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I'm not making arguments, I'm asking questions. But I don't have time at work to process the answers too well right now.
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quote:On a more personal level, I've been doing a lot of serious soul-searching. I've been a Christian for a few years, but recently, a few very serious doubts have come to mind(I'm not going to discuss those here- they're WAY too personal). I believe in God, however, and I love him with all my heart. It's Christ I'm doubting. Due to this, I've seriously been looking at Judaism. Unfortunately, I have a few problems. 1.- I don't know of any synagogues in my area, and I don't know any Jews in my area that I could talk to to find out more. 2.-I love bacon. 3.-My parents would never support a decision like that. 4.-I love bacon. 5.-I'm hopelessly ignorant of just about everything Jewish. 6.-I love bacon.
Yes. Why become Jewish? How about being a Noachide?
This may sound crazy, but when it comes to spiritual things, I follow my heart. And right now my heart is telling me I would be missing something. I love God with all my heart, and I want to show that- I just don't know how. Is being Jewish the right thing? Is being protestant the right thing? What about Catholicism? I know I would never be satisfied just sitting here waiting for the end of my life, when I can talk to God in person and ask Him if my choices are right. I want to be able to devote myself wholly to Him. I want to have a group of people for support who are doing the same thing(that's my definition of a "church"). I want to be the best person I can possibly be. But I don't know how to do that.
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posted
You say you would be missing something, but I know quite a number of Noachides who are happy and fulfilled in their lives. I wonder how you can dismiss the notion as casually as you seem to be doing?
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I looked over the seven laws for Noachides. I realized something: Those seven laws are the foundation of everything I've been doing in my life. I've been struggling to do those since... well, since I can remember. And I still feel like I'm missing something. Like there's something more I can do to be showing my devotion to God.
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posted
I'm going to have to miss the upsherin for my good friend's son. What do y'all think would be an appropriate gift to send?
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Yeah, ok, the old testament, the torah. But, you're taking it literally. Which goes along with what the Jews wanted to happen. Good stuff happening to the Jews, here on earth.
When I said that, I was actually thinking directly back to what Lisa said and wondering where that all came from:
quote:Jesus was not a king. Descent from David doesn't make one a king. If it did, we'd be inundated by kings. Also, the Christian view is that Jesus was not the blood son of Joseph, and while Jewishness is determined matrilineally, tribal and familial relationships are determined patrilineally. To be a legitimate king of the Davidic dynasty, your father must be a direct descendant of David as well. Adoption doesn't count.
The Messiah needs to do a number of things. He needs to actually lead the Jews. Jesus didn't do this. He needs to bring the exiled Jews back to Israel. Jesus didn't do this. He needs to restore and/or strengthen our sovereignty there, and Jesus didn't do this. He needs to bring Jews closer to God and the Torah, and Jesus did the exact opposite.
More than anything, he needs not to die in the middle of it all.
And that's what I meant about good things happening here on earth.
Whereas, Catholicism thinks that he did all those things, but for the heavenly Israel, not the earthly Israel. For forever, not here on this earth. He widened the circle of God's people to the world, not just the Jews, and brings them all closer to God. Which sounds like a wonderful thing.
And the Jewish understanding of the Messiah's coming relates to the Jews having a new king and new Israel on earth, right? Isn't that supposed to be a wonderful thing?
Lately I've been thinking that the main difference between the Jews and the Christians was this interpretation, right here. I suppose the (Jewish) answer is that it is written that it will happen the way you have described, therefore, you must wait for that prophecy to be fulfilled just exactly as it says, literally, or you'll be in big trouble again for idol woship.
posted
Also, I guess I don't know what is supposed to happen after the Jewish Messiah comes and fulfills all these prophecies. Does everyone live happily ever after, then? Or... more of the same? Follow all the laws and try not to let Him down again?
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: I think a personalized kippah would be perfect. I don't want to get him tzitzis b/c I think he's already getting a bunch.
There are SOOOO many. But these look cute.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Why become Jewish? How about being a Noachide?
This may sound crazy, but when it comes to spiritual things, I follow my heart. And right now my heart is telling me I would be missing something.
