posted
Technically, I proposed BEFORE our first date.
But I'm counting the approximately 3 hours/night on the phone leading up to last Thursday as "dating."
And at least a couple of thousand of my posts have been made with Dana in mind, at least at some level. So those count as maybe half a date. (which would be like a raisin)
posted
But you left out the part where you trust each other and both of you have the same innocent intentions.
I wouldn't suggest that you randomly make out with somebody like you randomly eat a cheesecake. Of course if you did I wouldn't be judging you for it, either.
---
Do you feel the same way about dancing? Holding hands? Hugging? At what point are you crossing the cheescake line, anyway? Is it not just cheesecake to go out with a 6'2 hunk just for the view?
But I digress.
The question I asked presupposed that you and a friend who love each other but were not IN LOVE with each other could come to a trustworthy decision to enjoy one another outside of a we-might-eventually-get-married context. I can understand why that scenario is difficult for you to comprehend.
Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Come to think of it, while he didn't formally propose, Tzadik did essentially ask me to marry him (in the "I really think we should get married is that ok with you" sense) shortly BEFORE our second date. Then we spent the next three months figuring out a way to actually get engaged (no dating for interns the first year, ie me). Of course what you must understand is that our first date was in June (during which I was instructed to and did explain that we couldn't date but could get to know each other in a semi-serious but non-dating relationship), and our second was the end of December, by special dispensation for my birthday. By which time we were beyond serious, but still not dating. Hence the "how does one get engaged when not actually dating" headache that resolved in compromise (structured dating?) and eventual engagement. Love conquers all. Or, less melodramatically, love is willing to wait a few months to keep everyone happy.
Since I'm in the thread, let me gratuitously note that I have in fact never had a kiss that wasn't good. I attribute that, however, to only having kissed the one person (um, one guess who), and only having the first after having been head-over-heels for some time. *blush*
posted
You know what though, there *is* such a thing as a good and a bad kiss. When I was 17 I'd finally gotten myself out of my house and moved halfway across the country to work for the summer before school started. While on the job I was told in no uncertain terms that there would be "relations" between myself and a higher up or I would be fired.
Clearly, the emotions behind it were not happy ones. But, at the same time, as a technician she knew what she was doing. Now that I'm sitting here trying to describe what it is I don't know that I could. I suppose you just have to experience a really good/really bad kiss to really get what I mean. That, or just take my word for it.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
What about the dishonest with manifestations of love thing?
It's the form and not the substance. It creates a world where a kiss is judged by somone's skill level. Even in a situation where you agree to have the same opinion, it means you have to agree that it doesn't mean what it would mean with someone else.
---
And incidently, yes, I feel bad for and sort of regret continuing to hang out with someone who liked me just because I thought he was pretty.
posted
Look at it like this, Kat. Have you ever had a really good massage? Were you in love with the person? Even if you haven't I'm sure you've heard of people who have had massages that they described as "fantastic" or "out-of-this-world" even though there was no romantic interest.
Now, if you get a massage from someone you love, odds are you're going to like. It's a connection from someone you're in love with. The emotional connection means more than the physical one. But that doesn't mean that the person you love gives a better massage than the other person. There are things your loved one could do that would make you enjoy it more or less on a physical level.
Does that make any sense?
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hence the difference in qualities I so painstakingly pointed out earlier.
See, you are assuming that any kiss not intended to build a bridge toward holy matriomony and station-wagon-with-kids is automatically "dishonest". That's just not true. Well, it may be true for you.
Platonic love can be intimate too. It's just different. To be sure most bad kisses I've had were with people I was not in love with, though, so you are right that your level of emotional committment has an effect on your enjoyment of a kiss. But the mechanics of kissing are something you can be good at or bad at, just like dancing, baseball, singing, baking cheesecake or writing a letter.
Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Teshi, if us two kissed, I'd be able to tell you that your the best kisser I've ever kissed. Doesn't that brighten your day? Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Fine. Bob and JK, start a thread explaing the mechanics of a really good technical kiss.
