posted
My question about schools wasn't public school vs. religious; I assumed you sent your kids to private religious schools. I was wondering whether, for example, you sent your girls to Bais Yaakov or a less yeshivish kind of school.
As to my assuming you weren't Chassidish.... Well, of course you might have had a Chassidish background, with all the accompanying traditions and separate "laws" - but when I said Chassidish, I meant the kind of Chassidish where the children go to special schools for that particular Chassidus. The chances of finding someone like that on the Internet, here at Hatrack, is slim to nil.
To be honest, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here. (I'm Orthodox, in case you haven't figured that out yet.) Well, I know how I found my way here; I use the Internet almost exclusively for doing research for college (Touro, as it happens ) and for searching for book-related information, as I'm an avid reader, and in doing a search for OSC's books, I came across this site. At first I stuck to the writing tips and so forth, but then I discovered these forums, and as I love debating, I found myself occasionally posting in the more discussion/debate geared threads. Still, let's just say that this is not the kind of site my friends would be visiting....
By the way, I found the yeshivish translation of the Gettysburg address hilarious. I've never actually read the yeshivish dictionary, but I've been wanting to for a while now. It annoys my mother to no end when my brothers use too much of it, especially when it's in reply to a question asked by a non-Jewish doctor!
quote:My question about schools wasn't public school vs. religious; I assumed you sent your kids to private religious schools. I was wondering whether, for example, you sent your girls to Bais Yaakov or a less yeshivish kind of school.
Ahh, ok. Well, I live in Los Angeles, so while there is SOME choice among the various Orthodox schools, it's not like Brooklyn (or Monsey, or Lakewood, etc.) where there are MANY options. For example, there are only two Chasidish elementary schools (the Chasidishe Cheder and the Lubavitch school(s)) -- and both are pretty recent. Less than 10 years old, iirc.
Anyway, the school my kids go to is pretty yeshivish. And I did go to Bais Yaakov (here that's HS only), although my sister, for various reasons, attends a different HS.
quote: As to my assuming you weren't Chassidish.... Well, of course you might have had a Chassidish background, with all the accompanying traditions and separate "laws" . . . The chances of finding someone like that on the Internet, here at Hatrack, is slim to nil.
Tsk. You'd be surprised. I've met all kinds of people on online forums -- including some very Chasidish ones.
quote: To be honest, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing here.
Maybe it's the fun, intelligent people? That's what keeps me here.
quote: Still, let's just say that this is not the kind of site my friends would be visiting....
Ditto. But that's never stopped me before!
Anyway, my email and AIM id are in my profile. Feel free to drop me a line, anytime. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: Talk to imogen, ak. I'm pretty sure she declared herself the head of my fan club a while back. She's probably willing to pass on the mantle by now.
Not a chance! I remain the head, and founding member.
Though you can be vice president if you want, ak.
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It came about after talking to some friends of mine who have just come back from Thailand, and reading a while back about your (rivka's ) requests for kosher suppliers at chicago/kamacon...
How can Jewish people who observe strict kosher rules travel widely? I would imagine that some countries (especially those in the developing world) would have little to no kosher food sources. (Though, of course, I may be wrong on this ). Does this curtail travel?
posted
Well, I have some personal experience in traveling places that have no locally available kosher food. (Thailand, BTW, is not one of them -- there's a kosher restaurant, last I heard!) Does it curtail travel? Nope, not really.
Does it entail shlepping along an extra suitcase full of canned goods and crackers, and then living off those, plus fresh fruit, vegetables, and whatever other local supplies don't need supervision? Yep -- been there, done that. Spent a week in a tiny village in East Germany (back when there WAS an East Germany) once. I'm pretty sure we brought stuff for the week in NZ too. (There IS an Orthodox community in NZ, but we were nowhere near it, iirc.) In France, because the plain baguettes -- by law -- contain only specific ingredients (all of which are kosher), we were able to buy fresh bread twice a day. Mmmmmm.
Could I bring food to Chicago? Sure -- as I mentioned, I've done it before. It just seems silly in a city that HAS many kosher markets and restaurants for me to do so. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Hope you don't mind me popping in, Rivka; I figured I'd add in my own perspective on the eating only kosher and travelling issue.
