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Author Topic: Homosexuality is biological
Telperion the Silver
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Hello all. I just read an article by our beloved OSC that was published in Civilization Watch on Feb. 15th dealing with gay marriage and the like. Before I go into my criticism let me first say how I totally respect OSC. OSC is currently my favorite modern American author, and very much a role model for me in how he combines history and politics into understanding and caring about/for the survival of Civilization. As a non-party member myself, or as I like to say a "romantic-pragmatic-centrist" leaning heavily to the libertarian ideas, I love Card's balanced and educated stories, articles, and insights; how he is a Democrat, but very conservative at the same time. I love that balance. Not that being a Democrat automatically makes you liberal and not that being a Republican makes you conservative, mind you.

However this is the first major point/opinion of OSC that I cannot agree on. Not for the fact that he argues against gay marriage, which I don't totally agree with but can see his compelling arguments for Civilization's sake. The insulting thing is how he says that homosexuality is a choice! I am a gay man and have known what I was since I can remember. (Not that toddlers are very sexual, but in hindsight I can see how I was more attracted to the male form than the female even at that age.) I never even knew that the word homosexual existed till high school and always thought I would fall in love with a girl and have kids. Well… I waited and waited and all of a sudden I started noticing the guys and then… oh no! Something's amiss! It was NOT a choice for me. It was NOT a choice for any of my gay/bi/lesbian friends and acquaintances.

Card, while not completely denying that there is scientific evidence for sexuality being biological, is coming close to it. He also talks about some mysterious force called "The Left" (I hear that it is related to "The Right") that has a propaganda mill that will corrupt the masses. Well… that's why I don't watch TV anymore. It is for the most part a cultural wasteland that has no real point but to help kill time and once in a blue moon entertain. As Card said, the best way to keep yourself from being hoodwinked or corrupted is to educate yourself…especially in history.

He says that homosexual being born that way is a "myth". That is so untrue. Not only from my own life, but from scientific studies. At college we learned from the professors that there was a physical difference in the inner brain between heterosexual males and homosexual males, as one example.

Also sexuality is a basic life function. Just like breathing or hunger or thirst. That is hardwired into your system. It is NOT something you choose. Unless you are bisexual and then you DO have a choice. Lucky them.

Card, it seems, does not recognize the face that bisexuals exist, people who have the biological option to be attracted to either sex. There are also different percentages to which gender that bisexuals are attracted to. Some are 50/50. Some are 20/80. Some are 60/40. Every bisexual is different. And in my own experience bisexuals outnumber gay people. It appears that Card sees bisexuals as proof that homosexuals are made. I must disagree with his analysis.

Homosexuality, while probably Nature's way of controlling the population explosion, does not forbid us gay folk from having children. Adoption of course is a big option and, if like me, you were raised to honor and respect your bloodline you can find a birth-mother to help create your offspring. But I digress…

So that's my point. Sexual orientation is NOT chosen. You are gay, straight, or bi.

It's hard expanding, changing, and/or teaching people's minds… I can come at this by pleading to be heard, but then I will be seen as weak. I can come at this demanding and with force, but people will see me as a tyrant. So I can only state my points. Thanks for reading. Take care!

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katharina
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Oh, OSC wrote an article on this?
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BannaOj
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Welcome... you might be interested in doing a search through the Hatrack search function and seeing the pages and pages of discussion that that article created. Both sides were argued to death and at the moment it is pretty much a dead horse around here, because we love our fellow Hatrackers, and are sick of arguing about it, and the subsequent hurt feelings.

AJ

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Dan_raven
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Templ, you are in for a rough time.

This issue, and OSC's article in particular, have been overly debated here for a few weeks. It has left a lot of very friendly people feeling tired and sore.

Worse, some rude and petty people have been logging on Trolls, new names for themselves, just to stir up political debate and make people get mad.

What pathetic pleasure these trolls recieve is beyond me. I guess they think the power to destroy is a power they posess.

Anyway, I am afraid that many will label you a troll immediately, since your first post that I've seen is one guaranteed to start a fight.

I hope you are not, and that you stay to give your voice to this community.

However, if you are a troll, and to the trolls that are out there, there are only three things this community frowns upon--rudeness, pettiness, and pitiable behavior. Trolling (not Homosexuality) is all of those.

