]
quote:I understand that things are bad in other parts of the world, but shouldn't people try to fix the problems instead of running from them?
How can they fix any problem when they can't get a job because there are no jobs? Also, I’m not sure that I’d say they’re running away from the problems. Many immigrants, particularly those from Latin America, do not come planning on living the rest of their lives here. They send money and goods home to their family with the plan of returning home – it doesn’t always work out for them. If they no longer have family living in the area, they'll join a hometown association and send money along with others from their hometown to establish a school, a market, or something else that their community needs.
quote: The US doesn't need to give any money as aid. And in fact, it should avoid this fraud at all costs. All that aid accomplishes is the support of corrupt 3rd world governments.
You know, not all US aid goes to governments. An increasingly large portion of it is going directly to the people who will benefit from it. I can give you examples of all sorts of successful grass-roots projects that were designed and managed by the community and were supported by the US government. One of my favorite projects right now is a group in western Honduras that is training communities in the skills necessary to monitor the water quality and establish and maintain a viable sanitation system. The communities have the desire to improve their situation, they just lack the skills and resources to do so without outside asssitance.
quote: An increasingly large portion of it is going directly to the people who will benefit from it.
I don't fault your motives here, only the result. The source of the problem is not addressed. Lack of money and training is a sympton of the disease, not the sickness itself. The real problem is the authoritarian governments that restrict freedom and loot their countries for their personal benefit. While teaching people how to sanitize water supplies can have a positive local effect, it only delays the final reckoning of the people and their looter's government.
Posts: 859 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:This is what requires the congress to determine the rules for citizenship.
Requiring Congress to determine the rules for citizenship seems a bit different than requiring it to "protect our borders."
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
What a coincedence; we've just started studying immigration and labor in social studies!
I think that Dan has the best answer so far. Because people are going to keep trying to get to America, legally or illegally, unless we stop employing them (which would mean the prices of everything would be rased considerably). If we simply let them in and let them work they'll have what they want, which is money, and we'll have what we want, which is cheep labor so we can have more money.
Posts: 3420 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I live in michigan and i don't think we have "too much" of a problem with illegal immigrants... gotta love those shifty canadians . either that or i'm blissfully unaware of it . But to me illegal is still illegal. thats why we call it "illegal." i have seen and heard people say we should use the army to help patrol our borders. and in a way i agree with them. it makes a certain amount of sense to me. we have an active army, and it is relatively peaceful at the moment, so we should use them for something. patroling borders really shouldn't be too hard for them. and we were even seriously considering giving these people a driver's liscense? i believe it just goes to show how crazy this country has truely become. "work that americans don't want to do" thats just stupid. I work at k-mart for 8.25 an hour. sorry but that wage isn't gonna move me out of my parents house, or get me a new car, while i have to pay for college, just to keep my job from the "illegal immagrants." to the illegal immagrants that wage is a god send. to me it's the only way i can stay alive right now. sorry if i didn't make much sense, but i've had a bad week and to me the point is moot, our laws say they are illegal, and shouldn't be here in the first place, so yes i say ship them back.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I don't think much of the military is currently configured or trained to act as border guards. Setting them up to do so would be likely be a substantial investment. And I have yet to hear anyone give me any concrete examples of willing Americans losing their jobs to illegals. You say that you work and K-Mart for $8.25 an hour and you don't like it. Would you prefer to be out in the fields with a short-handled hoe for $5.25 an hour? Or underground in a damp, dark, stuffy, hot mushroom farm? These are the kinds of jobs that typically go to illegals, not retail.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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i forgot to put in my last post that i didn't think it was plausable to use the military as border guards. i just though it would be a good idea. as for me not liking my job...i do like it. i just know the reality of the situation. that being, i'm 20, in college, no car, making 8.25 an hour that can barely pay for my classes and books. I'll have to get a second job like most people seem to have in my area, to pay my bills that i have...about to be made much worse by having to buy a new/used car. sry if i don't sound thrilled about where my life is at. granted it could always be worse but the selfish devil in me wants it to be better. i could be picking mushrooms for 5.25 an hour...but i still think that it should go towards the LEGAL residents of the US.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
American is a nation of immigrants and we seem to forget that as a people. Immigrants, legal or illegal, are doing whatever they can to succeed in life. America is seen for the American Dream, that anyone who puts in hard work will succeed. Illegal aliens, undocumented workers, migrants, whatever label you use, do hard labor for little compensation. They have no health insurance, no worker's comp. Work is seasonal and they must move constantly. They are discriminated against, they have no rights, as citizens or as human beings.