First, within America it isn't much of an issue, because many of the largest manufacturers of food are under the supervision of Jewish agencies (such as the OU or OK) and are thus available in any major grocery store. This includes cereal, bread, canned foods, and much more. The only real issues are prepared food and meat. So, for example, when my family goes on vacation, we pack along our pots and pans and take along some meat and milk (separately, of course!) in an ice-chest, along with some specific items, and we stay at a place where we have our own kitchen. "Kashering" a stove-top is very easy - all you have to do is turn on the fire and let it burn for a few minutes - and then we can cook as usual.
Travelling abroad, of course, is more difficult. What my father does (he travels every so often for work-related purposes) is to buy those amazing air-tight food meals that last for two years without refrigeration and come with their own chemical thingy to heat them up. There's a brand that's kosher, and they're absolutely perfect for travelling, because they come in several varieties, can last without refrigeration, and don't need a stove or even an electricity source to heat them up. Each meal contains a main dish, a soup, a vegatable.... My father takes a bunch of them along with him for each supper, and for lunch and breakfast, he take along food that can be eaten cold.
So... eating only kosher definitely does make it harder to travel to places where no kosher food is available, but in a way, it also saves money - because you can't go to restaurants whether you'd like to or not! Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:The chances of finding someone like that on the Internet, here at Hatrack, is slim to nil.
Who says? My best friend is a Lubavitcher hasid and I have sent her links to Hatrack in the past. She gets around on the internet, when her computer is working. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Who says? My best friend is a Lubavitcher hasid and I have sent her links to Hatrack in the past. She gets around on the internet, when her computer is working.
I suppose I should have been more specific. Lubavitcher Chassidim are radically different than Chassidim of groups such as Skeverer, Belz, Ger, etc. "Regular" Chassidim try to keep themselves as separate as possible, while Lubavitcher Chassidim work actively to try to convince non-religous Jews to become religious, and are thus very much involved with the secular world.
So... when I said Chassidish, I was excluding the Lubavitch. Still, as Rivka wrote, I suppose it would be possible to find a Chassidish person here on hatrack; it would just be very, very, very unlikely.
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posted
What exactly is the Talmud? If I am correct, the Hasidim are more devoted to the thorough study of the Talmud, but it seems important to Orthodox Jews as well. Why is studying it so important?
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posted
reader, please feel free to weigh in. Those self-heating meals are GREAT -- I keep a couple in the car for emergency/earthquake supplies. But they didn't use to be available (the time period I did lots of traveling during was 12-25 years ago). Also, we used to go places for a week to a month -- bringing along a month's supply of those for all of us would be prohibitively expensive, not to mention require another 3-4 suitcases instead of just the one.
quote: So... when I said Chasidish, I was excluding the Lubavitch. Still, as Rivka wrote, I suppose it would be possible to find a Chasidish person here on Hatrack; it would just be very, very, very unlikely.
I'm going to have to get my online friends who are Vishnitz, Karlin-Stalin, and Bostoner, etc. to post to Hatrack now . . . You are overgeneralizing. Chasidim are individuals, like anyone else. There are quite a number online. And since Hatrack is a magnet for people who are a bit unusual, where ELSE would they end up?
quote: What's with the dreidel?
Could you be more specific, please?
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quote: What exactly is the Talmud? If I am correct, the Hasidim are more devoted to the thorough study of the Talmud, but it seems important to Orthodox Jews as well. Why is studying it so important?
First off, Chasidim ARE Orthodox.
quote: Orthodoxy is actually made up of several different groups. It includes the modern Orthodox, who have largely integrated into modern society while maintaining observance of halakhah (Jewish Law), the Chasidim, who live separately and dress distinctively (commonly, but erroneously, referred to in the media as the "ultra-Orthodox"), and the Yeshivish Orthodox, who are neither Chasidic nor modern. The Orthodox movements are all very similar in belief, and the differences are difficult for anyone who is not Orthodox to understand.
And actually, it could be (and has been) argued that Talmud study is more important, generally speaking, to Yeshivish Orthodox than Chasidish.
