posted
The sad part I think is that we were closer than ever before until the OSC essay came out.
The last pages of the most recent major homosexuality thread had conservatives and liberals praising eachother and talking about how there might actually be a middle ground we could agree on. Ryan Hart even sent a letter to his representatives that the liberals agreed with.
Then after the bile-filled essay, we all had to shift into the two camps we started at. Thank you OSC.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
See, what has really got me on this notion that about leaving is that...after reading that essay, I felt very, very unwelcome. And if the host of this forum feels that way about the Left, then I'd rather take that as my cue to exit rather than overstay my welcome.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
So we're just supposed to ignore the ugly comments made in the essay? I'm for calling a spade a spade right there.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
SW, maybe there are lots and lots of other threads to complain about other Hatrackers?
I think Hatrack can take this. In spite of all, I don't think any has left yet. Although I'll bet we scared the crud out of a couple of potential newbies.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Maybe I'm better off for not having read more than a page or so of that seven-page thread at the top of the list . . .
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
kind of considered leaving too, but i don't want to. besides, it's nice how we can argue, have different opinions then pay virtual board games together cheerfully.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm too new as it is to consider leaving, but I am really sick of all these topics about exactly the same thing with exactly the same outcome, and I do see them tearing Hatrack up, thread by thread (pun intended, but not meant to be taken in a humorous way). One of the things that attracted me to Hatrack in the first place was that, despite its size, it was a fairly close-knit community. But if this bickering trail that we seem to be taking ever ends, I have a feeling it's going to end with half of the Hatrack population falling off a cliff.
I say we jump trails now, over to a side where we can all argue equally. How about food?
Posts: 2292 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Have I left? No. Will I? Probably not. Is the current kerfuffle adding a great deal of stress to my already stress-saturated life? Hoo boy, you betcha!
quote: The sad part I think is that we were closer than ever before until the OSC essay came out.
I strongly believe that any such appearance was illusory, and due to a number of the people with strong opinions (on both 'sides') having withdrawn from the debate. What is happening now, I think, is the illusion has been destroyed.
posted
SW, I think that "bile-filled" might be referring more to the tone than the content. I could be wrong, of course.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Anyway, the current debate, for lack of a more accurate word, has definitely been the cause of a little introspection on my part. Sometimes it surprises me how emotionally involved I get; normally I'm able to be rational about things. But I'm still here for now and for the forseeable future.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'm with Mack... I've been staying out of the political threads a great deal because there is one hell of a lot of personifying going on. Where I differ with Mack is that I don't feel very good about all the constant underlying assumptions that those of us on the right are rich people on power trips trying to take what little the poor have left while cramming fundamentalist Christianity down everyone's throat... and trust me they are there-- there was even an entire thread devoted to the notion that being conservative and christian was innately hypocritical. I hit the roof on that one and then just deleted my post in disgust. belle, bless her heart, tried to explain how offensive some of you were being but it did little good at all... at least as far as I can tell.
I also got some pretty condescending personal advice at one point, but that was my fault for putting things out there the way I did.
I was avoiding the board altogether until I saw that great, thought-provoking Ebert review and thought that a lot of those here might be better off for reading it.
<shrug>
what will happen to hatrack? I honestly haven't cared for a while.
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Whether or not it will hurt our community, I can't say.
I can say that all of this hubbub has certainly had me thinking for two days. I've discussed with people, read the whopping 10 pages of thread and stewed within my own self. It's been interesting.
So thank you dear Hatrack Family. And thank you OSC...because after all, you DO provide this place for us to discuss your articles and opinions until they're dust.
As long as we can be respectiful debaters, I think we'll be ok. The 10 page thread has been pretty respectful, albeit heated at points, but people haven't been thoughtless, mean, or deliberately offensive. MOST people that is. There are a few of us that like that actually, and it is those whom I hope will 'not survive' this debate. Everyone else is learning a lot I think.
We are definitely more than the sum of our parts. I truly believe that.