Maybe you should take a look at it. Being a Noachide isn't "second best". It really isn't. If I were to find out that -- oops -- my great-grandmother wasn't actually Jewish, I wouldn't convert. I'd be a Noachide.
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I love God with all my heart, and I want to show that- I just don't know how. Is being Jewish the right thing? Is being protestant the right thing? What about Catholicism?
I'd say doing God's will, no? And from a Torah perspective, you don't have to become Jewish to do God's will.
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Yeah, ok, the old testament, the torah. But, you're taking it literally. Which goes along with what the Jews wanted to happen. Good stuff happening to the Jews, here on earth.
When I said that, I was actually thinking directly back to what Lisa said and wondering where that all came from:
quote:Jesus was not a king. Descent from David doesn't make one a king. If it did, we'd be inundated by kings. Also, the Christian view is that Jesus was not the blood son of Joseph, and while Jewishness is determined matrilineally, tribal and familial relationships are determined patrilineally. To be a legitimate king of the Davidic dynasty, your father must be a direct descendant of David as well. Adoption doesn't count.
The Messiah needs to do a number of things. He needs to actually lead the Jews. Jesus didn't do this. He needs to bring the exiled Jews back to Israel. Jesus didn't do this. He needs to restore and/or strengthen our sovereignty there, and Jesus didn't do this. He needs to bring Jews closer to God and the Torah, and Jesus did the exact opposite.
More than anything, he needs not to die in the middle of it all.
And that's what I meant about good things happening here on earth.
Whereas, Catholicism thinks that he did all those things, but for the heavenly Israel, not the earthly Israel. For forever, not here on this earth. He widened the circle of God's people to the world, not just the Jews, and brings them all closer to God. Which sounds like a wonderful thing.
And the Jewish understanding of the Messiah's coming relates to the Jews having a new king and new Israel on earth, right? Isn't that supposed to be a wonderful thing?
It'd be more wonderfuller if it'd already happened. But the point is, God's plan for the world isn't just for Israel. We have a role in it, but it's for everyone. The world after the Messiah comes and accomplishes his stuff is supposed to be good for everyone. Compare that to... well, how've the past couple of millenia been for most people? I think we're hoping for better than that.
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Lately I've been thinking that the main difference between the Jews and the Christians was this interpretation, right here. I suppose the (Jewish) answer is that it is written that it will happen the way you have described, therefore, you must wait for that prophecy to be fulfilled just exactly as it says, literally, or you'll be in big trouble again for idol woship.
Hmmm.
Not really. The idolatry thing isn't about seeing someone as the Messiah who wasn't. You're confusing Messiah and God again. Rabbi Akiva wasn't an idolator for thinking that Bar Kochva was the Messiah. It would have been great had he been right. He turned out not to be. Those who believed Jesus was the Messiah prior to his death (again, I'm stipulating to that without accepting it as historically accurate) weren't idolators either.
We believe that God tells us things for a reason.
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Also, I guess I don't know what is supposed to happen after the Jewish Messiah comes and fulfills all these prophecies. Does everyone live happily ever after, then? Or... more of the same? Follow all the laws and try not to let Him down again?
We have vague outlines of it. The main answer is, "We'll see when it happens". But some general answers:
Every nation in the world will worship God at least once a year at the Temple in Jerusalem. Those who don't won't get rain.
The whole "lion laying down with the lamb" thing will happen, either literally or figuratively. The world will be a good place in which to live. And yes, for everyone.
The role of Jews will be to be teachers, primarily. That's what we've been for all along. Keepers of God's knowledge for the purpose of sharing it with everyone.
The purpose of Levites used to be like that. When God gave us the Land of Canaan, He divided it amongst us by tribe. The Levites lived among the other tribes, rather than in a tribal area of their own, and were the teachers of the people. That was their job. As I understand it, our job is going to pretty much be like that. Of course, to a certain extent, it has been all along, even prior to the Messiah, but I suspect that afterwards, there'll be a little less of the pogromming and pillaging to go with it.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Where would I find such a community?