In any case, the Talmud is the written version of what was originally (and is still referred to as) the Torah She'b'al Peh -- Oral Law. It has two main parts, the Mishnah and the Gemara (which actually includes the Mishnah, and then a detailed discussion of each line thereof).
quote: Many things are not explained in the Torah Shebiksav [Written Law, what you would call the OT]. Hashem gave the explanations to Moshe Rabbeinu on Mount Sinai together with the written Torah. These explanations are called the Torah Sheb’al Peh, the Oral Torah, because they were meant to be passed from teacher to student. In the years after the destruction of the second Beis HaMikdash (Holy Temple) there was a danger that the Torah Sheb’al Peh would be forgotten. Therefore, our Sages, led by Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi (The Prince), assembled a basic outline of the Torah Sheb’al Peh into a series of books called the Mishna. The Mishna was completed in the year 188 CE. The Mishna was intended to serve as a memory aid so that it would be easier for students to remember the Torah Sheb’al Peh. The Mishna was primarily an outline and did not include the in-depth analysis and explanation behind the laws. These explanations are called gemara. About three hundred years after the completion of the Mishna there was a risk that the gemara would be forgotten. Once again, our sages, now led by Rav Ashi and Ravina, compiled the gemara into a written work as a commentary on the Mishna. This completed work is called the Talmud. The Talmud is therefore the complete collection of the Mishna and the gemara.
quote: Does it entail shlepping along an extra suitcase full of canned goods and crackers, and then living off those, plus fresh fruit, vegetables, and whatever other local supplies don't need supervision?
My mind is boggling: last time I went overseas with my family, they required a ridiculous amount of luggage as it was. Even the porters and taxi drivers commented in amused disbelief... I can't imagaine what they'd be like if they had to carry *food* as well... Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
imogen, bringing substantial amounts of food is not always necessary. There are Jewish communities (and thus (usually), local supplies of kosher food) in or near many travel destinations. For example, when we spent the summer in Wales, we got a bi-weekly shipment from a kosher butcher/market in London.
What is required (or at least, strongly recommended) is figuring these things out in advance. The Internet has made doing so MUCH easier and quicker.
posted
Since the dreidel question wasn't answered I suppose my pathetic Reform Jew self can answer it. The dreidel is the basis of a game played by spinning it. The letters on the dreidel; shin, hey, gimel, and nun mean, "A Great Miracle Happened There." "There" being Israel, "A Great Miracle" being the story of Chanukah of the great victory by the Maccabees and one day's oil lasting for eight. When the game is played you spin the dreidel, if it lands on shin you must put one in the pot, if it lands on nun nothing happens, if it lands on hey you take half, and if it lands on gimel you take the entire pot. I hope that answers all.
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And I believe the dreidels in Israel (so my Reconstructionist girlfriend claims) are slightly different, so that the Hebrew is translated as "A Great Miracle Happened Here". For obvious reasons
posted
Just in case it's the history/origin of the dreidel that you're looking for, and not an explanation of "playing dreidel":
During the period in which the Chanukah miracle took place, the Jews were under Greek subjugation. The Greeks had no desire to kill out the Jews (strangely enough) - they "merely" wanted to destroy our religioun and integrate us into the "enlightened" secular Greek culture. As such, they outlawed several integral mitzvos (commandments). One of the things they forbade was the teaching of Torah. For many Jews, the idea of complying with this was unthinkable. However, the punishment of studying the Torah was death. What to do? At last a solution of a sort was found. A group of children would head out to the hills together with a teacher and find a secluded cave to study in. One of the boys would always be mounted as a guard. Whenever he would see someone approaching, he would warn the others, and they would all hide away their books and take out - ta da - their dreidels, and pretend that they were merely on an outing with some adult supervision, playing childish games that the mighty Greek officials certainly wouldn't interested in.
Hence, the dreidels.
Also, the letters on the dreidel don't actually mean "A great miracle happened there" - they're the initals of the words which mean that. (You knew that, I know. I'm merely being nit-picky. )
And yes, in Israel the letters on the dreidel are nun, gimmel, hey, pey, with the pey taking the place of the shin. (Trying to write out the names of Hebrew letters in English is really weird.)
