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mackillian:"Do guys feel insecure when their SOs work out and are in better shape than them?"
Almost never, I would say. Most guys have no problem being in lousy shape themselves (unless they are really trying to attract a mate), but some of them still think their woman should be in perfect shape. And it's not a matter of health, it's all about looks. Yes, it's a double standard. It makes me very angry to hear about guys like this.
mackillian:"What makes some women intimidating...meaning, if you found them attractive/likeable, but would never approach them because she is intimidating?"
An inferiority complex, a lack of self-confidence. The feeling that she's "out of your league."
But it's also the idea of approaching her for purposes of "courtship," rather than simple human interaction. Courtship entails a whole new set of rules, and so when he approaches a woman with this in mind, he is trying to figure out what those rules are and how to apply them, and he probably doesn't have much experience with them. If he did, he would probably either already be attached, or he would be the obnoxious playboy type that doesn't get intimidated because he knows how to play the game.
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You know, speaking as a 22-year-old male heterosexual, I feel compelled to add that I'm not sure this thread is a very accurate depiction of my species - and I'm pretty sure it isn't a very universal depiction. Actual answers to most of these questions will vary to the extreme from guy to guy. And most guys, I think, are a good deal more complicated than this thread might suggest.
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Probably nothing. Men can be fairly dumb, and would rarely recognize a good thing if it came up and kicked them in the ass. So if nobody's noticing, then often times those people wouldn't be good enough for you anyway.
Sometimes you just have to wait for the right guy. Someone'll wise up sooner or later
And for those in a relationship who are asking us the question: ask them instead, and keep asking until they give a truthful answer. And understand that 'nothing' can often times be a very truthful answer, even if you don't believe it.
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Xap: then the questions in this thread are being directed to you as well. Feel free to give your own views! they'll be welcome.
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quote: Most guys have no problem being in lousy shape
As a fitness professional, I have to call shenanigans here. That statement is untrue. Most men have a very keen sense of what kind of shape theyre in, and are bothered by being out of shape. But don't want to do the things it takes to get into better shape.
Now, as far as having a significant other that is in better shape than they are: No. Men don't care. Men are TRYING to get with the hottest girl they possibly can.
The only guy I've ever seen actually be upset by that was a competition bodybuilder whose girlfriend was a figure competitor with a MUCH better record than his to boast about.
Posts: 2532 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I can't pretend to know the answer in your specific case, but having three sisters and several female cousins of my own who are similar circumstances, I feel like I can give a few (possibly) relevant opinions.
Guys in our western society are subtly taught what cues to look for from women to indicate that they are interested and available for a relationship. Some of these cues come under the heading of "flirting," but there are others. We are made to understand, though not in so many words, that such cues are inherent, perhaps instinctual behaviors that all women know and can use to perfect effect at their election. Why this should be so, when we know we are not automatically endowed with ability to read such cues, is a puzzle.
So we go around, looking frantically but furtively for the women that are sending us these cues. But the cues are actually taught, and not innate! Women learn this skill, if at all, from other women such as their mothers, older sisters, friends, etc. They might even learn some from popular culture, although these are sorely imperfect lessons. Some women are never taught the cues effectively, and some reject them as being demeaning or below them or silly.
But they can be learned. People can learn, sometimes through long, hard practice, what words and actions and attitudes effectively convey to another person that they are, in fact, interested and that they are available. This does NOT mean that the woman is responsible for the whole process. She is not. Guys have a long laundry list of things they need to do as well.
Again, I don't know your situation, so maybe this post isn't really directed to you at all. But I know it applies to the young women in my family.
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Though Strange To Me, is that I know many guys who actively attempt to Gain Weight, and are often stupendously unsuccessful. They add those awful protein powders to their orange juice and stuff like that.
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odouls268:"Most men have a very keen sense of what kind of shape theyre in, and are bothered by being out of shape. But don't want to do the things it takes to get into better shape."
Okay, you are right. I guess I meant that, on balance, men don't care about being out of shape. That is, they don't like the shape they're in, and they wish they were in better shape, but they would rather stay the way they are than change. So the equation comes out on the side of being out of shape and basically content with that.
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ak:"What makes some guys get angry at girls for being attractive?"
I honestly don't know what you're referring to. I thought it was just girls that got angry at each other for being attractive. ("Don't hate me because I'm beautiful")
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There is no logical sense to this at all. At first I thought perhaps it was because their SO would be getting looks from other guys - but this would be seen as an ego booster, because of the fact you chose him and not them.
So I'm at a loss. We LIKE our girls to be attractive.