Here's a good place to start (and this is its companion group).
I'd be more likely to recommend The Noachide Fellowship (Noah Institute). The above links are too closely affiliated with Lubavitch Hassidism, which has become a little problematic.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I looked over the seven laws for Noachides. I realized something: Those seven laws are the foundation of everything I've been doing in my life. I've been struggling to do those since... well, since I can remember. And I still feel like I'm missing something. Like there's something more I can do to be showing my devotion to God.
Well from another prospective, one option is charity work. Instead of going to shul like the Jews every Saturday, spend the day doing good deeds for others. Soup kitchens, helping the elderly, habitat for humanity, or maybe even a dog shelter.
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posted
How long is the earth supposed to go on after the Messiah comes? Forever? People will still get old and die during this time, right?
I like it that the whole world is involved in this concept. And nations that don't go along with it get droughts? Interesting.
Given Jewish history, isn't it likely that this golden age will last a few years, or a few decades, and then go back into error, like with David and Saul and the Golden Calf? Or won't that be possible after the Messiah?
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: How long is the earth supposed to go on after the Messiah comes? Forever? People will still get old and die during this time, right?
<shrug> Dunno. Honestly, we don't have any kind of clear and indisputable picture of the period, except for a small number of things.
For example, we know there's going to be a resurrection of the dead. We know the Messiah is going to come. We know that there's a world to come. But which is which and what comes first and so on? Will people die again after the resurrection? Will people be in the world to come after they die, but come back here for the resurrection? We don't know that stuff.
There are sources which speak of us having bodies (though not like our current ones) in the world to come. Some people (me, for example) are curious about such things. Most people aren't. I have a picture of some of what may happen that's consistent (to the best of my knowledge) with the sources that we do have, but being consistent with doesn't mean it's a unique solution, if you know what I mean. There could be other pictures that are just as consistent with the sources.
The long and short of it is, we'll find out eventually, so why is it important? It's not something that should even enter into whether or not we do what God tells us. We're not selfless, but neither are we bucking for heavenly brownie points.
In Pirkei Avot (Chapters of Basic Principles), Antigonus of Socho taught that we shouldn't be like a servant who serves his master in order to receive a reward. Rather, we should be like servants who serve their master even without hope of a reward. The Sadducees were founded by one of his disciples who misunderstood this to be implying that there was no reward and punishment for our actions. There is, but that's not supposed to be part of our motivation. And the fact that we don't know a lot about it sort of forces that issue. If we had more info, it'd be awfully hard not to take that into account, right?
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: I like it that the whole world is involved in this concept. And nations that don't go along with it get droughts? Interesting.
Given Jewish history, isn't it likely that this golden age will last a few years, or a few decades, and then go back into error, like with David and Saul and the Golden Calf? Or won't that be possible after the Messiah?
No, that's the whole point. Though I'm not sure what you mean by David and Saul.
I will tell you a few other things we know... and I have to admit that I debated with myself over whether this was a good idea to mention or not.
One other event that's connected is the whole Gog and Magog thing. That's a war that's going to happen in Israel, where Israel gets invaded by other countries from two sides, and God intervenes catastrophically. This event is going to be so major that in the same way the Exodus and Revelation at Sinai are now considered the seminal events in Jewish history, this new event will replace them as the biggest event.
When we say Kaddish in synagogue, it's an affirmation and/or prayer for this event. It's called the Great and Awesome Day of God. We even know the date on which it's going to happen. Just not what year.
See, the Jewish year is a cycle. The holidays we observe are characteristic of the day on which they happened. For example, on the 9th of Av, both Temples were destroyed, the Jews were expelled from Spain, and lots of other nasty things happened. The characteristic of this day is one of extreme exile or redemption, and in fact, tradition tells us the Messiah will be born on the 9th of Av. But this day was set for that stuff even before the actually events happened on them. The 9th of Av was the day that the spies in the desert came back from spying out Canaan and gave their evil report, but the day was one of either extreme redemption or its opposite even before then.