But they believe in the dream or they wouldn't fight to stay.
These people put up with everything dumped onto them by "legal" Americans, a status only granted to most of us by luck of birth. We are privileged and it's our duty as the majority to help out the underprivileged.
Migrants do the crap work that Americans aren't doing, or how else would these people find this work?
These people struggle to learn the language spoken by the majority of people and have to put up with people looking down on them and making fun of them because they don't speak English. Speaking English doesn't make you better. A non-English speaker could be as elegantly spoken in their native language as any English speaker could in their native language. To them, our attempts to speak Spanish or any other language can be laughable.
When speaking other languages, we have accents, too.
The tired, the hungry, and the poor still flock to America.
posted
I know of at least one originally illegal American Immigrant. You gain some, you lose some.
As a rule, I am against illegal immigrants, merely because they are "illegal". However, I can see the immigrant's part far too easily to make it a clear cut issue.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
This thread makes me think of a couple of things. The first one is entirely relevant.
I live in a largely agricultural area of California, and in fact in a city in which the majority of the inhabitants are Hispanic. Additionally, I wouldn't be that surprised if up to ten percent of the population of my city is illegal. The truth of the matter is, it would be hard to get the crops harvested if not for illegal workers. Even with this human resource, it isn't all that unusual to see signs out during the harvest season (basically all summer) begging for field workers. Even so, it is very unusual - if not unknown - to see legal residents, Anglo or Hispanic, signing up for these jobs - this in an area that has been running an unemployment rate of between 15 and 17 per cent for a long time now.
Also, having known people who are illegal, or at least who were illegal when they first came to this country, I think it is important to understand that they do so as a last resort in the majority of cases. They can't support their families in their home country, so they have to do something. If they try to come here legally, they find that the waiting list is years long. They don't decide to come here illegally just for the fun of putting something over on someone.
In sum, I really think that something needs to be done to allow workers into this country. I'm not sure that the current proposal is that thing simply because I don't know that much about it yet.
Now, the second thing, which relates to Belle's semi-related rant. (And this is going to be a bit of rant, as well, I'm afraid.)
I'm getting really tired of being told that I "don't really want to work" because I won't take certain jobs. I would be happy to have any job that I can physically do. Unfortunately, I have arthritis in my knees, ankles, and hips, so that I can't take a job that requires me to stand up for hours on end. Heck, I was in the library today and after standing and looking at books for fifteen minutes I was in so much pain that I had to leave even though I wasn't finished looking.
Additionally, I can't take a job that requires me to do very much lifting. I have a hiatal (hiatus?) hernia that prevents me from doing that. Because of these two conditions, which are invisible to the naked eye, people seem to just assume that I think I'm "too good" to do physical work. And that really, really ticks me off. I've done physical work before, and if I were able to I'd do it again - I like to be able to do things like pay the rent and put food on the table.
End of rant - sorry, it's just been a particular bad week in relation to this topic, which I'm very sensitive about right now.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
The problem I have with the illegal immigrants is when they drain our resources. For example, my brother works at one of the hospitals here in town, one of the ones that get the most illegals. Of course these illegals don't have insurance or money to pay their costly hospital bills, so those of us who do pay our bills pay more to make up the difference. I would expect that if I went to another country and broke their laws to get in trouble. If you want to be here then follow our laws. I'm not sure what the solution is. Honestly I don't know enough about politics and the situation to come up with a solution, but I haven't seen one I can fully support yet either. I know of one lady who was here on a visa, married an american, had several children, raised them here and now is illegal because her visa expired. She has let so much time pass that she is afraid to even visit friends and family in Mexico because she is afraid she won't be allowed back in. It may sound less than compassionate but she created that problem for herself. Her actions show quite a bit of irresponsibility. Its definately a sticky issue.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
What do I think about illegal immigration? I think it's stupid -- the label, that is. The notion that we can regulation which travelers on the world stage have the right to work in some arbitrarily defined zone is pretty anachronistic. Incongruous and unfair, even, when the flow of labor is compared with the free reign granted to capital and (to a slightly lesser extent) goods.