Anyone else wanna give this a go?
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My go would be that some men feel as if attractive women have power over them, and they resent not being in control. It's projection: blame her for making you less of a man.
Not all guys, and not even many guys, but some guys. It's the stereotype that drives the pretty-woman-gets-sexually-fulfilled-then-killed movie, which is pretty common once you start looking for the theme.
It's also why I find strip clubs creepy. I worry about some messed-up guy getting stalkery on one of the women. (Not that sex drives you crazy, but it's just one of those things -- like D&D -- that seems to be a handy nail for that fabric to snag on.)
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Well, I guess if they see you as attractive, they see you as unattainable, and because of that, they assign all other sorts of characteristics to you. In short, your attractiveness alerts them to (or causes them to imagine) their own insecurities and failings, and, rather than accept such flaws or, better, do something about them, they just blame you for it.
The way to combat this is to make yourself more human to them, and the way to do that is to talk to them and make them aware of your own flaws, too. That's how everyone makes friends, by sharing weaknesses in one form or another and accepting each other. Shattering the image of the unattainable, sort of. That oughtta cool em down.
[ February 12, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
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Why do some guys have to pretend they never make a mistake? Is it seen as like a weakness or something to admit that? If so, wouldn't the fact that somebody was too insecure to ever be wrong strike people as the most glaring weakness of all?
Like when Bill Clinton apologized, I heard lots of guys put that down. As though apologizing is a very unmanly thing to do.
Do we all have to pretend all our lives that guys can't possible make mistakes?
I can see I have a lot of issues about dads and brothers and bfs that are coming out in this thread. <laughs> I keep thinking there's a way for me to understand things and then it all will suddenly make sense somehow.
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quote: (Not that sex drives you crazy, but it's just one of those things -- like D&D -- that seems to be a handy nail for that fabric to snag on.)
D&D? Dungeons and Dragons don't seem to quite fit in the context. Did you mean S&M. Or is it one of those terms Steve is going to be at me when I don't know what it is?
Do guys feel insecure when their SOs work out and are in better shape than them?
What makes some women intimidating...meaning, if you found them attractive/likeable, but would never approach them because she is intimidating?
Well, for me it would depend on what you mean by "in better shape". If its a question of overall physical fitness or body-fat content, absolutely not. A girl in good shape encourages me to get into better shape, and I'm usually very attracted to her. I'm half-way in love with my yoga teacher, largely because she is in absolutely perfect condition.
A girl who is stronger than me though would be intimidating. I don't mean a girl who can do more push-ups or pull-ups, but one who could beat me in arm wrestling or carry more cement bags. I've never actually met such a woman, but I'm sure they exist. Still though, it wouldn't be much of a turn-off to me unless the girl was overly masculine looking. I can't say whether that's true for all guys though.
As for what's normally intimidating, I think extreme beauty is the main one for me. I've only met a few women who were so drop-dead gorgeous its hard to even talk to them, but when I do I get really nervous.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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I responded to Mack's question without noticing page 4, and see that it was pretty much answered the same way mine was. Us guys do think alike in a lot of ways sometimes .
quote:Why do some guys have to pretend they never make a mistake? Is it seen as like a weakness or something to admit that? If so, wouldn't the fact that somebody was too insecure to ever be wrong strike people as the most glaring weakness of all?
Yes, yes, you'd think so, but they don't realize that if that is the case.
I actually am guilty of this sometimes. Mostly though I'm not serious. I actually angered my ex a few times by defending myself even in a stupid mistake. I was mostly just trying not to seem like an idiot I think. Intelligence is supposed to be my best quality, so I have to defend the illusion of it at all costs . I would admit that I made a mistake, but then immediately give a justification for why I made the mistake. Probably a bad habit, and I'm not sure why I do it. Just now in this post I admitted that I made the mistake of doing it sometimes, but was trying to think of a justification .
posted
Yeah, I can see myself admitting a mistake faster in the presence of a girl than I would a guy. That's just a generally stupid male thing. But the girl should be thankful, most guys don't admit mistakes at all. We don't like to appear stupid, ergo, we often seem stupid.
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You know, I didn't hear anyone dis Arnold Schwarzenegger for apologizing for groping all those women against their wishes. But then I guess he's not in danger of seeming not manly enough or something. I don't know.
The other thing that I wonder about is why it's such a horrible insult to mistake a guy for a girl online, but not vice versa? And why it's okay to give girls boys names but not the reverse? And basically why anything associated with women is seen as deeply shameful for guys, but not the reverse? Is being female really so mortifying? Someone once, as an insult, told me I threw a rock "just like a GIRL!" Should I have been deeply shamed by this?