Similarly, Hanukkah is on the 25th day of Kislev. That day was also the day on which the Tabernacle was completed and dedicated in the desert. It's a day for that kind of thing.
The Great and Awesome Day of God is like that. We even have a name for it nowadays: Hoshana Rabbah (the Great Hosanna). It's the 7th day of the Sukkot holiday. And it's a weird holiday, because its main event hasn't happened yet.
When this happens, the catastrophe is going to be global. Either 2/3 or 8/9 of the world's population is going to be wiped out. Geography will change. Everything will change.
And... it'll happen when it happens. But this day and the Exodus are sort of like bookends for history. Everything before the Exodus and everything after the GaADoG are essentially different from the time between those two events.
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quote:Jesus was not a king. Descent from David doesn't make one a king. If it did, we'd be inundated by kings.
I've been mulling over what it WOULD take for a son of David to be a real king. God could just say it, and it would be so, right? Or is there some more earthly way for it, like a son of David marries a queen of another land and they have a son together. That wouldn't automatically be the Messiah, but would be one of the signs that he could be?
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: That's pretty cool, I have to say.
quote:Jesus was not a king. Descent from David doesn't make one a king. If it did, we'd be inundated by kings.
I've been mulling over what it WOULD take for a son of David to be a real king. God could just say it, and it would be so, right? Or is there some more earthly way for it, like a son of David marries a queen of another land and they have a son together. That wouldn't automatically be the Messiah, but would be one of the signs that he could be?
It's fairly simple. A king isn't necessarily a monarch. He's the head of the nation. God declaring someone king doesn't make them the head of the nation in practice. Between the anointing of David and the death of Saul, neither one of them was fully the king of Israel. That's why David's reign isn't counted until after Saul's death. A teacher or rabbi isn't the head of the nation unless he's the head of the nation, you know?
And in terms of identifying someone as the Messiah, he has to be okayed by the high court. They have to vet him according to every piece of information we have.
Of course, what Maimonides says (Laws of Kings 11:4) is that:
quote:If a King arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments, as did his ancestor David, observes the precepts prescribed in the Written and the Oral Law, prevails upon Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the battles of the Lord, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.
If he does these things and succeeds, rebuilds the Sanctuary on its site, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is beyond all doubt the Messiah. He will prepare the whole world to serve the Lord as it is written: For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they may all call upon the Name of the Lord to serve Him with one consent (Zephaniah 3:9).
But if he does not meet with full success, or is slain, it is obvious that he is not the Messiah promised in the Torah. He is to be regarded like all the other wholehearted and worthy kings of the House of David who died and whom the Holy One, blessed be He, raised up to test the multitude, as it is written: And some of them that are wise shall stumble, to refine among them, and to purify, and to make white, even to the time of the end; for it is yet for the time appointed (Daniel 11:35).
So we have the concept of a presumed Messiah. And he needn't be a king, literally. He has to be a patrilineal descendent of David and the son of a Jewish mother, and he has to be the ruler of Israel.
If someone rises to the head of Israel and does the things Maimonides mentions at the beginning of that quote, he has a presumption of being the Messiah. But then he has to do other things before it's certain. No one has done those yet.
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Thanks, Rivka. I'm looking into it... I think I'll try it for a while. I read on one of those sites, however, that Gentiles are not allowed to celebrate the sabbath in the same way that Jews are. How, then, could a gentile go to a synagogue to check it out?(I think someone asked if they could go, and the answer was yes)
I also have another question: Do the Jews believe that you can pray to God as a friend? As in, tell Him anything, talk to Him about everything? And do you believe that you have to use formal language when you pray?
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posted
Looking over these past conversations, I have another question.
Christians believe that Jesus will return someday to set up a thousand-year Kingdom on Earth, where he will rule the entire earth. What I've noticed in these previous conversations is that the main reason Jesus isn't considered the Messiah by Jews is that he didn't actually rule.
Is it possible, if Jesus were to do as he said and return to set up a thousand-year Kingdom, that he could BECOME the Messiah when that kingdom is actually set up? Is it possible that, the first time he came, 2000 years ago, he was just coming to start getting things set up for when he actually DID become the Messiah? To tell the world(which he actually did, historically) that the gentiles can be in God's kingdom right along with the Jews?
