First, I didn't mean that Olivia is the only good parent in the world or on Hatrack and I have amended that post to reflect that. I think that every Hatrack parent is a caring mom or dad who does his or her best to raise a happy, healthy child who will grow into a happy, healthy adult. Never did I think that what I said to Olivet would offend others. When I wrote that post, it was very early in the thread and it was the last post I had read before typing my reply. My intention was to let Olivet know that I wasn't lumping her in with the parents I was referring to. The posts between hers and mine were written before I posted mine. I guess I forgot that I wasn't exactly talking to Olivet in private and that although I was addressing her, others would also hear what I was saying. I also thought that this thread would die out after a dozen or so posts.
I never meant to imply that any Hatrack parents are bad parents who don't care what their children do. I am truly sorry that people took my words that way. solo, ela, Belle - it never entered my mind that you aren't excellent parents, so I didn't think I had to say that I think you are.
I never meant this to turn into a child behavior thread. I just wanted to see what people thought about having a very few places that were child-free. I used that term deliberately, because saying adult-only has some, um, negative connotations. I don't want to ban children from entering public places. I don't want to change family-friendly restaurants. I don't want people to stop taking their children to movies. I just want one or two alternatives for myself.
Maybe if I share something personal, it will make my perspective clearer. I love children. Andrew and I desperately want to have children. For the entire time we have been married, we have been trying to conceive. We have spent a huge chunk of our savings. I have taken pills and shots that have taken their toll on my body and mind. We have given up bedroom romance for clinical techniques. Seven months after we were married, I got pregnant on our fourth try. Only people who have experienced infertility can know how ecstatic we were. I have never experienced such pure joy.
Try to imagine what it was like for us when I lost that baby. I hope none of you ever experience anything like it. The guilt and despair are overwhelming. I haven't been able to get pregnant since and every month that goes by, my already-slim chances decrease. Then there's the fact that I am accomplishing what Hitler could not and ending the Marx line (Andrew's grandparents are the only survivors from their families). Andrew's brother will never have children, so we're it. I am failing in my most basic duty to the person I love most in the world. There's not a day that goes by that that doesn't eat at me. Then there's the fact that several of my friends have had babies. I am genuinely happy for them, but it's hard to see them easily succeeding where I have tried and failed so many times. I want to share the experience of being a young mom with my friends.
The people who suggested that I am unsympathetic to parents are right. It's hard for me to have sympathy for any and every parent because I would gladly give all that I own to be in their shoes. I know it's unfair and unreasonable of me and I'm sorry.
Belle, it is hard for me to feel compassion for the problems of young mothers because it is my dream to have those problems. You overcame your PCOS to have 4 beautiful children. I am not so lucky and I probably never will be. Every time I see parents with their children I think, why them and not us? There are times when being around children is difficult for me and for Andrew. We realize that that's our problem and we try our best to keep it to ourselves. But infertility takes its toll on a marriage and there are times when we like to take a night off from the heartache. We're simple people - we like to go out to supper and to the movies. On nights like these, we don't want to be around children. We need to not be around children. I just want someplace where we can go.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mrs M, I'm sorry I got snappy with you earlier in the thread. It seemed to me that you came out swinging and this topic really touched a nerve from me. It seems that the desire to protect my children can bring out the beast in me and that's not fair.
And for the record, I'd rather die than let my kids run around in a busy restuarant.
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Like many of the other parents, I was offended by the initial post. Despite the fact that my boys generally get compliments on their public behavior, I am hypersensitive to the critical glances of those around us.
It's like the difference between saying to someone, "I'm fat," and a stranger coming-up to you and saying, "You're fat."
As a parent, I'm already so sensitive to the issues that it is something that only I can criticize in myself without feeling snarked at.
Because of this, I am very sympathetic to the struggling mother and grateful to the CT's of the world who make my kids like people.
I was a waitress for years and certainly spend alot of time now, out and about at both public places and in private homes. Only two things really irk me: 1)When the parents yell at, belittle or hit the child that has misbehaved and 2)When I see an unattended child who is younger than 10.
In both instances, I feel like I'm in a no win situation: Get involved and feel the wrath of the parent; don't get involved and fear for the safety of the child.
I think that we could go a long ways towards getting the kids out of the adult restaurants if there were more kid friendly restaurants that offered decent/interesting food.
I think it's a shame that you're forced to eat a greasy burger or bland pizza if you want to eat-out and let your kids have fun at the same time. Why do they only have play areas at places that serve lousy/boring food.
As a parent, I'd love to be able to go to a decent restaurant, have the kids behave like properly trained humans for 15 minutes until the order is placed; let them play for 30 minutes while waiting for the food; then have them sit and eat for 15 minutes.
If there were places like this available, you'd never have to worry about me taking the kids into an intimate restaurant.