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quote: A girl who is stronger than me though would be intimidating. I don't mean a girl who can do more push-ups or pull-ups, but one who could beat me in arm wrestling or carry more cement bags. I've never actually met such a woman, but I'm sure they exist. Still though, it wouldn't be much of a turn-off to me unless the girl was overly masculine looking. I can't say whether that's true for all guys though.
Yeah, I'm no longer in the shape I was in during my freshman year of college. But I would still consider myself more physically attractive at that point than at any other time in my life. I didn't have huge bulging muscles, other than swimmers shoulders, but apparently all the guys on my floor were terrified of me, and that was why they didn't ask me out. (I found this out years later of course.)
Even though they'd climb the hall walls with me. (You know when the walls are close enough together that you can clime up them either by straddling with your arms and legs or inching up with your back and feet.) In hindsight maybe I shouldn't have started climbing the walls, if I'd wanted a better love life at the time, but it was fun!
quote:The other thing that I wonder about is why it's such a horrible insult to mistake a guy for a girl online, but not vice versa? And why it's okay to give girls boys names but not the reverse? And basically why anything associated with women is seen as deeply shameful for guys, but not the reverse? Is being female really so mortifying? Someone once, as an insult, told me I threw a rock "just like a GIRL!" Should I have been deeply shamed by this?
Well, I think its actually something hard-wired into the male brain. We don't like to be seen as feminine. I think mostly because the "ideal" man is traditionally something like the marlboro man. Other than that I'm not really sure.
As for throwing like a girl, to me that's just a technical term used for anyone who throws with their elbows and not their whole arm. Mostly its an insult to guys, not because of its association with women, but for what it implies about their physical abilities.
I think the term is very nearly outdated, but I doubt it will go away completely any time soon. Watching women's softball is enough to get me to think it's due for an update . I mostly only use it to compliment girls who throw the correct way.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote: Here's another one: How do you handle (or do you handle) your gf having friendships with other guys?
To me this all depends on trust. If I really trust a girl, its all good.
True trust is hard to find though.
For me also it has a lot to do with physical contact. A male friend of my ex gave her a back massage right in front of me, and I pretty much stormed out of the room. Another time she rode piggy-back on a guy who had a crush on her since they were in Kindergarden in front of me. That didn't go over well with me at all.
Mostly its not a problem, but for the love of God keep your hands off her!
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Yeah, I generally am slow to trust in everything, including relationships. I usually try not to show it, though, cause that's a big con in significant others, and I know that. I've dealt with it well before, and I trusted them, but not their guy friends. Usually, if the guys haven't made a move before, they want to; and even if the guy friends in question have, they still think about it a lot.
That's just how we work. Sucks, huh?
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I have to say though that I have been on the other side of the scenario. I am very good friends with a girl Sarah I've known for years, and all her boyfriends end up jealous of me (well, before I moved 3000 miles away anyway).
Me and Sarah have never so much as kissed, and while she has admitted to having feelings for me once (while drunk ), I don't feel anything romantic for her and she knows that.
I sympathized with the guys, but I wasn't sure how to deal with the situation. Pretty much they just got to know me and realized that I'm not a threat (though some of them never did).
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quote: Why do some guys have to pretend they never make a mistake? Is it seen as like a weakness or something to admit that? If so, wouldn't the fact that somebody was too insecure to ever be wrong strike people as the most glaring weakness of all?
Ah, it's the old 'Why can't men stop and ask for directions' travesty.
It's one thing for us to make private mistakes - it's another for us to make mistakes that effect others. At least for me, this is incredibly embarrassing. And while I usually use self-deprecating humor to cope with it, it can be incredibly embarrassing for some to deal with.
My example would be the time I took that wrong turn at WenchCon on the way to Macaroni Grille, and ended up on a freeway. I was quite a bit nervous, seeing as it was raining, my vision was impared, and I had a TON of people in my car, most of whom were very uncomfortable.
And it was my fault, based on a stupid mistake I made. It was embarrassing.
People making light of the situation helps a little. But when people started asking questions that I didn't know the answer too, and I kept pointing out that I didn't know the answer to them, but the questions kept coming - I started going from embarrassed to annoyed.
One thing we hate hate hate is when people state the obviousness of a problem we got in, or ask us dumb questions concerning it that we obviously don't know as we're trying to concentrate on ways to FIX the problem.
It's not just being wrong that gets us angry, sometimes it's the way others seem to 'rub it in', or try and get us to REPEATEDLY admit our mistakes.