Added: JK, do not assign motives to me. There is a world of difference between only kissing someone you love and want to be close to and planning on a station wagon with everyone you kiss. If you're going off a stereotype of the typical Mormon girl, you're wrong.
posted
I apologize if I mischaracterized your apparent criteria for a "good kiss". It did SEEM very much as if you thought any kiss not intended for eternal love was "dishonest". Particularly because you couldn't even IMAGINE the situation I was presenting to you.
Added: I mean, even now that you've retracted your supposition that all non-in-love-kisses are "dishonest", you still have to call it a "technical kiss". Like little league isn't really baseball and playing a CD isn't really playing music. That's not true either. You can totally enjoy a kiss with someone you're not in love with, especially if you're comfortable enough with the consenting party that there is no concern about setting--or breaking--limits.
Or perhaps it was the wording of the motives with which you are really taking issue. Forgive me for being crass. I'm an old fogey like that sometimes.
Or maybe I'm just hurt that you wouldn't let me kiss you, despite the fact that neither of us are really interested and it wouldn't cost either of us anything. Trust me, you're missing out.
posted
Zotto, I'm confident the bottle never told me I was a bad kisser, just like I'm confident Teshi would be a better kisser than the bottle. Posts: 9754 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
The last time I kissed a girl i was 3 her name was Erica, under the monkey bars when i was in preschool(HeadStart). Oddly a week after that she moved away. Looking back i have wondered if thats why i havent kissed a girl since. or if it was her slaping me for kissing her.
posted
My last first kiss was also my first first kiss. Yes, that means what you think it means. I was saving it for someone special. Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can't stand being casually hugged by guy friends who aren't my boyfriend. I think kissing someone I didn't like would be awful.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I want more first kiss stories. If I tell one, will more people start telling them again? Please?
This was not my last first kiss. I'm not ready to tell that story yet. It was, um, my third to last.
There was a guy at work who I had had a crush on for what seemed like ages. He was cute and intense and played harmonica and sang in a local band, and sometimes when he had people on hold on the phone to transfer them to another department he would sing while he was waiting for someone to come on the line. It was like music was constantly spilling out of him, and I sat close enough so I could hear him, and I loved listening.
One day he asked me out, traditional first date, dinner and a movie. We went to dinner and talked and talked, and were just connecting so well... we finally realized we were going to miss the movie start time, and he suggested going to Nye's instead. Nye's is a local bar and restaurant that has a polka room (smokey, icky) and a nicer main room, that has a piano bar off to the side. I had never been before.
The piano bar was full, so we had a drink in the polka lounge, but it was loud and unpleasant, so we went back out and someone was just leaving right up against the piano, and we snagged their seats. The way it worked was there were books with lyrics to songs the pianist knew, and you could request to sing a song or have her sing one. You wrote it down on a scrap of paper and turned it in, and she called you off in turn and a microphone got passed around. The pianist was a wonderful woman in her 80s who had been doing it forever, I believe she's retired now, and was a real showman.
I can't sing. I love music, I memorize lyrics easily and sing along with gusto when I'm by myself or with close family, most of whom also can't sing. I will not sing in public, especially on a first date, and especially on a microphone with accompaniment and people listening.
He, of course, sang, and sang wonderfully. People were coming up and making requests for him to sing other songs, and he was turning them down, because he didn't want it to turn into a performance, he wanted to spend time talking with me, and just sing a little.
Then he asked me to sing for him. I stuttered, I protested, I said I couldn't sing. He said it didn't matter, and to pick out a song I liked and sing to him.
I really, really, liked this guy. There was no way I was going to sing.
We had been holding hands a little, touching each other on the arm every now and then, but that was it. He grabbed my hand and said "I can't believe you won't sing for me!" and I leaned over and kissed him. Yes, I wanted to kiss him, I had wanted to kiss him all night. But I kissed him then to distract him from the singing thing.
And it worked! Beautifully! I broke the kiss and he had just a look of wonder on his face... he said later that he couldn't believe we were really out together, and that I had really kissed him. And we spent the rest of the evening laughing and talking and staring at each other, and it was wonderful. And he didn't ask me to sing again, thank goodness, 'cause I don't know what else I could have done to distract him again.