America should certainly establish laws that govern the boundary of its political influence, and protect the people within from forces that oppose its principles. But discriminating between those people based on their origin? Ridiculous.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Wendybird--if your aquaintance married a US citizen, and stayed with him long enough to have several children with him, how is it that she didn't become a citizen? I thought that marrying a US citizen was one of the quick ways to become one yourself.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I know we've talked about this topic several times before, such as in This Thread
And I've thought a lot about it since hearing everyone else's views.
I used to be strongly opposed to illegal immigration -- mainly because of the "illegal" part. I think they should use every means possible to come LEGALLY, since that IS possible, instead of breaking the law. I really don't like lawbreaking at all.
However, I also have begun to look at it lately as a "walk in their shoes" thought. What if I had been born in Mexico in poverty (instead of born in poverty in America ). As a mother now, wouldn't I do WHATEVER it took in order to provide a better life for my family? Since we have never actually BEEN in their position, I'm not sure what we would do, but many of us might make the SAME choice -- sneak off to find a better life.
Since we already HAVE that better life, it is hard to imagine their drive to obtain it.
posted
I'm not sure what I think about immigration, except that in general I am opposed to isolationism and protectionism.
Also, US border patrol officers have more power to arbitrarily harm and demean people than anyone ever should. But that probably has more to do with the war on drugs than immigration.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I do wonder how we, as a nation, can look at people who flock to our borders with some form of disgust. Certainly in these times, we should look at folks coming to our borders with some suspicion, but we should welcome all of those coming here for a better life with our open arms.
One must remember that for the vast, and I mean vast, majority of us it was just a handful of generations ago that our ancestors came here -- poor, dejected and desperately hoping for a better life.
Let's look at the situation on our southern border, for really, that is what we are talking about. No one ever complains about Canadians or Europeans coming here to live. It is the Mexicans, or those we often times incorrectly label as Mexicans as if it was some racial epithet.
How desperate do you have to be to want to cross the barrens in Texas, Arizona or New Mexico just to make less than $6 an hour in a hostile environment doing the most menial and back breaking work we could imagine? Would you risk it all in the bed of a coyote's pick up truck just to spend all day bending and stooping to pick strawberries? Would you be willing to live in fear of deportation just for the chance at digging ditches at a construction site for $35 bucks a day and all the clean water you could drink? How about to spend the day sewing shirt pieces together at 5 cents per sleeve? With no mandatory breaks, health care or job security?
And yet, droves and droves of these people make that journey every day. Think about it. Every single day, people are desperate enough to CHOOSE to live like this. And they feel they are getting the better end of the deal, compared to staying back home.
Do you realize that if migrant workers, legal and illegal disappeared, the Western Union Corporation would go under just from the lost revenues from migrant workers wiring money home to their families? Or that the majority of American fruit and vegetable farms would go belly up for lack of affordable field hands? Or that your Christmas tree next year would cost about $150 for a 6 footer?
I say we need to shift our stance to a more proactive immigration policy. Establish immigration stations at the border and allow any Mexican who can provide a statement of background check entrance -- man, woman and child. Hand them a Green Card and a copy of the labor laws in Spanish then let them through a corridor with a metal detector and a drug/bomb sniffing dog.
Once they cross the border, have an employment recruiting center set up. Much like a job fair, employers could recruit the workers after filing with the immigration and labor departments so as to provide a guarantee of fair wages and working conditions. Child labor laws would also be clearly spelled out to each of the new immigrants. What is needed for citizenship would also be taught to each entrant.
