posted
What is the Jewish perspective on Adam and Eve's doings in the Garden of Eden? As in, what would the world be like if they had never taken the fruit?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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"This thread is NOT for politics or attacks on anyone's beliefs."
Just to be clear, Rivka, I wasn't attacking your beliefs. I was genuinely trying to understand why you chose to believe that God cares deeply -- even to the point of costing someone salvation -- about things that even you freely admit are not only trivial but ultimately whimsical.
Your links provide an answer which helps make your acceptance of this whimsy clearer, but I must admit that it's one that I -- as someone who does not start from a position of faith -- can't quite accept.
The reason I asked about whether or not you would have converted to Judaism if you had been introduced to it late in life is tied into this, to some extent, and also into your previous discussion of Jewish "recruitment" (or lack thereof); the idea that God's commandments DON'T actually matter, except insofar that they matter to God, is one that I cannot believe would be easy for anyone passionate about their faith to reconcile with their own philosophies.
I guess, ultimately, I'm just amazed by the variety of different answers produced by Jewish apologists: God laid down hundreds of tiny restrictions so that we can't go a single day without obeying at least one of them, thus generating a tiny good deed that makes Him happy; we can't actually know what's a big deal and what isn't; breaking these laws gives us the opportunity to confess our sins, which teaches us a number of moral lessons; salvation comes through a combination of good works and constant thoughtfulness of God, and trying to obey hundreds of very specific rules ensure that we are regularly forced out of the material world to consider our faith -- often with every purchase. I was wondering if most Jews find these arguments internally consistent, and believe that they would be effective in convincing someone who is not already inclined to strict Judaism.
I've been trying to understand the fundamentalist mindset, lately -- Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. And of them all, to be honest, fundamentalist Judaism confuses me most of all -- which is probably why my questions are on their face so direct and offensive.
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There is a world of difference between Orthodox and fundamentalist, I think.
I know you weren't asking me, but I feel like answering anyway. I dunno, maybe just know the tree by its fruit. rivka is already the answer to the question of why. She's just so great. Can't you feel it? Don't you think she must be doing something right to be that way?
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Oh! Oh! Rivka! I must tell you something! I went to temple on Saturday for the first time.
Deep breath.
*meekly* wow.
I have so many thoughts in my head but am unable to verbalize them to my satisfation. I will try to convey a few feelings at least.
Well, maybe I should give you a little Val history first...Birth: mother (at the age of 18) refused to have her daughter baptised, saying it would be my decision when the time came. I went through school never really understanding why my Christian friends were "unavailable" on Sunday mornings.
In middle school, I met the most wonderful teacher, Ms. Derry. In her English class, she opened the doors to the wonderful world of literature. An entire semester was devoted to learning about the Holocaust. We read the Diary of Anne Frank, Night, Day, and many others. I emersed myself in studying unlike I have ever done before. This was the year that Schlinder's List came out in the theaters. As extra credit, we could go see the movie and write a report. I jumped at the chance.
I sobbed the entire night. My mom told me recently that she remembers that time. It was the first time I ever came home after a movie and walked straight into my room and didn't say a word. I couldn't say a word. There were no words for what I was feeling.
That was my first taste of real human suffering, something I never had never experienced. The next great emotion was compassion. I made it my duty to read more on the subject and encourage my friends to learn about it to.
High school proved to be, well, to put it mildly, distracting. I strayed from my studies and became a tried and true teen, self-absorbed and immune to the world. After high school I met a friend of a friend who was Orthodox Jew. She answered a few of my questions but she moved back to New York to be with family, so I never got a chance to learn more from her.
Fast forward 4 years to Hatrack...met Rivka... Rivka spent quite a few hours answering my questions via AIM and most recently, email. Now, it came to be that I have been having lots of money problems lately and my mom said I could earn a few bucks by cleaning her house once a week. I was cleaning the basement bookshelf and what book was staring at me but, Choosing a Jewish Life ? I read it in one night. I asked my mom the next day why she had that book, see my mother is not a religious person. She said that our mutual friend Sarah had converted a while back and she loaned that book to my mom to answer some common questions.