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posted
nfl, no put-downs are allowed in this thread. That includes of oneself, please, ok? Thank you.
*seeing how well nfl, Bok, and reader are handling the dreidel question, the rebbetzin takes the day off* Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Bok, I was going to include that but forgot. Reader, yes you are being nitpicky. Rivka, why can't I insult myself? I feel perfectly justified in doing so. Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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rivka, I have had a question about Passover and what exactly is done to celebrate it. Got a good link? I gave a sort of general answer, but thought you might be able to come up with a good descriptive link, and directed my questioner here for more info.
Come on, ya gotta come through for me. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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You were talking about the difference between the broad groups "Reform" and "Orthodox". Then you were talking about that group that feels that their duty is to bring non-orthodox jews back.
Clearly there are all kinds of subgroups as well. Between the subgroups, how much mixing and matching goes on? Is it normal from change from one version of Orthodoxy to another? What does happen if a "Reform" jew decides they want to become Orthodox. Does only that one sect accept them?
Is that enough? I was actually fairly surprised at how hard it was to find what I was looking for. Most sites talk about all the work involved in getting ready FOR Pesach, or just about the Seder. If there's something more in particular you'd like, I'll see what I can find.
quote: You were talking about the difference between the broad groups "Reform" and "Orthodox". Then you were talking about that group that feels that their duty is to bring non-orthodox jews back.
What does happen if a "Reform" jew decides they want to become Orthodox. Does only that one sect accept them?
AJ, first of all, anyone with a Jewish mother (or who converts under Jewish Law) is 100% Jewish, regardless of level of observance, association/identification with a particular group, etc. So someone who was not Orthodox -- whether they were Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist or were completely unaffiliated -- would be joyfully welcomed by Orthodoxy. In fact, ALL Orthodox Jews believe in kiruv rechokim, bringing back those who have become far. However, the methods and emphases vary (somewhat) from group to group, and not everyone can make it their primary goal. Nor is that necessarily advisable. But there are few (if any) Orthodox Jews who have no involvement in organizations who do kiruv; and a lot do "amateur" kiruv too.
And the goal is NOT exclusively getting those who are not to become Orthodox. The goal is to teach Jews who have not had the opportunity to learn about their heritage as much as they would like to. There are many many classes available in most Jewish communities for those who are interested. And the goal of most is simply to make information -- on history, heritage, Law, texts, philosophy, etc., etc. -- available to those who want it.
Knowledge increases available choices. Not everyone chooses to become Orthodox -- and that is something only they can decide. Some accept some aspects and not others; some find it difficult to change their lives so much, but put their kids in religious schools; some make no outward changes in their own lives but are more aware and knowledgeable.
quote: Clearly there are all kinds of subgroups as well. Between the subgroups, how much mixing and matching goes on?
Within Orthodoxy, the "mixing-and-matching" varies. While the majority of Chasidim marry Chasidim, and Yeshivish marry Yeshivish, there are many exceptions. Sephardim marry Ashkenazim too, although the majority are more comfortable with those of more similar backgrounds.
quote: Is it normal from change from one version of Orthodoxy to another?
Generally, not between Chasidish/Yeshivish (there is a strong component of following family tradition, and sticking with the customs of your family); but I am aware of specific cases where it has happened. However, people frequently become more (or less) observant over time.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Clearly there are all kinds of subgroups as well. Between the subgroups, how much mixing and matching goes on? Is it normal to change from one version of Orthodoxy to another? What does happen if a "Reform" jew decides they want to become Orthodox. Does only that one sect accept them?
As Rivka pointed out, there's no need for "acception" - a Jew will always remain a Jew, and any group at all would be more than happy to welcome a Jew into their midst.