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How hard do you think this many thousands of years after David would it be to determine the claim that someone is of patrilineal descendent? I know DNA has been found to trace many Jews back to certain officially unknown individuals, but without David's DNA that would not be exactly accurate.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: How, then, could a gentile go to a synagogue to check it out?(I think someone asked if they could go, and the answer was yes)
I remember as a child my father taking me on vacation once to some city, and we stopped to check out an Orthodox shul. I recall the Rabbi inviting us to services, even though my father is not Jewish.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Thanks, Rivka. I'm looking into it... I think I'll try it for a while. I read on one of those sites, however, that Gentiles are not allowed to celebrate the sabbath in the same way that Jews are. How, then, could a gentile go to a synagogue to check it out?(I think someone asked if they could go, and the answer was yes)
Going to shul (synagogue) isn't an issue. It's observing all the laws of Shabbat. Actually, when someone is in the process of converting to Judaism, they are instructed to do at least one thing each Shabbat that would be forbidden if they were Jewish. It's because Shabbat is a gift that God gave to the Jews.
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I also have another question: Do the Jews believe that you can pray to God as a friend? As in, tell Him anything, talk to Him about everything? And do you believe that you have to use formal language when you pray?
You can talk to God whenever you want. Well, you probably shouldn't in the bathroom. We consider going before God to be analogous to going before a king. Only more so. Just as you wouldn't go before a king naked or in messy clothes, or lightly, so too should you not approach God that way.
Most of our prayers are in Hebrew, but with very few exceptions, they can be said in any language.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Looking over these past conversations, I have another question.
Christians believe that Jesus will return someday to set up a thousand-year Kingdom on Earth, where he will rule the entire earth. What I've noticed in these previous conversations is that the main reason Jesus isn't considered the Messiah by Jews is that he didn't actually rule.
Is it possible, if Jesus were to do as he said and return to set up a thousand-year Kingdom, that he could BECOME the Messiah when that kingdom is actually set up?
Nope. Not even theoretically. He's not patrilineally descended from David.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: How hard do you think this many thousands of years after David would it be to determine the claim that someone is of patrilineal descendent? I know DNA has been found to trace many Jews back to certain officially unknown individuals, but without David's DNA that would not be exactly accurate.
It's not that hard, really. There's a concept of legal presumption. It's different than mathematical proof, but it's good enough. There are some families which are known to be of Davidic descent.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Looking over these past conversations, I have another question.
Christians believe that Jesus will return someday to set up a thousand-year Kingdom on Earth, where he will rule the entire earth. What I've noticed in these previous conversations is that the main reason Jesus isn't considered the Messiah by Jews is that he didn't actually rule.
Is it possible, if Jesus were to do as he said and return to set up a thousand-year Kingdom, that he could BECOME the Messiah when that kingdom is actually set up?
Nope. Not even theoretically. He's not patrilineally descended from David.
Again with the assumption that Jesus is a historical figure, if one were didn't believe that he is the Son of God, then he would be Joseph's son and so would be patrilineally descended from David. If I am reading Matthew correctly.
That's a lot of assumption, but it seems to be either son of Joseph or son of God.
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Except that Mary was pregnant before her marriage to Joseph, and he was troubled by it. Although theoretically if it was some other man who fathered the child, that man could have been descended from David.
A group of us awhile back were talking about what life was like for Jewish families in the time of Jesus, and how strictly Mary would have been watched. Like, she wouldn't have been anywhere outside her house without being guarded by other family members. And the inner part of the house, where she would have spent most of her time, would have been hard for a human man, any man, to penetrate. Not to say it couldn't have been done, though.
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posted
If Jesus is the son of a human (Joseph or not), then doesn't most of Christian doctrine fall a part? What would be so special about him then?
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Theaca: I suspect that in poorer Jewish families the role of women was nowhere near as protected as you hypothesize, on average.
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That's to be expected. But I thought Mary came from well to do parents. Weren't they rather rich, and Mary their only child?