I'll admit it...just don't rub it in.
Sometimes the reason we don't stop for directions and get angry for you asking is not because we're ashamed too...it's because THERE'S NO WHERE TO DO IT, and we're looking for a place, and the fact that we know what to do added to the fact that you're telling us to do what we're trying to do but can't makes us annoyed.
When we're embarrassed, please - don't try and milk it. We're trying hard.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:How do you handle (or do you handle) your gf having friendships with other guys?
I don't have a problem with it. One of my wife's good friends is the guy she dated right before me. They still go out for lunch every once in a while. He and his wife are now good friends of mine as well and I trust everyone involved.
Besides, me and his wife go out to Universal once in a while and ride the roller coasters (we have passes) because the other 2 don't want to.
I still have lunch with 2 different girls that I've been friends with for a long time. My wife has no problem with it.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Does being beat at bowling or boggle by a girl make her less desireable? It clearly seems to have that effect. And would the same effect come into play if she beat OTHER people? Like if you watch your gf kick the winning goal in the soccer tournament, does that enhance her desireability, or decrease it?"
I know I'm a decade older than the target of these questions, but I have to say that I've never felt threatened by this kind of thing. I generally like it when my partner is better at things than I am--it gives me the opportunity to improve, and if I need help with something it's nice to have someone to turn to. My wife is more intelligent than I am (although ironically, people tend to underestimate her intelligence, in part because she's gorgeous, and in part because she doesn't see any point in displaying any "look at me, I'm smart" feathers), and I love that.
I've got a question of my own. You know the stereotype of men being squicked out at the prospect of having to buy tampons or pads? Does anyone actually feel that way? If so, why? I mean seriously, why on earth? Are you afraid that the checkout person will think that you menstrate? I've never understood that one. Then again, I've never found it embarassing to buy condoms either, and most of my friends do, so maybe I'm just odd.
Oh, and CT, Frisco's got it. C and I don't want kids, so there's a certain level of "whew" every time she gets her period.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I feign jealousy, in large part because I don't think my girlfriend thinks I get jealous enough
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I have to say, a lot of these responses make me kinda glad to be a 27 year-old MH, with my particular circle of friends. We don't seem to have a lot of the hangups or trust issues some of these younguns have. Maybe that's because we have a whole 'nother set of them
quote: Why do some guys have to pretend they never make a mistake? Is it seen as like a weakness or something to admit that? If so, wouldn't the fact that somebody was too insecure to ever be wrong strike people as the most glaring weakness of all?
Somehow, I don't think it's really a guy problem. It's everybody's problem. You don't want to make a mistake, especially in front of someone who cares for you ! You think it diminishes you ! We tend to forget that "to err is human". I really don't have that problem, but then again, I've had only one relationship in my 22 years on Earth, so maybe my way is the bad way I have a very good 21YOMH that's even readier to admit his errors than I am, but far from helping him to get into relationships, it made him "lose" to other guys who didn't open that much to the respective girl, but instead seemed very confident about everything. You know, the kind of "I'm absolutely in control" guys. Apparently, that works better sometimes… How else could you explain this: after getting very close to a girl, this friend of mine got rejected because he was supposed to go to another town the next year. Then this girl gets into a relationship with a guy she didn’t quite know, and who also was sure to leave ! (In fact, he dumped her after only a couple of month, because he didn't want to get too attached before leaving ! Go figure this one out ! And they say we're complicated ?! When do we get the "Ask the 22 Year Old Female Heterosexual" thread ?! )
quote: Someone once, as an insult, told me I threw a rock "just like a GIRL!"
As Xavier said, it's an insult because of "what it implies about their physical abilities". It's a fact that usually women have less physical force than men. And though I would not want to generalize this, few of the girls in my highschool were good at any form of sport. And since throwing rocks seems to be the most basic physical / sportive thing possible, "throwing like a girl" is an insult not because it refers to a "girl", but because it refers to this particular capability of "the common girl". (Wow, if anybody REALLY understands the above, please, send me an e-mail !)
Anyway, this "throwing like a girl" is like: "washing dishes like a man". Both say: "You really don’t have a clue about it", but neither means that one gender is, in general, superior to the other !
quote: Attractiveness makes women intimidating. It's much harder to talk to a woman you're attracted to than it is to talk to just about anyone else.