One thing that might be confusing you is the difference between the various sects of Christianity and the various "sects" of Orthodox Judaism. Within the Orthodox community - excluding the Modern Orthodox community, I suppose - the offical view is that the various groups - the various kinds of Chassidus, Ashkanazim/Sephardim, Yeshivish - are all equally valid paths. In fact, the "group" that an Orthodox person belongs to usually has mostly, or only, to due with their family's heritage. Ashkanazi/Sephardi, for example, is determined solely by ancestry. On the other hand, switching from Yeshivish to Chassidish, or vice-versa, or switching among kinds of Chassidus, is possible, and does occur. (Each separate Chassidish group was originally created by a group of people forming around a spiritual leader, and new kinds are still forming.) Also, marrying from one Chassidish group to another occurs very frequently. I have a friend whose sisters all married into a different kinds of Chassidus, and all were different than her family's Chassidus.
quote:But there are few (if any) Orthodox Jews who have no involvement in organizations who do kiruv; and a lot do "amateur" kiruv too.
Oh, definitely! There are yeshivos (schools) where people who are interested in becoming orthodox can go to study, and the orthodox community hosts these students for Shabbos and Yom Tov (Holidays).... I have friends who go to Russia during the summer as volunteers to be counselors in camps for Russian Jews who are interested in Judaism.... My mother is always on the lookout for Jews who are interested in learning more, and will invite near-strangers over for Shabbos.
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posted
I just wanted to add that while the Yeshivish and the Chassidim are generally separate communities, they is a lot of mutual respect.
I will be fed in a few weeks at a Chabad House in Texas, because there are no other kosher places to eat and I need to go there for a conference. No problem.
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posted
While Reader and Rivka did a good job explaining the Orthodox side they left out Reform and Conservative. From that perspective there really are no subgroups and virtually no hierarchy at all. There's a nationwide organization for Reform, Conservative and even Reconstructionist Jews but they hold no real authority. Each "temple" or "synagouge" holds its services in a slightly different manner but there is no real crossing of beliefs nor any chain of synagouges so if I were to move I couldn't go to the local version of my old synagouge except that it might still be reform.
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What's the significance of the little house feast? A friend of mine growing up (I think she was reform) remembered that fondly.
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Like Rivka, my knowledge of the Reform and Conservative movements is quite limited. I do know that Reform was first and that Conservative branched off from Reform, and I do know what the first change made by the Reform movement was, but that's about it.
Also, the question asked was, as I understood it, specifically about the various groups within the orthodox community.
I do have a question now, though. I found your post confusing; when you say that from the point of view of the Conservative and Reform there are no subgroups, do you mean that within Conservative, there are no subgroups, and within Reform, there are no subgroups?
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posted
In what esteem are the parts of the Bible besides the Torah held? (They are called the Prophets and the Writings, right?) How often would the average Orthodox jew hear them quoted, read from them, etc?
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posted
Well, we read thru the entire Chumash (the five books) over the course of a year, focusing on one parshah (portion?) each week (public readings occur on Monday, Thursday, and Shabbos). So, generally, people tend to be most familiar with the Chumash.
On Shabbos, after the parshah is read, there is a complementary (usually dealing with related themes) haftorah -- a selection from the Prophets. So there tends to be a fair amount of familiarity with those portions of the Prophets. Familiarity with all the Prophets is something that some focus on, but not all.
Similarly, those portions of the Ketuvim (Writings) that are read on specific holidays -- the Five Megillot (Rut (Ruth), Esther, Eichah (Lamentations), Shir haShirim (Song of Songs), Kohelet (Ecclesiastes)) -- tend to be better known, although it varies. Esther and Rut tend to get studied as part of preparing for Purim and Shavuot, respectively.
Tehillim (Psalms) is special in that we use it for extra prayers. In case of happiness, sorrow, to pray for the sick, or simply to get closer to God -- we say Tehillim. Some make sure to say a certain number of verses every day; some simply say Tehillim whenever they can manage it.
ALL the volumes of Tanach are essential; all contain amazing insights. The problem is simply finding the time -- and a good teacher -- to learn all of them with. I know that I am not satisfied with my familiarity with many of them; finding classes that I can manage to shoehorn into my schedule is something I do my best to manage.