I called Sarah. She was so excited that I wanted to learn that she invited me to attend a study group and services at Temple Israel on Saturday. Ok, cool! Saturday morning I was greeted with bagels and warm faces. We spend the study time reading and discussing the finer points of Moses' birth and first conversation with God. These people encouraged each other to ask questions and debate! This was a very strange thing to see. As a child my grandmother would sometimes let me attend mass with her. A debate, before or after services would never happen.
The service itself was confusing at times but enlighening never the less. Afterwards, I was invited by several women to attend a Friendship Tea next week and of course I said yes! These women (and men) were so kind to me. They wanted to know everything about me and were really interested. I felt welcomed, to say the least.
Well, there it is. My first Jew experience. Thanks for listening.
posted
Tom, first off, I was hoping -- and willing to believe, based on prior experience -- that you were probably not intending to attack. Might I suggest a more tactful phrasing of such questions in the future? Words like "insanely" tend to raise my hackles, I can't speak for anyone else.
I also do NOT agree that these 'small' details are trivial OR whimsical. Nor do I agree that they do not matter! I would agree that they may SEEM so to us. But then again, the forgotten kiss on the way out the door when running unusually late might seem insignificant to the husband who is sure his wife knows he loves her, so what's the big deal? While she sees it as not minor at all. (Not a great analogy, but all I'm coming up with at the moment.)
We can guess at what is "minor" and what "major" -- but I believe we cannot know.
And the word "salvation" has connotations that make me very uncomfortable. Judaism does NOT believe it's a single all-or-nothing choice. Very few people are fully evil or fully good -- most of us are an admixture of both. The goal is to tilt the scales toward good, as far as we can, as often as we can. It's tied into why we don't believe in heaven or hell.
quote: The reason I asked about whether or not you would have converted to Judaism if you had been introduced to it late in life
*blink* When did you ask that?
quote: I guess, ultimately, I'm just amazed by the variety of different answers produced by Jewish apologists
What you see as a variety of answers, I see as many facets of the truth, as a gemstone has many faces. And I left out the more esoteric ones . . .
aka, wow! I have rarely had so enthusiastic a reference. Can I have potential employers call you? Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Wow, Val. Thank you so much for sharing that with me -- with us! I'm so glad you had such a great experience. And you know I'm always happy to answer questions.
posted
Thank you for your willingness to link to or directly answer questions about your religious body of beliefs. I think, had I not come into the LDS Church, that I might have found the study of the Torah as satisfying as I do the Standard Works in the LDS library.
I was particularly enlightened by the rabbinical articles about the Fall of Adam and Eve. So much of the thinking in the articles parallels my own. I really enjoyed the readings.
Thanks again. Jana
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posted
Oh, and thanks for that link to Jew Facts. Very helpful and a few friends say that is a great one!
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posted
"rivka is already the answer to the question of why. She's just so great. Can't you feel it? Don't you think she must be doing something right to be that way?"
Um....Sure. Except that I also know a lot of great Mormons, Muslims, atheists, and Baptists. All of these religions are mutually exclusive; you cannot be both a Mormon AND a Jew, for example.
So if you, Anne Kate, believe that rivka must be right because she's so great, why are you a Mormon? *blink* I mean, is she right, but not quite right enough? Does that mean she'd be greater if she were LDS?
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Tom, do you really believe that everyone in the world should have one BEST career? One BEST method of showing caring to their spouse? One BEST method of raising their kids -- ALL their kids the same way?
posted
Oh LDS people are also Jewish, didn't you know? Or pretty close, anyway. We keep a somewhat modified version of the commandments, and we believe the messiah has already come but really it's very much the same spirit. Nobody ever said the spirit was only for the LDS.
I think the fullness of my own understanding, at this point, is so limited by circumstances as to make me quite unwilling to contend with anyone over details of doctrine. If I'm following the path I'm being led to follow, to the best of my ability, then that's my job. I have no authority to decide the correct path for anyone else, though of course I would always be glad to teach anyone (who sincerely wants to learn) anything they want to know about my own faith.
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posted
"Tom, do you really believe that everyone in the world should have one BEST career?"