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Telperion the Silver
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Thank you for the welcome. [Smile]
The trick to avoid hurt feelings is to attack the subject, not the person. I will in the future do the searches to avoid conflict.

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ClaudiaTherese
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kat! [Wink]

Telperion, this has been discussed pretty extensively here already. (See, eg, Lalo's thread as well as many discussions about homosexuality in general.) You'll find that there is a pretty complete spectrum of beliefs and opinions about this here, just as for most topics. Sometimes members here get a little miffy if newcomers don't bother looking for earlier discussions, but kat's just pulling your leg.

( [Kiss] Kat thinks I'm classy. [Big Grin] )

Welcome to Hatrack!

[Edit: too late as always. [Roll Eyes] But classy! ]

[ March 15, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

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katharina
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I looked at his thread on the other side, and I believe him to be sincere. However, yeah - do a search for "homosexuality" for the last month and find the other threads. It has been a hot topic, and we're a little battle-sore.

Welcome to Hatrack!

CT: [Razz] I thought it was fairly brave to start with this topic, then it occured to me that it's only brave if you know the history of the controversey.

[ March 15, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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BannaOj
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Teleperion, I love your screen name.

AJ

[ March 15, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]

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Xaposert
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I don't see how anyone can claim homosexuality is a choice. This just seems to be factually false.

However, I think Card's point was not that homosexuality itself was a choice, but rather that choosing to engage in homosexual activities to fulfill those desires is a choice.

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ClaudiaTherese
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Yeah, well, kat, you know ... I'm classy. *preens

[Big Grin]

He seems well-intentioned. Telperion, I hope you stick around.

(Did I mention that I was classy? [Wink] )

I'll bump the latest "FAQ for Newcomers" for you.

[ March 15, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

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Telperion the Silver
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Hehe... never would have imagined such quick replies! I should have known better since I belong to a couple similar message boards. Much apologies.

Thanks for the compliment BannaOJ! Long live Tolkien!

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Synesthesia
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Hi to you [Smile]
You do indeed make interesting points involving this article. Welcome.

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jeniwren
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Welcome to Hatrack Telperion. [Smile]
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ClaudiaTherese
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Telperion, that giant sucking noise you hear is you being drawn into the vortextual maw that is Hatrack.

Actually, it's more like Callahan's, if you know the reference. There are people here all day, every day, and if you aren't careful, you'll never leave. (Other forums? What other forums?)

Hmmm. Maybe more like the Hotel California. [Angst] [Wink]

[ March 15, 2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

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BannaOj
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Teleperion, you might enjoy Uruk-Haiku We have had an LotR Wenches Tavern in the past but things have been quiet since Wench Con in January.

Feel free to choose an LotR actor and argue about his (or her) sexiness to your hearts content.

My personal favorite is Pippin/Billy Boyd

<grin>

AJ

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pooka
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quote:
I don't see how anyone can claim homosexuality is a choice. This just seems to be factually false.

Wow, a position point that Tres/Xap can't argue just for the heck of it? What is the world coming to? [Wink]
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zgator
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<checks calender>

I thought we had this week blocked off for abortion debate. [Razz]

Welcome Teleperion

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pooka
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Yes, but that's already been pre-empted by the Spanish attack and election.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Hook, line, and sinker.

Well done, AJ. [Hail] I think you've landed him.

[Mind you, Uruk-Haiku counts as pulling out the big guns, but he does seem to be a worthy catch.]

[ March 15, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

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zgator
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Tres, I've always thought "choice" was a bad word for it. I can't think how anyone would think that it is a choice, but that is not the same as saying it is genetic.
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pooka
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Though to be fair, Tel, I didn't think Card's actual argument on the cause of homosexuality in "Humpty Dumpty Logic" made a lot of sense. Though I had trauma and abuse as a kid, and I'm 60/40, as you say. So I don't know where that puts me.

P.S. I was almost going to dobie this "homosexuality is metaphysical" because in a way, the fact that homosexuality involves biology is fairly obvious...