Regarding theaters, I have been disturbed by cell phone conversations and rowdy teens many more times than by noisy children. Luck of the draw I guess.
I take my 8 yr old and his friend to the movies at least twice a month. We see PG and PG13 movies that fit in with what the kids know and like. I'll look at the content first and the rating second. Sometimes we go to a matinee, sometimes we'll go after dinner.
My kids are night owls. They stay up until 11PM on school nights and 12:30 on Friday and Saturday. They are happy, healthy, at the top of of their classes in school and on-time every morning. I mention this to rebut the idea that having a child up until midnight is child abuse.
In general, I just can't see banning kids from restaurants and theaters because they're a "nuisance". As has been said before, I've encountered more ill behaved adults than children and noone is offering me and my family a "jerk free" zone.
Sadly, I agree that those who don't want to be around children for whatever reason should have that right. I just don't want the only good theater or the only decent restaurants in my area to suddenly become off-limits.
Mrs M- I know so many people who have the exact same heartache.
One of my best friends of many years, started to avoid me when I had my first son. Hurt, I asked why. She said that it just hurt too much to be around my son. She said it was like putting salt on a wound and she couldn't put herself through that, not even for our friendship.
I can empathize with your point of view and I wish you the very best in your efforts to have a baby.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I'm kinda split on this one...the movies is a no brainer. I would pay extra to not hear a kid whine. But restaurants...sometimes there is nothing better for me than making faces at a two or three year old as a date turns sour. But when they reach an age where cuteness has worn off and they can't behave y'know around 7 it gets annoying to hear a tantrum. My fiance fears the day we have kids because if they are like me they'll be easily entertained by anything...as in the stirring soap opera "All My Condiments." Sisters Salt Shaker and Pepper Shaker are involved in a love triangle with the tall, built Ketchup Bottle. While Detective T.(Tabasco) Sauce matches wits with criminal mastermind/business tycoon Sir Worchester of Saucery. Posts: 5 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I don't have much to add to what's already been said. We've been lucky so far in that Ryan has never cried or complained the few times we've taken him to restaurants. Even during a period where he was really fussy about eating (acid reflux), he was perfectly fine when we had to feed him at a restaurant once. And yes, I know, that won't always be the case. We will, however, take him out immediately if he begins to be a disturbance.
Mrs.M, I want you to know that your in my thoughts and prayers and have been for a while. My wife and I went through infertility, so I know what it feels like each time the results comes back negative and I know how painful it can be sometimes to be around babies. I can only imagine what it is like to become pregnant and lose the child.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mrs. M, I'm glad you posted because after last night, I was thinking (I was in bed and couldn't sleep) and it occurred to me that your infertility problems might be one of the reasons you reacted the way you did.
I know about your struggle with PCOS and I do sympathize and I do know exactly how you feel. I should have been more considerate, and I should have had more compassion about your own situation.
I remember when I was undergoing treatment having to leave a party in tears because all the women there were excitedly talking about one woman's impending childbirth. She was nine months along and in fact she did go into labor late that night after the party.
I've moved past that - I'm beyond the frustration and pain of infertility and into the frustration that parenting brings. When I did that though, I should not have forgotten the pain I left behind.
You have my deepest apology for my lack of compassion toward you.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Oh. I'm sorry, Mrs. M. My heart goes out to you. I'm never sure what to say to those who have trouble having children. We have the opposite problem. I think it's a mixed blessing either way.
And if it's any consolation, I do know what it's like to lose a child.
Anyway, you won't be seeing my kids in any restaurants or theaters, not unless the city I live in builds a dollar theater. Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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*hugs Mrs. M* Sweetie, I wondered if that was part of the annoyance. I like silence as much as the next person, but the baby-hormones aren't simmering in me, so I don't notice children. It's like when you're shopping for a car, all of sudden you notice the make of every car on the road.
quote:There's nobody walking around with a stick and thumping people when they fall asleep.
posted
Thanks for the kind words, y'all. They do make me feel better.
Controlling my envy of parents is something I work on. I realize that everyone has something that someone else wants. Some of my single friends were in that position when I got married. I understood why they were being snarky, but it still hurt. I've said to people, "Just because I'm married doesn't mean that my life is perfect and all my problems have disappeared." In this thread, the shoe's on the other foot and it never occurred to me to look at it that way.
Belle, my instinct was to be totally unfair to you (and to every other Hatrack parent). "Who cares if her feelings were hurt in Target - she got to go home with her beautiful children." "Who cares that young mothers are exhausted and worried - they have their babies to comfort them." I'm at the point where I (usually) stop those thoughts immidiately and tell myself, "Kira, that's not fair. Just because they have what you want doesn't mean that their problems are invalid." Some days it's just harder than others.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Now, on to the "other" revelation. It is okay if we add our prayers to yours? I watched a cousin go throught this and it was just hard. No-one understood why she kept trying. And she eventually did adopt a beautiful girl who is every bit her daughter and her husband's daughter. But the process of getting to that decision was painful for everyone. And necessary.