Are you really arguing that the instructions of God are meant to be followed -- or not followed -- as each individual wishes, and that there are no consequences to this behavior?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Don't get me wrong: as a former Baha'i, I once believed very strongly that there were multiple paths to the same truth.
However, I don't see anything in the scripture OR philosophy of the religions I mentioned that would suggest that these paths are even compatible, much less complimentary.
To bring this back to Orthodox Judaism, how is it possible to argue that God cares deeply about, say, keeping kosher -- but doesn't actually care whether you think the Messiah was hanging out in pre-Columbian America? Or that there's this guy in Rome who presumably has a direct line to God Himself, but keeps giving messages that don't line up with what this guy in Utah has to say?
These seem like enormous distinctions to me, and far more relevant than, say, whether or not it's okay to wear wool and linen simultaneously. If worrying about the fine points of that doctrine is important, how can worrying about the big picture not be at least as important?
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Do Jewish scholars report any "borrowings" from other ancient religions or societies in the Torah?
I've read, for example, that there's a lot of Hammarabi in Moses' laws. I don't know enough to judge for myself, but I wonder if that one's true and if there might be others -- like similarities to Egyptian myths and legends (but not the actual religion of ancient Egypt).
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To me the point is the effect it has on the follower. Whatever causes a good effect is good. There are different systems. Some are better than others. Some are better for some people than others. One is best for me, and that's the one I am trying to find and follow.
Oh, and rivka, feel free to put me on your resume as a reference. Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Thanks, ak. I'm picturing trying to explain who you are to a potential employer though . . .
Bob, since we believe that the Torah was given, word for word (in the case of the Five Books; it gets more complicated with the Prophets and Writings), by God, it seems unlikely that Orthodox sources would do so.
Tom, I would make a major distinction between beliefs and actions. I consider the latter far more important, and think He does too. You seem to feel that beliefs are more important. Well, you're entitled to that belief. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Bob, we read parts of the Code of Hammurabi for one of my classes last semester. The resemblence between it and parts of Leviticus is striking. However, there are also some significant differences. For example, the laws mostly seem to apply to the upper class (or more likely, free men as opposed to servants or slaves). Also, the dietary and spiritual aspects of Leviticus are missing, if I recall correctly.
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quote:Ever hear of Hamurabi? ‘The Code of Hamurabi’ (18th century B.C.E.) is one of the oldest known legal codes on record. I heard from Rabbi Simcha Wasserman, zatzal, that Hamurabi was most likely a dropout from the academy of Shem and Ever.
That was great! Thanks rivka.
quote:The underlying conceptual differences between the Torah and Hammurabi's code demonstrate that there was no borrowing between the two systems. The Torah's law has fundamentally different values and cannot have been based on Babylonian law. The Torah views the law as G-d-given and human life as sacred. This is entirely different from Hammurabi's man-made law that views life as an economic asset. The two laws may look similar in some respects but their underlying postulates are so different that one cannot have been based on the other.
posted
If Joe Lieberman becomes President of the United States, and there's a national emergency on the Sabbath, is he allowed to work? Or should he hand off the country to the Vice President (in which case, does he need to choose a Gentile as a running mate?)
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quote: It's politically correct to insist that everyone is the same -- Jews, gentiles, men, women, blacks, whites, Irish, Chinese -- a whole rainbow of colors swirled into one great gray stew of uniformity. But how drab! The Bible's position is viva la difference!
Every nation, every tribe, every person has something unique to offer. We contribute most if we maintain our individuality.
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quote: I always wondered, how can you keep all 613 Mitzvot nowdays? Especially the ones related to the Temple, kohein etc.?
And what is the scriptural base for not having to keep all the 613 Mitzvot?
quote: There is an interesting question that often arises when we consider the importance of fulfilling all 613 mitzvot in the Torah: Isn't it odd that there has never been a Jew capable of keeping all 613? There are mitzvot that apply only to a Jewish king, a High Priest, an ordinary priest, a Levite, a Jewish judge, one who resides in the land of Israel, a homeowner, a man, a woman, and the list goes on. Who is capable of performing all 613?