[ March 15, 2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]

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ClaudiaTherese
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(I'm actually very excited at being here for the beginning of Telperion's stay. Can I just claim dibs on first mention in his Landmark Post? 'Cause, you know ... I'm so classy. [Big Grin] )
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Trogdor the Burninator
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Bigots.
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pooka
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Ribbets.
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ClaudiaTherese
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Rivets.
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Trogdor the Burninator
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**hiccups**
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Telperion the Silver
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[Blushing] I actually WAS wondering what that giant sucking noise was... [Wink] Feel the love!
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ClaudiaTherese
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[Smile]
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Dan_raven
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mmmmm Ribletts
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Telperion the Silver
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Mmmmmm... Pipin...
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Amka
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quote:
He says that homosexual being born that way is a "myth". That is so untrue. Not only from my own life, but from scientific studies. At college we learned from the professors that there was a physical difference in the inner brain between heterosexual males and homosexual males, as one example.

There may very well be a lot of biological factors, but this particular study had several flaws:

1. Was the difference in brain structure the cause or the result of the homosexual behavior?

2. And if these are the Levay studies, the most condemning flaw is that all of the homosexual men had died of AIDS.

The twin studies support a possible biological prediliction, but rather than supporting the biological imperitive idea, they actually refute it: only %50 of identical twins of homosexual individuals were also homosexual. The problem is that these twins also grew up in similar environments, so one cannot rule out environmental factors. Fraternal twins come in at %24 and biological brothers come in at %11. Interestingly enough, the adopted, non-biological brother of a homosexual will have the same likelyhood as the biological brother: %11. This is significantly higher than the norm: %1-%4 of the population being homosexual.

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Amka
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Oh yes and, welcome to the forum [Smile]

Yes, it has been debated extensively. But I like things biological. The causes of homosexuality itself is interesting to me. We shouldn't be afraid of what actually is, for that allows us to understand ourselves better. The scope of human experience is gloriously diverse.

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romanylass
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Welcome, Telperion!

BTW, I agrre with you. [Smile]

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Telperion the Silver
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Yah, my feeling is that homosexuality/bisexuality is a recessive trait (or whatever the proper term to call it) that all humans carry. It only takes certain forces or combinations to make them express themselves.

Which is not the same thing as saying homosexuality created by how you are raised. I actually disagree with the belief that gays are created by abuse or whatever. I came from a good liberal Catholic family (yes, there is such a thing) with no abuse...and vola! Gay boy popped out.

Ah.. who knows. As long as people don't demand I change something that feels as natural to me as breathing I don't care what they believe. [Smile] When I choose to mate for life I don't really need the government's or church's approval. We only need each other's.

BUT... it does become much more difficult if my partner and I decide to have children...or dying... or.. well... I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

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pooka
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Another problem I saw with the twin study is that twin studies in the past failed to predict that OCD is genetic, when at least one pathway has been found that is genetic.

P.S. If you are gay (or do you mean someone else?) I am somewhat more willing to listen to you. A lot of the people here have the attitude "it has to be genetic 'cause I know I could never be turned gay."

By the way, while having some bi tendencies, I am married and hope to remain so permanently. Just for clarity's sake.

[ March 15, 2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]

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Telperion the Silver
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Pooka... asking me? Yes, I am gay. [Big Grin]
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pooka
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Well welcome, Telperion. Sorry we are so weird about new faces right now.
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BrianM
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Until modern biology can show exactly what part of us (be it genes, individual codons or perhaps malfunctory ribosomes) enacts this sexual deviance, it is safer to assume homosexuality is a choice, especially given our culture's current tendency to victimize themselves biologically. "Oh, I can't do anything about it, it's fixed in my biological nature." If you believe that homosexuality being biologically rooted is anywhere near scientifically proven then you are woefully unaware of the actual scientific inquiry into this and you probably have a political agenda for saying such things. Even if biology controls specific aspects of behavior like sexual deviance, which it probably doesn't, there is not a strong enough case to show that it causes homosexuality besides coincidental evidence at best (ie: the whole fallacy of "it's in the animal world so it must be biological."

[ March 15, 2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: BrianM ]

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Ela
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Hi, Telperion! Welcome to Hatrack! [Big Grin]

Just for the record, I agree with your views on homosexuality. As others have already told you, it has been a hotly debated issue around here. [Smile]

Hope you'll stick around and enjoy the forum.

[Wave]

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Bokonon
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Thanks Brian, good to know that I'm just being stupid. I never figured that it would be safer to believe homosexuality is one or the other.