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
At the risk of sounding cheesy, the difference between this community and other online forums is the fact that we ARE a community. Not a forum. People know each other, people like and are friends with and even Love people they've met over here.
The reason that debates on issues as touchy as homosexual marriage are so divisive is BECAUSE we all generally like each other far too well. And respect each other. So when an issue arises that is that explosive, it does tear our community apart, much the same way a real-life community would be torn apart by similar scenarios.
For instance, I used to be actively involved in local community theatre, up until about the summer after my senior year of high school. I had performed with almost every theatre company in the area. But i noticed a penchant within the close-knit groups (which i once felt deeply attached to and at home with) for gossip. I really developed a strong distaste for being in the company of those who while not always Nasty about others, couldn't help but always, always talk about other people. Even if it was in a nice way, it was constant. "She's in this and she wore that and he said this and they did that..." I felt completely suffocated by the mentality and at times offended so I left. I have done only one show since with a bunch of people I didn't know and thankfully managed to avoid a lot of what turned me off of those acting communities in the first place.
My point is, this is like a home for some people. And at home you don't expect Daddy to question your beliefs and way of life in front of all your loved ones in a very public and explosive manner. And I'm fully aware that this is a forum exclusively for discussion of such things, but the point is some people have taken that to the next level. I know i have, and it's mostly my fault for getting that emotionally involved. But at the same time, that air of "home away from home" has certainly been cultivated here, and by more than just a few members. The problem is there's no middle ground on that, because there will always be those who say "this is like my family" and those who say "this is a great intellectual place where people can express their ideas freely"
So we're always going to have these hurtful, awful fights.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Did you really see these threads as 'fights' Leonide? I'm curious. I don't post in many of the heated threads because of time etc, but I try to follow them. It could be that because I'm not posting they don't seem to have the same mean spirit that a 'fight' would.
But then, I guess that depends on how you define the word 'fight.' Interesting...
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I was just peeking at a few of your profiles, and most of you are highly-educated professionals. In a general sense, your opinions are already as polarized as they're going to get. Your level of education and respect for the knowledge of other members is what keeps you together.
And the one thing that sets you apart from most other online groups is the fact that you all read. (OSC says that most folks don't)
Unfortunately, you don't represent a very good cross-section of society. So the harmony you've found here is not very likely to extend beyond the bounds of your cyber community.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I agree with Leonide on this one. This IS a community, we respond like a community in more ways than one.
Here in SLC, I work for the Deseret Morning News. I think it's safe to say that there isn't much love lost between us and the Salt Lake Tribune, and maybe even a few of the TV outlets. On most issues, we just don't see eye to eye. In fact, we're in direct competition for our very lives.
Yet when three D-news employees were critically injured in a horrific crash, the media community sprang into action. Since the three people injured were photographers, The Trib offered to not only supply photos of the crash, but to staff the rest of our photography assignments for the rest of the day.
The Tribune has actively been there for us, helping us to cope with this tough time we've be going through. And this spirit of community has permeated everywhere I've gone. People genuinely care when something tragic happens.
I think that deep down, most of us feel this way towards each side of the debate.
I love KarlEd, and hate the fact that this struggle has caused him pain. I would do anything to help ease it, even though I've never known the man and have only a few things in common with him. Right now, that doesn't matter.
And the same goes for mack, and Leonide and synthesia and all those who I can see are suffering from this.
A few days ago I blew up at Lalo and swore I'd never come back, for like the fiftieth time. And despite the fact that I'm know people don't agree with my views on several issues, the love has been there despite it.
Like Leonide said, we'll have fights that make us hate each other, but in the end, I think we'd go to war for each other if we needed to.
Anyway, I again find myself in awe of what we have created here at Hatrack. In some ways, we've outgrown what we were programmed for. We think, we fight but we also love and help.
Posts: 1800 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
Huh. I've always thought Hatrack was fairly well-rounded in regards to representing a good cross-section of society.