Without it, our family wouldn't have X and she's the best kid we could've ever asked for. Bright, beautiful and charming. And she's just as much part of the family as any of the other kids.
I know you'll make a great mom simply because you care so much about it. I hope it happens for you in exactly the way you want. And I hope whoever enters your life, through whatever (legal) means, that it gives you great joy!
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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This isn't supposed to be disrespectful, but serious.
quote: Then there's the fact that I am accomplishing what Hitler could not and ending the Marx line (Andrew's grandparents are the only survivors from their families). Andrew's brother will never have children, so we're it. I am failing in my most basic duty to the person I love most in the world. There's not a day that goes by that that doesn't eat at me.
Actually, this reminds me a lot of Isaac and Rebekah...and you know how that turned out!
I don't know if you are a believer in that...sorry, I haven't seen a lot of your posts. But if you are, maybe that can give you a bit of comfort...but maybe you already thought of this yourself.
Posts: 264 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Mrs. M, I am sorry about your infertility problems, and all that you have had to go through. Losing a baby is very hard, especially after all that, too. I have to deal with moms who have lost babies, sometimes, in my job, and I have to admit that at times I am not quit sure what to say to them.
(((Mrs. M)))
I think that LadyDove's remarks here really pinpointed why some of us got offended or bent out of shape by some of the remarks made.
quote:Like many of the other parents, I was offended by the initial post. Despite the fact that my boys generally get compliments on their public behavior, I am hypersensitive to the critical glances of those around us.
It's like the difference between saying to someone, "I'm fat," and a stranger coming-up to you and saying, "You're fat."
As a parent, I'm already so sensitive to the issues that it is something that only I can criticize in myself without feeling snarked at.
As I said in my post, we live in a society that is often intolerant of children, and those of us who are parents have become hypersensitive to criticism, when most of us are doing the best we can, and trying to be considerate of those around us.
quote: Mrs. M, you seem to be generalizing quite a bit here.
You wouldn't remember the golden children who were perfect angels. They fly below your radar.
You are coming accross not as someone who is annoyed at children in restaurants, but of offspring in general. I don't think that you mean to come accross this way.
I agree with Mrs. M. So tell me, what did she or I say that was a generalization?
What is wrong with wanting one restaurant that isn't a circus? NOTHING. I wish I had one that didn't cost $50 a plate in my area. Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I caught about five minutes of Dr. Laura on the radio today, and the call she was taking at the time was a young woman asking if it was okay for her 18mth old son to wander around a bagel shop they went to frequently. Her son, I guess, was a picky eater, and the only way she could get him to eat much at all was to let him walk around with the food in hand. Well, a couple of men, also regulars of the shop, finally said they'd appreciate it if she kept her kid with her rather than letting him wander around.
Now, assuming this child is pretty low key and doesn't get into anything, I still thought this was ridiculous. Not the men. The mom. First, don't most humans, when hungry, eat? I have two kids, both of whom are good eaters, but I figured that part of that was that I was willing for them to go hungry if they were. If they don't eat at the meal, that's their choice. They might find something more to their liking at the next meal or scheduled snack. Secondly, when you give in to a child's weird eating habits when they are little, when does it stop? So he's 18mths old now, is she going to still be held hostage to his walking and eating habit when he's 3? 5? 10? At what point does he start to learn table manners? Does she think it's actually going to get easier as he gets older?
posted
(((Mrs. M))) I have a friend who is getting older and her own family think she doesn't want a baby and she is too proud to tell them. We talked about it the other night and it really rang with what you said.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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AJ, honestly, I was surprised. She said that if the kid isn't doing anything other than looking at people when he wanders around, then it's okay and just ignore the two curmudgeons.
Personally, I don't think kids should wander around restaurants, even in a casual bagel shop. It's *such* a bad habit to start, and can be spectacular to break.
When my son was 3ish, he was SO unpredictable in restaurants that I finally decided that the best thing would be to have a training session. He needed to learn how to behave in restaurants. So I picked a restaurant that is *always* empty, largely because their food sucks. It's awful. We went one night when I was pretty sure Christian was going to be a monster. We were the only customers. When we got to the table, I offered him a booster seat or a high chair. He chose the booster seat, because he could get out of it. I told him that he could stay in the booster seat as long as he...well, as long as he stayed in it. If he got up, he'd have to sit in the high chair. The predictable happened, and I stuffed him into the high chair, where he proceeded to scream bloody murder for a solid half hour. My friend and I just ignored it and ate the awful food when it came. The servers seemed amused once they were clued in to what I was doing.
Long story short, it broke some of the worst of his habits.
I left them a huge tip. They deserved it. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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