quote:I see a difference between doing something that is CONTRARY to someone's religion -- something they view as harmful -- and something they simply view as useless.
rivka, what about people who believe that religion is harmful? There are certainly people out there like that.
quote:There is a difference between doing something spiritual on behalf of a person who doesn't believe in spiritual things, and doing something spiritual to a spiritual person against their will. To Paul, prayer doesn't matter. but to me, baptism does.
Belle, I'm not trying to be rude, but would it be accurate to say that it all boils down to that you are assured that your way is the right way?
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Thus far I think I pretty much agree with fugu (if I'm understanding him right). I don't really want people to pray for me, and to be honest it bothers me when people do. But I also understand the context in which the prayer is offered, and I appreciate the fact that the person cares and is trying to do right by me.
Ic, I agree with you to a point. It does get to the point where it's unreasonable to expect everyone to figure out everyone else's pet peeves before communicating with them. And maybe people should be less sensitive. But then, it's an emotional response, and emotions are not often reasonable.
I think it's really not reasonable to say, "You shouldn't feel the way you feel. It's silly. Get over it." People are pretty much going to feel however they feel and be offended or touched by whatever they will. However, it's quite reasonable to say, "Feel however you want about it, but try to restrain your behaviors."
If I treat someone in a way that they do not wish to be treated, then I am harming them. Most of the time I am not doing any serious or lasting harm, but I am still harming them. Knowingly harming someone indicates disrespect. Unknowingly harming someone does not, but subsequently finding out and then not apologizing does. However, respect for a person is not necessarily the most important thing. Some people think that respect for a deity or group of deities is more important than respect for people. For many people saying "I know you don't want it but I will pray for you anyway" is exactly like saying "I know you like heroin, but I'm putting you into rehab anyway." You choose your priorities.
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I think I agree with you, Mike. Point of clarification, though:
quote:Unknowingly harming someone does not, but subsequently finding out and then not apologizing does.
You mean apologizing for having made someone uncomfortable, or apologizing for having prayed? Because I certainly don't think one ever needs to apologize for having prayed. I can see apologizing for having made somebody uncomfortable. But to tell you the truth, I don't think it's necessary in this situation either. If it were me (theoretically) and I found out after the fact that this was someone's--say Paul's--hot button, I would be more inclined to file that knowledge away for future reference. But to bring it up again might make Paul uncomfortable again, and in any case I would hope that he would be charitable, knowing that my intent was not to disrespect, but to encourage and demonstrate my sympathy, and simply blow it off.
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I'm afraid you're confusing others' prayers for you with your knowledge of them. I could set up a 24 hour prayer vigil for you down here in Tyler Texas (actually, I probably could, since there's a baptist church for every stop sign) but as long as you don't know about about it, it's just a bunch of people praying to a God you don't belive in asking him to do something you don't believe he's going to do. That doesn't harm you. It does, however, have benefit for those who are praying. It strengthens their relationship with God to have contact with him, and it is all they can do to help you.
On the other hand, for them to tell you they are doing this as if you owed them some gratitude for it is really inexcusable considering your beliefs.
I'll trace a woodgrain line for you would have as much meaning.
It is an important distinction, because my prayer is between me and God. My relationship with you is between me and you. It's utterly pointless and possibly harmful for me to expect you to appreciate my woodgrain-line tracing.
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This is a very frustrating topic for me, because I've seen the same themes in prior threads. Mainly the two that have been cited before, the "Happy Christmas" thread and the "Baptism for the Dead" thread.
Any of you who feel that LDS Baptism for the Dead is offensive to you (when applied to you or your loved ones): If you were told that a baptism were to happen, and you respectfully declined, would you then be horrified to discover that they quietly did it behind your back? In their minds, it truly would have no effect on the baptized's religious beliefs during life and would certainly not harm dead.
Constantly, my beliefs are belittled because they do not involve God or Heaven or Hell. For example, in this case many people are insisting that it's rude for me to decline an offer of prayer. Secretly, they're offended that their religion does not match up to my beliefs. And they'll pray for me anyhow.