We've got to do something to make legal immigration more feasible and accessible while providing at least a minimum of protection from predatory employers.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I support less barriers to the free movement of labor. It's a mistake in thinking that illegal workers = illegal immigrants. The workers who enter illegally and then stay on are forced to do so because if they leave, chances are they won't get back in. There will be much less pressure to immigrate if these workers know that they can get in and out of the country as long as they have a job waiting for them. The jobs and the money are what is important to them, not becoming American citizens. I mean, who would want to spend years and years away from friends and family if they don't have to?
The fact is, jobs are constantly being lost to foreign workers. All those clothes that you buy that were made in China, India, Argentina, etc., represent jobs lost overseas. Illegal immigrants have nothing to do with it. In their case, it only seems so because it's more efficient for them to go to where the jobs are instead of the jobs moving to where they are.
Posts: 176 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I think some things should be addressed directly in order to decide whether or not illegal immigration is a problem.
Personally, I believe legal American citizens, particularly the middle-class and up benefit a great deal more from illegal immigration than they lose. Middle-class Americans don't even consider taking the jobs that illegal immigrants take, and in fact take advantage of those illegal immigrants by way of getting reduced prices on goods and services those illegal immigrants provide. Even legal, new immigrants to America, from lawn-maintenance to fast-food to all sorts of low-paying jobs that make our generally luxurious lifestyles possible.
I believe this is true, and that frankly the people losing something due to illegal immigration aren't the ones spending time posting on Internet forums on a weekday. The legal Americans most hurting from illegal immigration are those Americans who might consider taking very poorly paying jobs.
Granted there are numerous drawbacks to illegal immigration. From citizens who take advantage of infrastructure without paying taxes, to the uninsured (health and auto), to drawing jobs away from legal American citizens. I personally think these drawbacks are far outweighed by the benefits, and that's just on a practical scale.
On a moral, cultural scale, I frankly think the idea of disdain and contempt for illegal immigrants is laughable and hypocritical. The vast majority of people complaining about the damage done to America by illegal immigrants are the people most likely to exploit those illegal immigrants (which is not entirely wicked-those illegal immigrants are after all volunteering). They also seem to forget that we are a nation founded on immigration, legal and otherwise.
There would be no America if some outcasts from other, more affluent nations didn't "run away from their problems instead of trying to make things better where they come from". The great waves of immigration into America that fueled our Industrial Revolution and culture since our birth were born of people who "ran away from their problems". Frankly I think there should be more immigration. I'm just enough of a Social Darwinist not to have much patience for people who want a safe harbor.
quote:I work at k-mart for 8.25 an hour. sorry but that wage isn't gonna move me out of my parents house, or get me a new car, while i have to pay for college, just to keep my job from the "illegal immagrants." to the illegal immagrants that wage is a god send. to me it's the only way i can stay alive right now. sorry if i didn't make much sense, but i've had a bad week and to me the point is moot, our laws say they are illegal, and shouldn't be here in the first place, so yes i say ship them back.
Whose fault is it you work at K-Mart? Illegal immigrants? You need a brand spanking new car because? Why not buy used? You're a kid living in your parents house. Obviously a new car is beyond your means. Whose fault is it you don't have some sort of financial aid, and if you do, what the hell are you whining about? Illegal immigrants are hardly getting hired at K-Mart anyway. To get hired at a K-Mart, you have to have things like a Social Security number, a driver's license, proof of citizenship. Forging such things takes money. Illegal immigrants ain't got money.
Know where you'd be if you were one of those "illegal immigrants"? You'd be making half your wage, living with perhaps a half dozen people in a sixth of the space, calling your parents if they have a phone, and sending a big hunk of your paycheck back home. I don't care if it's illegal, people like you really don't have much business whining about how tough life is and complaining about illegal immigration.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Meanwhile, I suggest you talk to the African farmers whose only viable commodity is undercut by American grain exports. Or the people in developing countries that linked their currency to the dollar during the recent 30% slide. Really, compared with the free flow of the other classical means of production, labor is rather minor.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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A funny thing happened to my brother. He's coming back from Spain today after seeing his girlfriend over there, and he went out to eat with her and her mother. There they had a long conversation about the current immigration problem in Spain, an argument in which the girlfriend was all for the compassion side of the situation, IE: pity for the immigrants, lend them a helping hand. Her mother took the opposite view.