I'm with Syn, here; I haven't posted much on the "controversial" threads, but I do try to follow them, and when I DO post, I try my best to phrase my thoughts in ways that are NOT meant to offend.
I've always loved Hatrack, because even when we discuss things that we are passionate about, we have the ability to remain civil and treat each other with respect (for the most part, anyway). We're able to CONSIDER other viewpoints than our own.
So, yes, I think Hatrack will "survive". It might be painful at times, but we'll all grow and learn, and probably be stronger for it.
And I, for one, REALLY REALLY hope people like Mack don't leave.
posted
I don't think I've ever been very close to leaving for anything going on on Hatrack itself. I've left for a time because of Life In General.
I guess the closest I have ever gotten was the time Paul called me out for sexism. I never did answer his questions...which in retrospect I feel bad about. It got too personal, and I couldn't answer him reasonably, then when it didn't feel so personal I didn't care about the argument anymore. Paul, if you ever want to resume that discussion, let me know.
I would feel badly if someone I liked chose to leave, but it's their choice. Very few people around here actually get kicked out. I am always a little sad when someone leaves.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I've been here at Hatrack longer than all but a handful of people, nowadays, and I'd like to think I know the regulars here pretty well. I don't think the issue of gay marriage itself -- or ANY single issue, for that matter -- could tear this place apart. What CAN tear it apart, and what I've tried to fight against since my very first days here (and which I fought against perhaps most loudly in the days of Baldar), is the idea that the people who don't share your opinions are implacable enemies determined to tear down your way of life.
I specifically entitled my post to OSC a "white flag" not because I was surrendering, but because I wanted to remind him -- pointedly, but hopefully politely -- that I come in peace. I don't agree with him, and was angered by the hostility in his tone, but that doesn't make him an OPPONENT, or an enemy, or someone who must be defeated and discredited in order for me to live my life in contentment.
If people ever DO start dividing into camps with this view -- and there have always been a few on Hatrack who have always believed this already, but they're thankfully in the minority -- then there's no possibility of a larger community. It's my hope that we're able to avoid this.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I feel the same. I want peace. I want.. people to be more compassion. I don't want name calling and bitterness. I want a better world.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I want to give people who disagree with me enormous and debilitating wedgies. Does that make me a bad person?
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Of course the only way to make things better is if we all argue, wear each other down, sharpen each other until things get better.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I got done typing my above post (laughing to myself all the while), and realized that I knew for a FACT that Pat would chuckle too, and not take any offense.
There should be a new rule. People with three digit member numbers can say anything they want about each other. If you've survived around here that long, you probably don't have a thin skin, and are accustomed to the weirdness of all the other long timers.
And people with two digit member numbers can say anything they want about anyone. It's sort of like having a license to kill.
Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
To answer the immediate question: I would hope that people around here are intelligent enough and tolerant enough to accept that reasonable people can disagree.
Then again, I've taken to staying out of threads that I think will probably make me angry. That means pretty much all of the threads centering on issues concerning homosexuality. Things sometimes get ugly in those threads, and I don't come here to get into arguments.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote: At the risk of sounding cheesy, the difference between this community and other online forums is the fact that we ARE a community. Not a forum. People know each other, people like and are friends with and even Love people they've met over here.
I completely agree Leonide.
And I don't think Hatrack will be torn apart.
I've developed my own personal strategy for dealing with the uber-long controversial threads. If I feel strongly about it, I post early on. Then I reply to what other people take to issue with my views, to questions etc.
But I don't tend to jump into the other fights. Must be pretty annoying for the people who would like others jumping in, but it's a way that I can feel I participated without getting over-involved, or over-emotional.
And at least I don't post at the end of a 7 page thread prefacing my post with "Well I haven't read any of this, but read my post anways..."
Edit: Plus, it helps that no-one will take me seriously anyway because of my atrocious spelling. And tense.
posted
If there's anything on which Hatrack can agree, surely it's that such people should be sentenced to the Hug Thread. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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