Telling me to my face that you'll still pray for me is quite disrespectful. Leading me to believe you won't but then praying anyway is still disrespecting my wishes. I am, in a way, a spiritual person. I believe that emotions, actions, and thoughts affect people. And no, it isn't good enough that you have "good intentions." It doesn't work that way for me. Is it not enough that I and other people find hurt in your prayer?
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I think IdemosthenesI's post answers that point quite nicely. Somebody's private prayers are between them and God. You have no right to insist on what the content of those prayers can be.
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Icarus: As long as you have no problem with another religion baptizing you after you're dead, then I think you have complete concordance with your beliefs.
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Actually, I do. Its my name thats being brought into another relationship. I can ask that it not be, and if the person refuses, I can tell them they're causing me pain.
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That only holds if you believe that relationship to be real. If you believe God does not exist, then you believe the person praying does not truly have a "relationship" while they are praying, they are simply deluding themselves. If prayer is to a God you really do believe in, then by all means, the person praying should respect your wishes in whether ot not they pray for you. If not, it's silly to try to restrict a ritual that has no meaning for you anyway.
Keep in mind, I am still behind you 100% that they shouldn't lord it over you or expect you to be encouraged. I'm gonna have to stand behind their right to pray how they see fit, though.
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Well, I guess there isn't really an argument, Icarus, between us because it's really just a difference of worldview.
What I'm most frustrated with are people who view the two as completely separate situations. Their religion means MUCH more than my beliefs.
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Paul, I think I understand how you feel to some degree, but I think it's picky enough that you would be causing yourself pain. You might as well tell everyone on the planet to never speak of you or have thoughts of you or anything, regardless of the content. What if I'm praying something like "Gee that Paul is a great guy, and he has a lot to offer someone. I hope he finds a great partner." (I don't know about your marriage status or orientation or anything; it's just for example.) Are you going to be insulted that I thought about you because your name was brought up in my mind?
I realize that there is a big difference between an unwanted prayer and just some conversation or thoughts that someone is having about you. But I think the same effort would have to be put in on your part just to think, worry about, or even police it. You'd just be stressing yourself out.
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quote:You mean apologizing for having made someone uncomfortable, or apologizing for having prayed? Because I certainly don't think one ever needs to apologize for having prayed.
I can see your point, Ic, but it's all relative. I'm not sure I have the best idea of your particular religious beliefs, but you must think that because in one way or another you are comfortable with the idea of prayer.
Let's look at a different example. My mother's mother is Japanese, was born in Japan and lived there until she got married. My mother's father is Caucasian and was born in Arkansas. My mother doesn't look particularly Asian. One day a customer came into her store (she is the owner and sole employee of a copy, typesetting and office supply store) who was a World War II veteran. He hated all Japanese people and said to my mother (I'm not sure how the conversation came to this) that he thinks all the Japanese should go back to Japan and get the hell out of this country. He didn't realize my mother was half-Japanese; he probably thought she was Native- or Latin-American. Now, really, since this man has no political influence, his belief can't physically harm my mother or any of her family, provided he doesn't assault one of them. But he did unknowingly make her uncomfortable and probably hurt her feelings. Should he apologize for making her uncomfortable, or should he apologize for hating Japanese people?
Some people would say he should apologize for being a racist. Others would say that he's free to believe whatever he wants, so he should only apologize for making her uncomfortable. Still others would say, for whatever reason, that he should do neither.
I don't mean this as an attack on religion, but from a purely logical point of view and in the absence of proof, how can any belief be more than an opinion? And if it's not more than an opinion, albeit a strong and important one (to the holder of the opinion), why should it logically be privileged over other opinions?
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Isn't Paul Jewish? Why do people keep saying he doesn't believe in God? He just doesn't believe in your version of it. (Though, he may be an atheist, or in a "non-religious" period in his life right now, I have no idea, but it is a little distracting that people keep saying he doesn't believe in God when I didn't realize it had been established that he didn't.)
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Jack- I'm an atheist Jew. However, this problem probably arises for a number of different people who believe in different gods.People who pray for muslims, or wiccans, or hindus, etc.