Upon returning to the parking lot they found that a Moroccan immigrant had broken into their car and stolen my brother's cd player. The girlfriend gave chase, but he got away.
I probably do not need to mention that the mother took no time at all in pointing out the irony of the event.
I know that this has nothing to do with the American issue, but it's still funny. Continue on with the seriousness.
[ January 16, 2004, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:I thought that marrying a US citizen was one of the quick ways to become one yourself
You would think so huh? I thought so. However my husband has a friend who married a Japanese girl, here in the States. They had one child here then he graduated and took a job in Japan teaching English. Financially they couldn't make it over there and decided to move back to the States. He came and started work but she still, after months and months and months, cannot get a visa to come to the states with her 2 daughters and join her husband. She is trying to get here legally.
I do feel sorry for these immigrants. They do have horribly hard lives. And I agree that a better solution needs to be found. However I really get irritated with this current opinion that people who are here ILLEGALLY are entitled to U.S. drivers licenses and U.S. taxpayer funded programs. These people may work here but don't pay taxes to our country do they? We have plenty of our own people who need help.
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I'm not sure I'd say "entitled", even though so long as they're not paid exclusively under the table the do pay taxes...
...the fact remains that they still sacrifice a great deal and help make our standard of living possible, and are also a small percentage of our population.
Once they have driver's licenses and can legally get aid from tax-based programs, it's not long until they're paying taxes themselves.
There are very few Americans today who can, if they look back in their family tree, not find immigrants and often "illegal" immigrants in their history. Immigrants who, like the illegals today, are desperate for financial opportunity however slim and are willing to work themselves to the bone to get it.
Illegal immigrants are already helping themselves so much more than are the average legal American citizen.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: To get hired at a K-Mart, you have to have things like a Social Security number, a driver's license, proof of citizenship. Forging such things takes money. Illegal immigrants ain't got money.
quote: These people may work here but don't pay taxes to our country do they?
Granted, most of the illegals I know are certainly better off than the stereotype of the migrant farm workers, but every single illegal I know has a forged green card that cost them $50. Most of them work jobs where taxes, social security and other things are withheld from their salaries that they will, in general not benefit from. Again, as I said this is not the majority of illegals but it's a lot more common than you might think.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I'm not sure I understand, Risuena. Are you saying taxes are withheld from their paychecks because they don't have SS cards? (This is not the same thing as having a Green Card) Or they're being withheld because their income isn't high enough anyway?
Even if it is more common than I might think, I still say Americans-most especially middle-class and up Americans-benefit a great deal more from illegal immigration and immigration than they lose.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sopwith, your Dad needs to raise his prices! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
. either that or i'm blissfully unaware of it ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
. But to me illegal is still illegal. thats why we call it "illegal." i have seen and heard people say we should use the army to help patrol our borders. and in a way i agree with them. it makes a certain amount of sense to me. we have an active army, and it is relatively peaceful at the moment, so we should use them for something. patroling borders really shouldn't be too hard for them. and we were even seriously considering giving these people a driver's liscense? i believe it just goes to show how crazy this country has truely become. "work that americans don't want to do" thats just stupid. I work at k-mart for 8.25 an hour. sorry but that wage isn't gonna move me out of my parents house, or get me a new car, while i have to pay for college, just to keep my job from the "illegal immagrants." to the illegal immagrants that wage is a god send. to me it's the only way i can stay alive right now. sorry if i didn't make much sense, but i've had a bad week ![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
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and to me the point is moot, our laws say they are illegal, and shouldn't be here in the first place, so yes i say ship them back.
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wants it to be better. i could be picking mushrooms for 5.25 an hour...but i still think that it should go towards the LEGAL residents of the US.