I think twinky made a confusion here: there are "generally attractive" women -> those who look like top-models, and those that you, as a single person, are attracted to. The first category, as Proust said, "should be left to the unimaginative men" (approx.). If the second intimidates a man, it means he's interested in her. He wants something from her, something he's not sure to get. And that uncertainty makes her intimidating. (it's always the unknown that frightens us, isn't it ?)
quote: Most guys have no problem being in lousy shape
Since I practiced a lot of sports and I never had weight problems, I don’t really know what lousy shape is . Now, for example, I am in a very demanding period in school, with just one and a half hour of archery per week, but I still have no physical problems whatsoever. But I have no idea what my reaction would be if, later in my life, my physical shape would deteriorate. I don't care about such stuff right now, so maybe by the time that will happen, my usual carelessness will gain the upper hand on any kind of rational thought. And I guess the fact that usually men have less weight problems in their youth than women helps them (us) develop this kind of attitude.
Disclaimer: Rereading my post, I think to some I might seem the kind of guy that thinks that all women are physically inferior to men. Honestly, I'm not. To give you an (additional) insight on my personality, two of my closest female friends also went to the same karate club as I did, and were better at it than me. I even fought them from time to time – after I got near their level – and can tell you that I felt very relieved when I managed to get an even score against them for my belt test ! And of course, I was the more concentrated person in those fights, since it was my exam. I wouldn't have even considered fighting them on the day of THEIR exam !!
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Noemon, I always was puzzled by that too. Wouldn't it be visible bragging rights? As in, "I've got a woman at home, ha ha!" I would've guessed guys without women might buy them just to establish themselves in the shopping aisle pecking order, but it doesn't seem to be so.
(Oh, thanks. Now the "whew" makes a lot more sense.)
22YOMH (or whomever): Do you ever forget your gender when speaking with a woman? Other guys? I don't mean "do you go all girly?" but rather "does your gender become irrelevant?" -- or is it like a switch that's always turned on? Is it a filter through which you see everything, or is it occasionally beside the point?
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Yeah CT, isn't that bizarre? I'd never thought of it, but yeah, you would think that single guys would be hanging out in that isle, wouldn't you? It'd be kind of the same principle as going out to a bar with female friends so that other women will see that you're the type of guy that women like, and be more receptive to you.
And if nothing else, it'd have to be a great place to meet women, right?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: 22YOMH (or whomever): Do you ever forget your gender when speaking with a woman? Other guys? I don't mean "do you go all girly?" but rather "does your gender become irrelevant?" -- or is it like a switch that's always turned on? Is it a filter through which you see everything, or is it occasionally beside the point?
CT, you can find a pretty good answer in Túrin's first post, over here . (Anyone, can i make a link to a specific post in a thread ?)
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote: Noemon, I always was puzzled by that too. Wouldn't it be visible bragging rights? As in, "I've got a woman at home, ha ha!" I would've guessed guys without women might buy them just to establish themselves in the shopping aisle pecking order, but it doesn't seem to be so.
If you're in the store with he thought that you might pick up a girl (I've heard it can happen), then you don't want to make them think you already have someone at home.
And if you're a single girl, would you really want to flirt with a guy while you decide whether tampon or pad is the better option.
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CT: I'll have to answer that later, got to go in archery class now, but I think that in order to forget your own gender you would also have to discard the interlocutor's gender. So could you please FURHTER clarify your question ? 'Cause I can see several interpretations: 1. Can a guy talk to a girl whom he's involved with and not think he's a man and she's a girl ? -> From my one time experience, I'd say "no". I could before getting into the relationship, but somehow my ability to do this dropped dead during it. Believe it or not, that's the main reason for our breaking up: too few time spent together, and even fewer of that time used to "really talk" to each other... That happened both ways, however. I hope we both learned something from this, though... 2. Can a guy talk to a girl he just met not regarding the discussion from the sexual point of vue ? -> Depends if she's beautiful Now really, if she's "generally attractive" (see above for definition), my natural process is to first look at her as a girl (therefore considering myself as a boy), and then talk to her as to anyone else. Sometimes, it does not succed, though If not "generally attractive", I tend to go directly to the "one genderless person to another" part of the action. But that might change over time. I found myself attracted to girls that at first I didn't consider being attractive.
To sum it up: yeah, we guys can talk to a girl without thinking to it as a "boy-to-girl" talk, but sometimes provocative outfits of the other party tend to play games with our concentration
Well, I seem to have answered it anyhow, but now I'm really late for my archery class...
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Have you seen what most men look like on the dance floor, Kat? Graceful isn't the first word that comes to mind
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Very few people look fabulous dancing. That's not the point - if YOU are the one dancing, then you don't have to watch other people. If everyone is, no one is watching each other.
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But I asked for an explanation. Are you saying it's a self-concious thing?