Happily, in the past few years, more and more online classes and sources have become available. These are far from comparable to in-person, of course, but they're a start, and easier for me to manage right now.
posted
Thanks for answering my question. I was specifically wondering about the more Orthodox traditions. I've done a lot of reading on Jewish/Israeli history, but never actually known any Orthodox Jewish people personally (other than here at hatrack) though I know several Reform type. None of them are observant though.
One of my supervisors recently married a Jewish woman, and I know he was thinking about converting, though I wasn't sure if converting to "Reform" Judaism was less stringent than something more orthodox. Anyway I know there is one orthodox Jewish man that works in my company. He wears the skullcap and prayer shawl and has a beard. I was thinking of asking him about the "where can we find kosher food" question for the ChicagoCon. But I don't see him in the halls that often, and I didn't want to offend him by asking, so I asked my supervisor if he thought it would be an okay question. (We just went through a major "harrasment training" session and I'd rather err on the side of paranoid.) My supervisor said it was an honest question and he didn't see how it could be possibly offensive.
So I'm planning on asking him about where to get kosher food next time I see him, if you guys think it is ok too.
Anything with the CRC (Chicago Rabbinical Council), O-K, or O-U is definitely fine. Anything else I can find out about. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
AJ's post just reminded me of a question. Are Orthodox Jewish men not supposed to talk to unrelated adult females? Or is that just certain men or certain Rabbis? Or did I just dream that rule up?
If there is some truth to it can you give some examples? What if I walked up and talked to someone? Or what if it was a job-related question?
Also I have been trying hard not to ask questions about menstruating women. I guess I just failed, because I DO want to know about rules for women who are pregnant or menstruating, and what they have to do afterwards. I'll erase this question if you want me to.
I was talking with someone who grew up in a kosher home and she was talking about how often she made kosher mistakes involving the china. Whenever she got caught they made her bury the bad china in the backyard. Is there a reason she had to bury it rather than throw it away, or give it away? She said there must be entire sets of dishes buried back there by now.
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quote:... Whenever she got caught they made her bury the bad china in the backyard. Is there a reason she had to bury it rather than throw it away, or give it away?
I am 99.99% sure that china or earthenware dishes that become nonkosher can just be thrown away. (Metal items can be made kosher again by inserting them into boiling water so that all surfaces of the item encounter the boiling water at once.) The kinds of items that must be buried are Torah Scrolls, seforim (holy books?), and other printed items of that sort, and certain objects that are used specifically to perform a mitzvah, such as Tzitzes (fringes).
quote:AJ's post just reminded me of a question. Are Orthodox Jewish men not supposed to talk to unrelated adult females? Or is that just certain men or certain Rabbis? Or did I just dream that rule up?
Various categories of orthodoxy can be very different in this area.
Modern Orthodox: No issue at all with married men speaking to married ladies, and not much of an issue with unmarried boys and girls speaking to each other either. Most modern orthodox schools combine boys and girls at least for Secular subjects, though some split up for high school.
Chassidish: (This is a general rule for the "real" Chassidim, the ones who live in separate communities mostly, and definitely does not include Lebovitch) Men will do their best not to talk to women except for business related purposes, and even then, some will try to avoid looking at the woman they're speaking to. It depends on the person, though; some Chassidish men have no problem with talking to women for anything related to business at all.
Yeshivish: In general, married men won't have long conversations with women unless the man's her rabbi or teacher (whether officially or unofficially). Asking a man a quick question isn't at all an issue though, at least not in most circles. (Of course, there are some Yeshivish men who won't speak to women at all, but these are mostly certain groups of people who live in Israel (Meah Shearim, Briskers, some Yerushalmim...). You'll find some Yeshivish men like this in America as well, though. Results will vary.
If the parties involved aren't married, the "rules" become a bit stricter. Especially among the very Yeshivish, unmarried boys and girls have little to no contact with each other - separate schools and everything. Let me use myself as an example. I'm in college (girls only), and I haven't spoken face to face with a boy near my age who wasn't one of my brothers (except perhaps for a couple of words - such as, "You have a phone call" or "Excuse me" - to brothers' friends or friends' brothers) since I was about 12 or so.
Obviously, this will change when I start dating.
quote:If there is some truth to it can you give some examples? What if I walked up and talked to someone? Or what if it was a job-related question?