But it isn't my hypothesis. It was just a conversation of a group of people around Christmastime. I wish I could remember who led the conversation so I could look up their sources.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: If Jesus is the son of a human (Joseph or not), then doesn't most of Christian doctrine fall a part? What would be so special about him then?
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Absolutely nothing.
You mean miracles and the ressurection don't count for anything?
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Ummm, I don't understand you, Tinros. If Jesus isn't God, then none of that really happened. It's kind of all or none, for Christians. Isn't it? You know, the whole Trinity thing?
Mormon belief may be an exception to that, but you aren't LDS, Tinros.
(edit to add: most of us don't worship a man who did miracles, but a God who came down to earth and died and then rose again. There's a big difference)
posted
Not being born of a virgin doesn't make him "not God." There have been cases when God inhabitied a personal form. maybe Christ was born of Mary and Joseph, but instead of giving him a soul, like the rest of us, God Himself inhabited Jesus.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Most of our prayers are in Hebrew, but with very few exceptions, they can be said in any language.
Any chance you could mention what those exceptions are?
Hmm... true is, I don't recall offhand. I remember being taught that, but it was never something that mattered to me practically. I think the Shema has to be said in Hebrew. The priestly blessing does as well, I think, since it uses direct quotes from the Torah. But in all honesty, I don't remember. I know that the Amidah, which is the centerpiece of every prayer service, can definitely be said in whatever language works best for you, though Hebrew is always to be preferred, because there's no such thing as a good translation. Merely less bad ones.
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Is it possible, if Jesus were to do as he said and return to set up a thousand-year Kingdom, that he could BECOME the Messiah when that kingdom is actually set up?
Nope. Not even theoretically. He's not patrilineally descended from David.
Again with the assumption that Jesus is a historical figure, if one were didn't believe that he is the Son of God, then he would be Joseph's son and so would be patrilineally descended from David. If I am reading Matthew correctly.
That's a lot of assumption, but it seems to be either son of Joseph or son of God.
That is a lot of assumptions. Given all that, he could be a legitimate descendant of David. But then he'd have to repent for things like the cornfield bit, and the vandalism in the Temple and so on. I'm just saying, that a person, detached from the divine stuff, who did the things ascribed to him in the Christian Bible... well, he'd have a lot to work on before he could be any kind of Jewish leader, let alone king or president or prime minister or whatnot.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: If Jesus is the son of a human (Joseph or not), then doesn't most of Christian doctrine fall a part? What would be so special about him then?
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: Absolutely nothing.
You mean miracles and the ressurection don't count for anything?
Between Elijah and Elisha, I don't think there's much Jesus did in the way of miracles that hadn't already been done. They each resurrected the dead, Elisha doing so even after his own death. Making an axhead float has got to be a match for walking on water. Fish and loaves? Elisha did it. Same with healing lepers. And Elijah went up into heaven in a fiery chariot. But no one ever suggested that either of these men was a deity.
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I thought the Messiah was supposed to protest the problems in the temple? Is knocking over tables of the moneychangers considered vandalism, or what are you referring to?
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: I thought the Messiah was supposed to protest the problems in the temple? Is knocking over tables of the moneychangers considered vandalism, or what are you referring to?
The Messiah isn't above the law. If there was something wrong with what was going on in the Temple, there are ways to deal with it. If it just offended him, well, tough on him.
Each king of Israel is required to write a complete Torah scroll (or have one written) and to carry it with him at all times. This is to make it impossible for him to forget that he is not above the laws of the Torah. We were the first constitutional monarchy.
quote:Originally posted by Theaca: What's the cornfield bit?
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not vice versa". That's poorly done sophistry for violating God's law. Sure, if you're starving, and the only way to obtain food is by harvesting it on Shabbat, you do it. But if you're strolling through a corn field and get hungry, there's such a thing as self-control.
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"Mormon belief may be an exception to that"
Hardly. Mormons are just as much Christians in the viewpoint of Jesus as Christ as any others. As StarLisa pointed out in her critical way, if he wasn't divine than there wasn't much special about what he did.
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