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Actually, I think Jews and Christians believe in the same God. (Or, maybe Jews don't see it that way. It would be understandable if they didn't.)
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quote:Mormons always get upset when people say they are not Christian, yes? Well, part of being Christian to me, is recognizing that anyone who says they believe in Jesus Christ as their personal savior is a Christian and is saved. That means that person could be Baptist, Methodist, Mormon, Catholic or undeclared. I recognize you as a brother in faith when you tell me you are a Christian.
I was at the Southern Baptist Convention about 3 years ago. Had a brief chat with a Baptist Minister from Utah. He quoted me the scripture that, in his mind, justified saying that LDS members were NOT his brothers and sisters in Christ (i.e. he believed that they ARE NOT Christians). It was one of the reasons I decided that the Baptist faith was not for me. I realize he could be dead wrong in the eyes of every other Baptist on the planet, but the fact is, he was not. My own favorite minister gave a cogent and heartfelt testimony AGAINST ecumenicalism (ecumenism?) not more than 3 weeks later. In which he basically concluded that everyone who wasn't Baptist was making a grave error, and so a friendly dialog about our shared points of faith was not worth the time.
Sadly, there are many other sects whose leadership think along the same lines. So as much as I'd love to believe that we all consider each other brothers and sisters in Christ, mostly what I've encountered is a lot of "y'all are poor deluded near misses in Christ." And this is especially true among the evangelical denominations (I'm including Baptists, Pentacostals, and a whole slew of small "bible centered" or "bible based" groups out there).
Your church must be different. And that's one great thing about the Baptists. Each church pretty much decides for themselves without any true central control. Unfortunately, that lack of central control means that the truly off-kilter folks like my friendly minister at the SBC have no-one but their own church members to correct them and their mistaken interpretations of scripture.
Or, maybe it's just you who are enlightened. I felt like the only person in my church who didn't think that Baptist was the only true and correct faith and all others were a path to hell. And I'm not kidding either. They talked about it in exactly those terms!!!
quote:However, this problem probably arises for a number of different people who believe in different gods.People who pray for muslims, or wiccans, or hindus, etc.
Then this is really about religion, and not so much about prayer. You don't want to be condescended to because you don't believe the way others do. And someone praying specifically for you to start believing in God is condescending. You don't want somebody trying to press their religion on you, especially behind your back.
What if you got seriously ill and someone was praying that you could get better? If the person praying had no thoughts about trying to convert you through prayer--just hoping to help you in your need? Is it the fact that they are trying to help, or is it the fact that they're using an overtly religious way of doing it?
I don't think that prayer with that intent is condescending or an attempt to force religion on you. If someone sent you flowers when you were at the hospital, would you refuse them? This is, to some degree, the same intent as a prayer on your behalf.
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2) Someone asks me NOT to pray for them, I honor their wishes.
3) I think someone needs prayers from me, but I'm not sure of their religious beliefs: I don't ask, and I don't tell them, I just pray. And I don't let them know about it later either. Like if something good happens I don't go up to them and say "well, shoot, of course it did, I put you on the prayer list at my church and we had 50 souls just a'prayin' over your situation!" (note-- actual quote)
I don't see how any of that is wrong. If I pray for Paul without his knowing and before I know that he doesn't want ANYONE to pray for him, then worst case, it's just wasted effort arising from ignorance of his wishes.
Barring certain obvious situations, like a death in the family, I think it is wrong to go up to someone you barely know and INFORM them that you'll be praying for them. Whether they want the prayers or not.
Because: 1) you are assuming you know more about the situation than you really do -- right? I mean if they didn't tell you about it, how did you get your information? Rumor mill, usually. So...
2) You are letting them know that they and their situation have become a topic of "discussion" in the community, and that everyone things its bad, whatever it is.
3) You are also saying that you simply assume they need prayers. Like they couldn't possibly be working on an effective solution themselves.