Some suggest that by studying about those mitzvot that are not applicable to ourselves, we are considered to be actually involved in them. The Or HaChaim, however, offers a different solution. He explains that, in truth, each and every Jew does fulfill all the mitzvot in the Torah, for he or she is connected and one with all of the Jewish people.
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quote: If Joe Lieberman becomes President of the United States, and there's a national emergency on the Sabbath, is he allowed to work? Or should he hand off the country to the Vice President (in which case, does he need to choose a Gentile as a running mate?)
Well, it's something he'd have to take up with his rabbi beforehand (and I believe he did so before the last election, when the issue was raised).
But my educated supposition: Life-threatening emergencies? No problem. Not life threatening? There are many possible scenarios, but two things to keep in mind: Some things may be done for a community on Shabbos that may not be done for a person (or few people); most things that the President would need to do in an emergency situation are probably not actual Sabbath violations (or the violation can be worked around, like having someone else make a phone call, write, etc. -- which likely allowed because of the communal need aspect).
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Something I've wondered about: are figs kosher? (Quick search on google seems to indicate yes.) I ask because they are pollinated by tiny wasps that remain in the fruit and are usually consumed. Or does this somehow fall under the "one sixtieth part" caveat?
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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quote: Something I've wondered about: are figs kosher? (Quick search on google seems to indicate yes.) I ask because they are pollinated by tiny wasps that remain in the fruit and are usually consumed. Or does this somehow fall under the "one sixtieth part" caveat?
Yes, they're kosher -- in fact, they are one of the special fruits of Israel (a status that means we say a special blessing on them, eat them before other fruit, and so on).
The one-part-in-60 only helps if the 1/60 is not distinct, so it doesn't help for a visible bug. *shudder* However, the species that requires wasp fertilization is NOT the fig we mostly eat.
quote: The common fig is a much more important variety which emerged during classical times. The fruit produce twice a year, with neither crop needing to be caprified. Thus freed from the need of the fig wasp, who cannot stand cooler climates, the fig tree began to spread northward, reaching Britain in the early 16th century. During the same period, it arrived in North America, where it became firmly established in California. In 1769, the Franciscan mission at San Diego was founded and began to grow a Spanish black common fig which, under the names of Mission, Black Mission, and Franciscana, is still one of the leading varieties.
In any case, in those species that DO require caprification, guess what happens to wasp which dies in the fig? It dissolves in the highly acidic juices, and is absorbed. Yum! Bug juice!
Because bugs can be an issue in figs, they must be examined much more carefully than other fruit, even if there is no outward sign of an infestation.
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posted
rivka, I think I would be classified as a "fangirl"? Or is that only something you can be for guys? Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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Talk to imogen, ak. I'm pretty sure she declared herself the head of my fan club a while back. She's probably willing to pass on the mantle by now. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
rivka, do Orthodox Jews believe in any places to go besides Heaven and Hell in the afterlife? Is there a Purgatory or "limbo" (that's where they set the bar really low).
Does Orthodox Judaism have a stance on the reform jews? As in, is there an official, "Yes, the Reform Jews are still okay" or "We don't know what's up with those Reform Jews"?
Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of my jewish friends are Reform. I have one friend whose family is orthodox but he's not practicing, and another friend who describes his judaism as 'the real one' aka he's from Israel and bases his practices off of that.
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posted
Bob, I've got a couple of books from various undergrad. religious studies classes that focus on parallels between ancient near eastern myths and the Torah. I'll look when I get home tonight and get you some titles and authors.
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posted
Theres a book called "The Gift of the Jews" that talks about the remarkable underlying difference between early Judaism and other mid-eastern mystical beliefs. It's interesting reading.
I'd be interested in Rivka's thoughts on it if she's read it.
quote: rivka, do Orthodox Jews believe in any places to go besides Heaven and Hell in the afterlife? Is there a Purgatory or "limbo" (that's where they set the bar really low).
Or reincarnation even???
And what is Heaven like?
Also Hell?
Actually, we don't even believe in heaven and hell, at least not as the words are commonly used. You will sometimes see the English words used, for lack of a good alternative.