I'm sure Slash will find that fact reassuring [Smile]

-Bok

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John L
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Why does it have to be all one or the other? As far as science has found, it's most likely a mix of both biology and choice. I mean, I can understand the fervent arguing that it is strictly choice, because then those who are against it can just claim direct, intentional antisocial behavior (and, in fact, usually do). However, trying to make it out to be totally biological is stupid. People are born with different levels of predilections as far as their preferences, behaviors, temperments, and cognitive capability. However, we can add to or take away from any of them depending on how we live our lives. There are some things we never get rid of, but can consciously decide to be contrary to. The biological argument is pretty stupid from both sides. And I say this knowing full well that if the biological argument were used by me, I could more emphatically argue against those who wish to deny gays their rights. After all, it wouldn't just be a bigoted outlook toward the lifestyle of homosexuality any more, it'd be flat-out racism.
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fugu13
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Uh, BrianM, every single study so far cited shows unambuguously that the likelihood of turning out homosexual is influenced by genetics.

Whether or not its still ultimately a choice is more up in the air (for instance, is it a choice for someone who has a genetic disorder that makes walking very painful to walk? In one sense, yes, but that doesn't mean we should force them to walk instead of use a wheelchair). But it is definitely not true that 'Even if biology controls specific aspects of behavior like sexual deviance, which it probably doesn't, there is not a strong enough case to show that it causes homosexuality besides coincidental evidence at best (ie: the whole fallacy of "it's in the animal world so it must be biological.'

You are the one showing your ignorance, not those you say are.

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John L
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I'm curious: under the hypothetical situation that modern science figures out just how much the biological elements influence someone's homosexuality, and it turns out to be more than originally thought probable, how would those who are religiously motivated react towards their position? Would they change their outlook on it? Would religious institutions change their dogma on it?
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Telperion the Silver
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One way I put it to people who have a hard time imagining my situation as a gay male, is for them to think about their own sex drive. So I talk to a guy and ask them if they choose liking women, or visa versa for the ladies.

I think it comes down the the fundamental diffuculty in understanding the alien. If you can't experiance it then it cannot be... or at least cannot be natural.

Humans have always been afraid of the unknown. It's a survival trait to pay attention and be wary of different things. Such as loud noises, or the dark, or fights, etc, etc...

Since we operate best when we have experiance, the unknown might kill us so we are programed to be extra careful and attentive to it.

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The Thnikkaman
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Here comes the Thnikkaman...
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BrianM
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Fugu if I am showing my ignorance then point me to the study that shows exactly what part of the genetic code carries the information for homosexuality. Until you can do that, saying it's "probably genetic" is not good enough due to the consequences our victimizing culture will incur due to its tendency to rush toward biological victimization. I am not showing ignorance, rather, you are showing a haste for assumption that is dangerous to safe medical, scientific and social progress.
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Synesthesia
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[Laugh] Thnikkaman...

My theory on homosexuality is it's a variation. It's not caused by mothers that are over affectionate towards their sons or abuse. It has nothing to do with masculinity or feminity.
It's a variation. Human behaviour is on a spectrum, gender, sexuality, it's not that different.
If it's genetic or not, it really doesn't matter. It exists and now the larger society needs to shift for it.

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BrianM
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Here is some information on the problems with many of the studies that have attempted to claim the biological link.

http://www.lafalce.com/library/family/2000-06_pp_hs-cause.shtml

This site discusses the flaws and fallacies involved with the hypothalamus, twins, x chromosomes, and hormones studies/approaches.

quote:
The first frenzy of this trend erupted in 1991 when Simon LeVay published a study in Science. His study noted a difference in a brain structure called the hypothalamus when evaluating homosexual and heterosexual men. LeVay found that in the specimens he studied, the hypothalamus was generally larger in heterosexual men than in homosexual men. Therefore he concluded that these findings "suggest that sexual orientation has a biologic substrate."6
however...
quote:
While LeVay’s study hit the media with a splash that rippled from coast to coast, it was anything but conclusive. An analysis of the study and its methodology reveals some serious flaws. The first problem, which LeVay himself readily admits, is that all 19 of his homosexual subjects had died of complications associated with AIDS. Therefore the difference in the hypothalamus might well be attributed to the AIDS rather than homosexuality. LeVay attempted to compensate for the weakness by including a few heterosexuals who died of AIDS complications in the heterosexual sample. However, LeVay did not know for sure whether all subjects in his heterosexual sample were indeed heterosexual; all of these subjects were simply "presumed heterosexual."