Face it, most people are intensely private individuals. They don't want to be "talked about." And certainly almost nobody wants pity. If its over a death in the family, you can pretty much assume that social conventions are that you can offer prayers and condolences without a big discussion.
But if it's loss of a job? Or divorce? Or the kids are on crack and selling their bodies on street corners, you'd better know that person really, really well before discussing them in prayer groups...
I know a lot of this can be done anonymously. Perhaps that's better.
But before you try to comfort someone (with an offer of prayer, or a loan, or your shoulder to cry on) I think it's important to know what they want. If you weren't their intimate friend before, the fact that they are facing a tragedy isn't going to make them suddenly want to be your intimate friend now.
Not if they are like most people.
Anyway, that's what I think.
Sorry if I haven't kept up with this thread all along and so have reopened dead arguments. I read through most of the thread though.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
The intent and the method are two completely different things. The reason "I'll pray for you" and a bouquet of flowers are so different is that the prayer has a very specific spritual meaning. Not only that, but it carries a weight that "I'll be thinking of you" and other such platitudes just don't have. For religious people, it means that I will intercede to God on your behalf. It is (or should be) a big deal, not just a synonym for "Best wishes."
If I send you flowers, I usually intend to encourage you. But if I insist on praying for you to your face knowing that it won't encourage you, I have done only harm. My prayers don't lose effectiveness if you remain ignorant of them.
Posts: 894 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:1) you are assuming you know more about the situation than you really do -- right? I mean if they didn't tell you about it, how did you get your information? Rumor mill, usually. So...
2) You are letting them know that they and their situation have become a topic of "discussion" in the community, and that everyone things its bad, whatever it is.
Like many here, though, you have made up a scenario that may or may not fit all the facts. What if I am the one who told you about it?
I have had situations where I told a Christian friend my troubles, not because I wanted his or her prayers, but because this person was a friend and I wanted someone to talk to. I have also had situations where I mentioned something I was struggling with in passing, not as a profound unburdening of my soul to somebody I knew well, but as a passing mention of something I was struggling with. And I have had people tell me under both circumstances that they will pray for me. It makes me feel kind of awkward, because I don't share their belief, but they didn't know. They meant well, and I appreciate that, and I'm touched by their sincere gesture. It affects me about as much as receiving flowers or a card does, and I don't spurn it, much like I would not spurn flowers or a card. I don't get who would spurn flowers or a card.
quote:3) You are also saying that you simply assume they need prayers. Like they couldn't possibly be working on an effective solution themselves.
No. You are saying that you can't think of another way to help. (Or that you can and you are doing both, because you think the prayer will help too. You are displaying your assumption here that prayer is in lieu of something useful.)
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posted
Just to clarify, IdemosthenesI, since you posted while I was typing. I am equating prayers to flowers on the recipient's end. And I generally agree with you regarding openly belittling somebody's wishes when you know them.
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Tom: no clue where that came from, really. And reading voodoo doll of Suneun, I had a shiver run down me. And a bit of ill-feeling, actually. Just ask Mike (#55), things affect me very strongly and I become wrapped up in them for days, ruminating.
posted
I think Tom intended to do a voodoo doll of IdemosthenesI, not you Suneun. But you'd better send him some money just in case.
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Bob, are you under the impression I'm baptist?
I'm not. I belong to an independent church. And I don't know what our pastor thinks about Mormons, it's never come up.
I don't believe everyone who calls themselves Mormon is saved no more than I believe every person who says they are Catholic are saved. Or methodist, or baptist, or presbyterian.
I believe those who accept Jesus as their personal savior are then saved. I don't believe belonging to a particular denomination is necessary (I don't even think baptism is necessary for salvation).
The Baptist convention can say all it wants to about Mormons, I still believe what I believe. Though, I must admit I agree with the Southern Baptist convention more times than not.
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quote:Like many here, though, you have made up a scenario that may or may not fit all the facts. What if I am the one who told you about it?
quote:1) Someone asks me to pray for them, I always do.
2) Someone asks me NOT to pray for them, I honor their wishes.
3) I think someone needs prayers from me, but I'm not sure of their religious beliefs: I don't ask, and I don't tell them, I just pray.