As long as the man isn't wearing obviously Chassidish garb, you're almost definitely okay asking a quick question. Even if the man IS Chassidish, if he's working with you or near you, it's obviously okay to talk to him about work related matters - and all the more so if he's not Chassidish.[/quote]
posted
I was all but done with a reply, and my computer froze.
Ok, take two.
quote: Are Orthodox Jewish men not supposed to talk to unrelated adult females? Or is that just certain men or certain Rabbis? Or did I just dream that rule up?
If there is some truth to it can you give some examples? What if I walked up and talked to someone? Or what if it was a job-related question?
Well, reader already (quite thoroughly ) covered the various ways it is applied. It all comes from a suggestion that men not have "unnecessary" conversation with women. The differences come primarily from interpretations of what precisely that means.
However, work-related conversations are pretty universally accepted as "necessary." Similarly, most things you might ask of a stranger -- such as directions somewhere -- would also be clearly necessary.
quote: Also I have been trying hard not to ask questions about menstruating women. I guess I just failed, because I DO want to know about rules for women who are pregnant or menstruating, and what they have to do afterwards. I'll erase this question if you want me to.
Link If you (or anyone else) have more specific questions, I'd prefer to answer them privately.
quote: I was talking with someone who grew up in a kosher home and she was talking about how often she made kosher mistakes involving the china. Whenever she got caught they made her bury the bad china in the backyard. Is there a reason she had to bury it rather than throw it away, or give it away? She said there must be entire sets of dishes buried back there by now.
I've heard of the custom, but I can find neither source nor comment. I know that it is not what I was taught to do -- I would toss the item (assuming it could not be kashered). Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
This past weekend Juliette's cousin became a bat mitzvah, and we went to the ceremony and the party afterward. (Did I get that right?) I had a couple of questions.
First, what's the difference between a cantor and a rabbi? Juliette's not Jewish, though her father is, so she didn't really know, but said one difference she knew about was that cantors sing. Certainly, the cantor at the ceremony sang. Does a bat mitzvah ceremony always involve a cantor, or is there sometimes a rabbi? Or both?
Second, my father-in-law has mentioned before that when he was young and in Hebrew school, the language was different. For example, I know reader just used the term "shabbos," but Juliette's Israeli cousins, as well as her more closely located cousins, say "shabbat." Or are those two different words? Also, my father-in-law has also said that back in the day, the term was "bas mitzvah" rather than "bat mitzvah." So, at some point in the past 60 years or so, there has been a change in the language, written or oral, or both. Do you know when and why that happened?
Finally, and I guess this is less a question than a statement, but:
quote:first of all, anyone with a Jewish mother (or who converts under Jewish Law) is 100% Jewish, regardless of level of observance, association/identification with a particular group, etc.
Might this be the reason that being Judaism is often (mistakenly) considered to be a race or ethnicity? For example, my older brother's mom is Jewish. My dad was raised as a Presbyterian and is currently not particularly religious. Now, I'm not sure about the specifics of my brother's theological beliefs, but he doesn't go to temple and, in general, he doesn't really follow any Jewish rules. I think he does celebrate Hanukkah with his mom's family, but that may be the extent of his involvement with Judaism. He may or may not believe in a deity at all; I've never actually asked. Is he still considered Jewish? If a person's mother is Jewish, what does it take for that person not to be considered Jewish? (OK, so I guess there really were some questions in there.)
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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The bas/bat thing is actually a difference of tradition between two large groups of Jews (The Ashkenazi/Sephardic thing, I think). I think you find that similar reasons are the reason for the other differences.
quote:This past weekend Juliette's cousin became a bat mitzvah, and we went to the ceremony and the party afterward. (Did I get that right?) I had a couple of questions.
First, what's the difference between a cantor and a rabbi? Juliette's not Jewish, though her father is, so she didn't really know, but said one difference she knew about was that cantors sing. Certainly, the cantor at the ceremony sang. Does a bat mitzvah ceremony always involve a cantor, or is there sometimes a rabbi? Or both?