It was the best first date I've ever had.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Annie was right, our first kiss wasn't ridiculously romantic, but maybe that's because we'd already kissed a very large number of times in other ways (as anyone on sakeriver can tell you ). It was like a non-first, first kiss in that it just seemed natural. I guess the whole weekend was like that, techincally the first time we met, but it was like we'd been together for ages.
posted
Like JohnKeats, I'd like to point out that it's perfectly possible to enjoy kissing someone you have no intention of marrying. It is, in fact, occasionally fun. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would like to third that and just mention the obvious that Mormons, especially Mormon girls, are really weird and have a lot of cooties.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Wouldn't it be taboo for a Mormon girl to propose, anyway? Just wondering. If that's true maybe they ask on the second date because they are in such a hurry to get married that they don't want to waste the lord's time on other women? Or maybe that's true in either case. I think it would be difficult to date somebody if you believed any affectionate actions taking place in the context of the courtship were retroactively dishonest when you didn't eventually get married.
This is why I kiss everyone and everything every chance I get. I'm all about spreading the love. Though sometimes I feel like butter, stretched over too much bread...
posted
Figure I'll stick up for my sie by posting my last first kiss.
A friend had come into town for a weekend with some of his friends and we took them out to see the city. After walking around for a day seeing the sights and such, we hit the night scene. This eventually ended up with us going back to the car at around 3 am in the morning, with all of us except the DD being somewhat tipsy. The car was parked in a garage under a big old fountain (sort of like the one in Chicago in the beginning of Married With Children). So, the night was pretty warm and the one girl (a spunky but smoky redhead that I had my eye on) said we should go play in the fountain. My friend and I, being always up for such michief promptly stripped down into boxers and jumped in. Some of the girls (hey, he came up with all girls because that's the kind of friend he is) followed suit, including the stipping down to their skivies. Long story short, the redhead and I went off together round a corner when it was time to dry each other off and a extremely enjoyable make-out session followed. Both of us knew what we wanted - a no-commitment round of tonsil hockey - going in and that's what we got. It was fun and a great cap to the evening. If I see the girl again, like if she comes with my friend to visit or I go down there, we might do it again.
I've bounced between doing this and having more meaningful relationships for most of my adult life and I'll tell you, there's a place for both. Kisses when you really care about someone share a lot of the same charateristics with kissing someone you're just attracted to, but they add another dimension as well. They are more special, not because of the physical actions involved, but because of the emotions behind the actions.
What's special about me isn't really my body. Other people have pretty much the same. It's who I am, my spirit and my soul that is special. This is what I reserve for people that I really care about. You may as well say that I shouldn't have intellectual discussions with people that I'm not intending to marry either. That's about the same level I put these things on.
posted
I don't think you can be retroactively dishonest. I mean, even if you don't end up marrying someone, if you meant it when you kissed them, simply because you didn't marry them later doesn't mean you didn't mean it at the time.
I think Annie is referring to going for something that the other person could misconstrue when you KNOW you don't want the same thing - when you give the manifestations of love without any feeling behind it.
posted
I would think actions taken without any feeling would not count as manifestations of love. But then it's a lot more possible for me to find myself in a situation where I can be affectionate without being effectionate, if you know what I mean.
quote:This is why I kiss everyone and everything every chance I get. I'm all about spreading the love. Though sometimes I feel like butter, stretched over too much bread...
You're right... I spread cheer everywhere I go, too. Christmas cheer, Hannukuh cheer, loveboat cheer. And I spread cheesnips all around the country every chance I get. I hope one day to grow a real live cheesenip tree.
Posts: 4350 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Okay, you're saying that you have more freedom to be physically affectionate because not everyone you date proposes five days after kissing you.
Okay, that's probably true. The whole "marry the first person you kiss" works out well sometimes, but if you are determined to stick to it, you'd better hope and pray your judgement that day is correct.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Or, less melodramatically, love is willing to wait a few months to keep everyone happy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