As I told AJ here, some of the issues are semantic. Also, many of the discussions in the Gemara, and elsewhere, are highly allegorical. We simply lack adequate frame of reference for a NON-allegorical description, I think.
Here's one description of the World to Come. Note the allegories.
quote: Does Orthodox Judaism have a stance on the reform Jews? As in, is there an official, "Yes, the Reform Jews are still okay" or "We don't know what's up with those Reform Jews"?
Reform Jews are certainly "ok" -- whatever you mean by that.
Reform Judaism, OTOH, is more problematic. They have some very different beliefs -- such as they do not believe the Torah was dictated by God -- and thus different practices. The primary complication is that a Reform marriage, divorce, or conversion is not seen as halachically valid, which can lead to some really sticky problems.
I'd like to reemphasize that I don't think it is my place to judge anyone else's religious practices (unless they infringe upon me). I figure He'll sort it all out.
quote: I think it's ironic that the special fruit of Israel has problems with WASPs.
Yeah, you should have seen some of the search results.
quote: Theres a book called "The Gift of the Jews" that talks about the remarkable underlying difference between early Judaism and other mid-eastern mystical beliefs. It's interesting reading.
I'd be interested in Rivka's thoughts on it if she's read it.
I have heard of it, but have not read it. I think I saw an interesting analysis of it somewhere -- I'll see if I can find it later.
posted
Rivka, thanks for all of this wonderful information, and thanks for all of those great questions, too. Great chance to learn here.
This may sound trivial, but here goes:
What's the difference between Hebrew and Yiddish? I understand they are different languages, but why the difference?
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quote: What's the difference between Hebrew and Yiddish? I understand they are different languages, but why the difference?
Well, that's rather like asking why there is such a language as English -- a complex combination of historical social, cultural, and other factors.
Hebrew (or rather, biblical Hebrew, "Lashon haKodesh" -- the holy tongue) is the language of the Torah (except for one volume in Aramaic), the prayers (although one CAN pray in any language, or none), and the majority of Jewish writings.
Yiddish gradually spread as a "common" language, a language of the streets, of commerce. There is some debate as to the actual geographic origins and timeline, but here's what seems (from my searches today, I can't claim to have any linguistic background) to be the generally accepted theory. Jews of Sephardic origin don't usually speak Yiddish -- they have Ladino instead.
There's a new 'language' often referred to as "yeshivish." It's a pidgin blend of Yiddish, Hebrew, and English. It makes me cringe, and I can (usually) understand it!
Okay, I've got another question. (This is not asked to be divisive in the least, but out of curiosity.)
What is the Jewish take on Jesus or even is there one? For example, I've been told that in the Muslim faith Jesus is seen as someone of exceptional wisdom, but is not a divine prophet like Mohammad. On the other hand, the Christian doctrine doesn't seem to have an official stance on Mohammad, Buddha, Lao Tzu or other religious figures.
I'm interested because, as a Christian, my religion is entwined with Judaism and we revere that as the root of our faith and system of beliefs.
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Also: what is the difference between Orthodox Judaism and Hasidic Judaism? I bring this up because I am reading the Faye Kellerman books (Yay to the hatracker who recommended them whose name I forget!) and the characters seem to agree that there is a difference. Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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quote: What is the Jewish take on Jesus or even is there one?
Well, we think he was wrong. And the past 2000 years worth of anti-Jewish actions that have been committed either in his name or in attempts to convert us haven't exactly helped things . . . [Edit: I found this link and thought it was relevant.]
quote: Also: what is the difference between Orthodox Judaism and Hasidic Judaism? I bring this up because I am reading the Faye Kellerman books (Yay to the hatracker who recommended them whose name I forget!) and the characters seem to agree that there is a difference.
jexx, it's like squares. All squares are rectangles; not all rectangles are squares. From here:
quote: Orthodoxy is actually made up of several different groups. It includes the modern Orthodox, who have largely integrated into modern society while maintaining observance of halakhah (Jewish Law), the Chasidim, who live separately and dress distinctively (commonly, but erroneously, referred to in the media as the "ultra-Orthodox"), and the Yeshivish Orthodox, who are neither Chasidic nor modern. The Orthodox movements are all very similar in belief, and the differences are difficult for anyone who is not Orthodox to understand.