I know practically nothing about Reform/Conservative Bat Mitzvahs, as the Orthodox don't celebrate Bat Mitzvahs in the way that the Reform/Conservative do. However, I can tell you what the difference is between a cantor and a rabbi. A rabbi is the spiritual leader of the congregation, is the one who gives lectures/speeches, and is the one who is consulted on religious matters. A cantor, on the other hand, is simply the man - whether official or not - who leads the prayers, which often includes singing. The rabbi is not usually the cantor, but he may occasionally take on the cantor's duties.
quote:Second, my father-in-law has mentioned before that when he was young and in Hebrew school, the language was different. For example, I know reader just used the term "shabbos," but Juliette's Israeli cousins, as well as her more closely located cousins, say "shabbat." Or are those two different words? Also, my father-in-law has also said that back in the day, the term was "bas mitzvah" rather than "bat mitzvah." So, at some point in the past 60 years or so, there has been a change in the language, written or oral, or both. Do you know when and why that happened?
As Bokonon explained, the difference is actually a difference in the tradition of Sephardi/Ashkenazai, and these differences have been around for hundreds of years. (The difference isn't in the language, btw; it's in the pronunciation.) In more recent times, the Sephardi pronunciation has become popular among the Reform Conservative, and Israelis, even among those who are Ashkenazai, because Israel uses the Sephardi pronunciation. As to WHY Israel chose the Sephardi pronunciation.... I've always heard that it was because the Zionists were trying to separate themselves from the "Shtetl Jew" back in Europe. Since the Zionists had broken away from religious Judaism, and considered the Eastern European religious Jew to be "unenlightened," they were not very friendly towards them in general, and so they preferred to use the Sephardi pronunciation, which would separate Israeli Hebrew from the Hebrew that was being used in the Shtetls. Since the Reform and Conservative(nowadays) and even the Modern Orthodox tend to be Zionistic, most adopted the change in pronunciation as well. In the Chassidish and Yeshivish circles, however, the pronunciation used is determined solely by ancestry - which is why I speak Hebrew with "s" where others might say "t". (When I was in Israel, I spoke with the Israeli pronunication and accent, simply because that was what I was hearing all the time and that was what was being used, but in America, when I speak Hebrew, I speak with the Ashkenazi pronunciation.)
quote: quote: ------------------------------------------------ first of all, anyone with a Jewish mother (or who converts under Jewish Law) is 100% Jewish, regardless of level of observance, association/identification with a particular group, etc. ------------------------------------------------
Might this be the reason that being Judaism is often (mistakenly) considered to be a race or ethnicity?
Actually, Judaism is partly a race/ethnicity, as all Jews except converts are descended from the same ancestors. I suppose you'd call it a mixture of a nation and a religion.
quote:For example, my older brother's mom is Jewish. My dad was raised as a Presbyterian and is currently not particularly religious. Now, I'm not sure about the specifics of my brother's theological beliefs, but he doesn't go to temple and, in general, he doesn't really follow any Jewish rules. I think he does celebrate Hanukkah with his mom's family, but that may be the extent of his involvement with Judaism. He may or may not believe in a deity at all; I've never actually asked. Is he still considered Jewish?
Yes. Definitely.
quote:If a person's mother is Jewish, what does it take for that person not to be considered Jewish?
It is absolutely impossible. Once someone is born a Jew, it doesn't matter what they do - even if they were to convert to another religion - they will still be considered Jewish. Even if a person's father had no Jewish blood at all, and his mother's father wasn't Jewish, and his mother's mother's father wasn't Jewish - as long as his maternal ancestry is Jewish, he's Jewish, no matter what. It is theoretically possible for a person to have 15 non-Jewish great-great grandparents and 1 Jewish great-great grandmother, and still be Jewish.
Posts: 196 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Is that tongue-in-cheek, or a serious question?
If it was a serious question, I would definitely need you to rephrase your question to be a bit more specific. Perhaps rivka would be willing to take it on as is, but my mind-reading skills are not quite developed enough yet.
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I was wondering whether, for example, you sent your girls to Bais Yaakov or a less yeshivish kind of school.
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You'd be surprised. I've met all kinds of people on online forums -- including some very Chasidish ones. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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