Moreover, Dr. William Byne argued in Scientific American that "[LeVay’s] inclusion of a few brains from heterosexual men with AIDS did not adequately address the fact that at the time of death virtually all men with AIDS have decreased testosterone levels as the result of the disease itself or the side effects of particular treatments. ¼ Thus it is possible that the effects on the size of the INAH3 [hypothalamus] that he attributed to sexual orientation were actually caused by the hormonal abnormalities associated with AIDS."7

Another weakness of LeVay’s study is that even in his sample there were "exceptions"—that is, there were some homosexuals who had larger hypothalamus structures than some of the heterosexuals examined. Even LeVay admits that these exceptions "hint at the possibility that sexual orientation, although an important variable, may not be the sole determinant of INAH3 [hypothalamus] size."8

LeVay is an open homosexual, and his interview with Newsweek suggests he had an agenda from the outset. LeVay lost his gay partner to AIDS, an event that made him re-evaluate what he was doing with his life. As a result, he took on this project. LeVay believes America must be convinced that homosexuality is determined biologically. "It’s important to educate society," he told Newsweek. "I think this issue does affect religious and legal attitudes."9

Since LeVay released his study, other researchers have found that brain structures can change as a result of life experiences. In 1997, University of California at Berkeley psychologist Marc Breedlove released a study that showed that sexual activities of rats actually structurally changed aspects of the brain at the base of the spinal chord. "These findings give us proof for what we theoretically know to be the case—that sexual experience can alter the structure of the brain, just as genes can alter it," Breedlove commented. "You can’t assume that because you find a structural difference in the brain, that it was caused by genes. You don’t know how it got there."10

Breedlove is not an activist out to prove homosexuality is not biological. In fact, he does believe a genetic component exists somewhere, but he, unlike LeVay, seems willing to take a more honest approach to research.


On the x chromosome approach
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In 1993 a group of medical researchers at the National Cancer Institute, led by Dr. Dean H. Hamer, released a study that linked homosexuality to the X chromosome. While the study won a great deal of media attention, it also offered little proof of a biological link to homosexuality.
However
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Hamer’s results are often misunderstood. Many believe that the study found an identical sequence (Xq28) on the X chromosome of all homosexual brothers. In reality, what it found was matching sequences in each set of brothers who were both homosexual. Dr. Byne argues that in order to prove anything by this study, Hamer would have had to examine the Xq28 sequence of gay men’s heterosexual brothers. Hamer insisted that such an inclusion would have confounded his study. Byne responded, "In other words, inclusion of heterosexual brothers might have revealed that something other than genes is responsible for sexual orientation."11

Hamer’s motives are also questionable. Although his research is sponsored by the National Cancer Institute, his work has had little to do with cancer. This study alone took $419,000 of the institute’s taxpayer-backed funds, according to The Washington Times.12

One of Hamer’s researchers told the Times that homosexuality is "not the only thing we study," but it is "a primary focus of study." Hamer reportedly stated he has pushed for an Office of Gay and Lesbian Health inside the National Institutes of Health, and he testified in opposition to Colorado’s Amendment 2, which sought to keep homosexual activists from winning minority class status. Sen. Robert C. Smith (R-New Hampshire) accused the doctor of "actively pursu[ing] ¼ a gay agenda."13

Another fact that casts doubt on Hamer’s conclusions is that his study has not been replicated by other researchers, which would help to confirm his theory. In 1999, Drs. George Rice, Neil Risch and George Ebers published their findings in Science after attempting to replicate Hamer’s Xq28 study. Their conclusion: "We were not able to confirm evidence for an Xq28-linked locus underlying male homosexuality." Moreover, they added that when another group of researchers (Sanders, et al.) tried to replicate Hamer’s study, they too failed to find the genetic connection to homosexuality.14


A very important and often cited study, the twins study.

quote:
Another study that has advanced the theory that homosexuality is a biological phenomenon is the famed "Twin Study" by J. Michael Bailey and Richard C. Pillard. Bailey and Pillard examined identical and fraternal twin brothers and adopted brothers in an effort to establish a genetic link to homosexuality.
However

quote:
The study results yielded some statistics that seem to support the hypothesis and other statistics that appear to refute it. Fifty-two percent of the identical twins shared the same homosexual sexual orientation, while only 22 percent of fraternal twins fell into the same category. This finding appears to support the argument for biology, since identical twins share the same genes. However, the rate of non-twin conformity should mirror that of fraternal twins. In the Bailey and Pillard study, the rate was only 9.2 percent. And the rate in adopted—which, if the biological hypothesis were true, should have been even lower than non-twin brothers—was actually higher (11 percent).15