I think this pretty much covers it. If you tell me your problem and I think you are worth praying for, I'll certainly do it unless you ask me not to. If I know you don't like that kind of thing, I wont do it. If I don't know, I wont tell you and I won't ask. I think it's presumptuous.
I mean, if someone tells me something that I think is completely prayer-worthy, I might ask them IF they are a praying person, or if they would MIND if I prayed about it.
I find that people who don't pray, by the way, are almost ALWAYS offended if you say things like "I will pray FOR you." But if you ask if you can pray ABOUT the situation, it usually isn't a big deal."
I don't think it's all that hard to be sensitive to the comfort-level of others on this score.
And I think just blurting out "I will pray FOR you" is bound to be viewed as insensitive at some point by some people, even those who are religious.
Maybe it sounds like a bunch of semantics. But I think it's just trying to be polite.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
To clarify: I meant that my intent in telling you that I would keep you in my prayers would be much the same intent as giving you flowers.
However, in practice, while I would hope that flowers would brighten your day a little, I wouldn't expect them to help you actually get better. But I would actually pray that you might have help getting better, and I would actually believe that the prayer might be beneficial to you.
One big distinction I am trying to bring out, that keeps getting muddled in this thread, is that a prayer on your behalf does not have to be an attempt to convert you. That it could be a gesture of support, and at the same time an attempt to help you in your need.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Sorry for adding my honest comments. I did not write with rudesness in my heart, but just as some people here would construe unasked for prayer as rudeness, the distinct lack of gratitude for a simple act of kindness was to my mind also impolite.
I am sorry you did not understand this point: my four footed member of the family has no ideas of the intent of a blond dog, but barks any way, so do you have no feeling for the intent of the proffered prayer, and you bark too. I never meant that you were a canine in any respect, but that in the absence of knowledge of intent you protest away. My apologies. Our animals are anthropomorphized in every respect around here.
My point was that I am by nature a prayer and you are not. You cannot prevent me from acting within my nature.
I wonder if my athiest husband is so insulted every time our family gathers for family prayer...hmmmm.
By the way I never intimated you were friendless, but for a segment of the population, you would certainly be a difficult friend to have.
posted
"I wonder if my athiest husband is so insulted every time our family gathers for family prayer...hmmmm"
Probably not. But if you told him, when you went to prayer, that you were praying for him, he might well be.
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Backing up a bit because i had to go find a reference --
Pooka, it was katharina who posted the wording, and somehow I find it hard to believe one would doubt her credentials in the LDS church (I'm not qualified to judge, myself, but she's always struck me as a very devout person).
to quote her:
quote:For a living person:
"Having been commisioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, [name], in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
For proxy for someone dead.
"Having been commisioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, [name], for and in behalf of [name], in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
A question, if someone wishes to answer: in the baptism for the living does the one being baptized say amen? If so, I don't find the "needing to respond with amen makes it optional" idea particularly convincing as an argument. It doesn't seem to be the case in this description of the ceremony: http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/respri2.htm (I don't know how authoritative that source is, but they certainly seem to have done their research; its a professor's research site at UU and they cite their references).
Its not the offering of the baptism that offends me at all; its that the ritual as described in brief isn't offering the baptism but asserting it regardless of someone's wishes. I believe LDS members when they tell me that it is only intended to be an offering, to which I would suggest that then the ritual should be one of offering.
I dislike continuing things such as that discussion, and I'm certain its going to end in an agree to disagree situation, but I also strongly dislike when someone doesn't understand what I mean; I always feel as if it has been a failure on my part to explain.
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I don't know how I came to the conclusion that you were Baptist, but yes, I was sure you are/were.
Sorry.
Anyway, I applaud your view on it.
Sorry about the diatribe about the SBC. I have to say that that "convention" was the beginning of the end for me and the Baptist Church. After that, I saw the whole thing in a far different light.
I still admire many Baptists.