I also want to back up, and add something to my answer to Suneun's question. I focused on the differences between Orthodox and Reform Judaism -- I think it's important that I emphasize that there are many common points as well. The concept of tikkun olam -- repairing the (physical) world -- has always been an intrinsic and important part of Judaism. It is something that Reform Judaism, to their credit, has devoted incredible amounts of time, money, and energy to.
posted
HI RIVKA! I have just moved in with a friend (Jewish) and she and I were talking about mezuzahs and how expensive the scrolls are. For that reason, we only have one on the front door. I checked on ebay and, holy cow! they are expensive. My question is, how do I know they are the real deal and how can I tell if I'm getting ripped off? Do you have a reliable place I would be able to order a few kosher scrolls?
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quote:The primary complication is that a Reform marriage, divorce, or conversion is not seen as halachically valid, which can lead to some really sticky problems.
...And the fact that Reform Judaism started recognizing patrilineal descent a few years ago, which brings up some really sticky problems of who is Jewish and who isn't.
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quote:Orthodoxy is actually made up of several different groups. It includes the modern Orthodox, who have largely integrated into modern society while maintaining observance of halakhah (Jewish Law), the Chasidim, who live separately and dress distinctively (commonly, but erroneously, referred to in the media as the "ultra-Orthodox"), and the Yeshivish Orthodox, who are neither Chasidic nor modern. The Orthodox movements are all very similar in belief, and the differences are difficult for anyone who is not Orthodox to understand.
Just curious - which are you? Well, I'm assuming you're not Chassidish. Are you modern orthodox or yeshivish? Somewhere in between? What kinds of schools do you send your children to?
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Anyone who is MO or higher in religious standards tend to send their kids to Jewish private schools. You will get the occasional religious Jew in a public school, but it's unlikely. If the person is that religious, then they would want their child to have a Jewish education along with a secular one.
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posted
Yes, mezuzah scrolls ARE expensive -- they take hours upon hours of painstaking work by a trained sofer (scribe). Unfortunately, you are correct that not all for sale are valid. I only know reliable places to buy them in L.A. (and in Jerusalem, as it happens); I assume you want to find them online? Do NOT buy "used" ones. Ones that have been put up on doors (where they are exposed to sun, heat, moisture, cold, etc.) need to be checked (by a sofer, to ensure than none of the letters have blurred, cracked, etc.) every few years. So buy new ones -- ebay may not be the best place to be sure you're doing that.
I know Eichlers is a reliable place to buy them, but I'll see what else I can find.
reader, I'm somewhere on the continuum of Modern Orthodox / Yeshivish. And I don't know why you assume I'm not Chasidish -- I happen not to be, but I have many friends and former classmates who are. (Being Chasidish/Yeshivish is more a question of birth than choice, although I'm simplifying.)
As Arya said, most Orthodox families (me included) send their kids to private religious elementary, middle, and high schools. Some go to "regular" colleges; some do not. I did (I went to UCLA); one of my brothers went to Touro (which like the more well-known Yeshiva University, combines an Orthodox environment with secular education) and also attended yeshiva (lit: school, in this case, specifically post-HS education); one of my brothers has not attended college, and has spent 8 years (and counting) post-HS in a yeshiva in Israel; my third brother is following a path similar to the oldest one, except at a different yeshiva, and he's also taking classes at a local "regular" college that has an arrangement with his yeshiva about credits for classes and such.
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That's actually the subject of much debate, Scott, and has been for thousands of years.![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
Rivka spent quite a few hours answering my questions via AIM and most recently, email. Now, it came to be that I have been having lots of money problems lately and my mom said I could earn a few bucks by cleaning her house once a week. I was cleaning the basement bookshelf and what book was staring at me but, Choosing a Jewish Life ? I read it in one night. I asked my mom the next day why she had that book, see my mother is not a religious person. She said that our mutual friend Sarah had converted a while back and she loaned that book to my mom to answer some common questions.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I have rarely had so enthusiastic a reference. Can I have potential employers call you? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Well, you're entitled to that belief. 