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Look at the wording. The person being spoken to is the proxy being physically dunked. What you're talking about, adding an "if the person really wants it, but this isn't binding unless they do" is meta-data - like it's an aside that should be said sotto voce. It's also unnecesary meta-data, because it only "takes", for the living or dead, if a heart is changed.
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Fugu, the words come from prophets. They weren't written by committee. If you want them changed, you can go to the source. <-- smiley face to indicate good will
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posted
Were it just the for, I'd likely be okay. And behalf has too meanings, one of which would be identical to for in this context, and the other of which would mean acting as an agent of . . .
I suppose I could just think the LDS prophets are overly verbose. Better to give the benefit of the doubt. There we go. I'm no more offended by the idea than I am by prayers on my behalf, now (which isn't very).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Ic, I wasn't really trying to equate spirituality with racism. You asked whether the person in question should apologize for offering the prayer or for making the person uncomfortable. Then you said that you didn't think a person should ever have to apologize for praying. My question was: if a belief cannot logically be distinguished from an opinion, under what circumstances should a person apologize for holding an opinion? I offered two instances of one person doing something, based on a belief or opinion, that offended another person. In either circumstance, should the offender apologize to the offendee for his action or the result or both? If the answers are different in the two cases, why? Does it depend on the subject of the belief? Or is it because of motivation?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
How about a different example, one that doesn't have as negative a motivation as my first one? A woman begins working in a new office. One of her male co-workers constantly makes jokes of a sexual nature, some of which are explicit, many of which are chauvenist. She knows he's not trying to be rude; he's just treating her like he treats everyone else. "Everyone else" is mostly male, but there are a few other women in the group, and none of them seem to mind. Some of them even actively participate. But it really bothers this new woman. It offends her and makes her uncomfortable in her work environment.
Should the guy apologize and knock it off? Should the woman just accept that it's not meant in a bad way and get over it?
This type of scenario is exactly the kind of thing they teach you about in sexual harassment classes. Of course, having a random stranger offend you once and having a close co-worker offend you five days a week are not the same, but are the cases fundamentally different, or only in degree?
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posted
Personally I would expect that the Lord High God would have a pretty decent way with words -- but as I've explained before, this would mean to me being powerful in their simplicity rather than their verbosity.
I would certainly expect Him not to say "the rock was huge, gigantic, large, and big" or similar.
Probably one of the biggest reasons to me (not in terms of what the importance "should" be to me, but in terms of how I am and always will be) I will never be LDS is that the scripture just isn't very appealing to me textually.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I'm still working on it. I've gotten this far:
code:
CREATION OF EARTH Tasked to: God
I. DAY ZERO 1) Heaven 2) Earth i. without form ii. void iii. darkness on face of deep a. Spirit of God
II. DAY ONE 1) Light (Day) i. good ii. divided from darkness (Night)
III. DAY TWO 1) Firmament (Heaven) i. dividing waters, vertical
IV. DAY THREE 1) Dry Land (Earth) i. waters gathered (Seas) ii. good 2) Earth bring forth: i. grass a. seed 3. tree 4. seed (recursive) ii. good
V. DAY FOUR 1) Lights in firmament i. Lesser Light (Moon) a. signs b. seasons c. rule the Night d. give Light upon the Earth ii. Greater Light (Sun) a. signs b. days c. years d. rule the Day e. give Light upon the Earth iii. Additional Lights (inc. Stars) iv. good
VI. DAY FIVE 1. Waters bring forth Creatures i. moving creature a. has Life ii. fowl a. can fly in Heaven iii. whales 2. Creatures blessed i. fruitful ii. multiply a. Seas to be filled b. fowl in particular iii. good
VII. DAY SIX 1. Earth brings forth Creatures i. cattle ii. creeping thing iii. miscellaneous beasts iv. good 2. Man created i. Likeness of God ii. male iii. female 3. Man blessed i. fruitful ii. multiply iii. replenish Earth iv. subdue Earth v. dominion a. fish b. fowl c. moving living things on Earth 4. Meat Substitutes i. For Man a. herb-bearing seeds b. trees w/tree-yielding seeds ii. For living beasts, fowl, creeping things a. green herbs
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