In his analysis of the medical evidence supporting a biological cause of homosexuality, Dr. Byne noted other twin studies. He wrote, "Without knowing what developmental experiences contribute to sexual orientation ¼ the effects of common genes and common environments are difficult to disentangle. Resolving this issue requires studies of twins raised apart."16

Other physicians have also criticized the study for overvaluing the genetic influence.17

Dr. Byne’s arguments might lead some activists to label him a "homophobe." He is, in reality, quite the contrary. Byne readily advocates societal acceptance of homosexuality, but nevertheless concludes, "Most of the links in the chain of reasoning from biology to social policy [regarding homosexuality], do not hold up under scrutiny."18

As a matter of fact, Bailey did conduct another study in 1999, published in the March 2000 issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, that revealed the genetic influence on homosexuality he supposedly found earlier may actually be less. He sent a questionnaire to the entire Australian Twin Registry. Only three pairs of identical male twins were both homosexual out of a total of 27 male identical twin pairs in which at least one was homosexual. Of the 16 fraternal male twins, in none of the pairs were both homosexual. Bailey found similar results for lesbians.19


On the hormone debate

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In 1998, researchers Dennis McFadden and Edward G. Pasanen published a study that evaluated the auditory systems of heterosexuals and homosexuals. Specifically the study considered differences in echo-like waveforms emitted from an inner ear structure of people with normal hearing. These waves are higher in women than in men, often attributed to the person’s exposure to androgen (a male hormone) in his or her early development as a fetus.20

The McFadden study found the level of these waveforms in the ears of self-acknowledged lesbian women ranged between those of men and those of heterosexual women. The researchers concluded that this evidence suggests that female homosexuality could be a result of increased exposure to the male hormone androgen in the womb (homosexual men did not show the same variation).21

however

quote:
The media eagerly jumped on this bandwagon, touting the evidence that homosexuality is indeed biological. But even the researchers themselves are not too quick to draw definitive conclusions. They caution that the results are only tentative. In the published study, they point out that exposure to "intense sounds, certain drugs, and other manipulations" can lower the level of these auditory waveforms. "Thus, it may be that something in the lifestyles of homosexual and bisexual females leads them to be exposed to one or more agents that have reduced the [waveforms], either temporarily or permanently."22 Moreover, even if the hearing differences were caused by an increased exposure to androgen in the womb, scientists would still be a far cry away from proving that this exposure is a cause of homosexuality—especially since the difference was not apparent in the male homosexual sample.

In March 2000, yet another study on a biological link to homosexuality hit the media with fanfare. This time researchers weren’t looking at ears, but fingers. Scientists believe finger length indicates how much exposure a person had to androgen while in the womb.

Typically, people’s index finger is slightly shorter than the ring finger—a difference that is seen more clearly on the right hand due to exposure to higher levels of androgen while the human is developing in the womb. In females, the ring finger and index finger are almost the same size, but in men the ring finger is generally shorter.

In this study, Berkeley’s Dr. Breedlove, who had in 1997 shown how sexual activity can change brain structure, found that homosexual women’s finger length had a tendency to follow the male pattern. But again, the media was more eager than the researcher to draw definitive conclusions as to what this means. In fact, Breedlove told CNN, "There is no gene that forces a person to be straight or gay. … I believe there are many social and psychological, as well as biological, factors that make up sexual preference."23


You can clearly see it is nowhere near the scientific fact that you attempt you tout it is. In fact, it appears that it is more likely a choice given that the studies done to try and prove it wound up doing more to lend results to say that it is not biological.

[ March 15, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: BrianM ]

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Telperion the Silver
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Hey! It's the Thnikkaman!!

Can I have some..?
[Wink]

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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Fugu if I am showing my ignorance then point me to the study that shows exactly what part of the genetic code carries the information for homosexuality.
You do realize, Brian, that many commonplace medical disorders are known to have genetic basis before the exact marker is found, right?

Cystic fibrosis, sickle cell anemia, Huntington's disease, hemophilia, and literally hundreds of others were known by their heredity patterns to be genetic in nature before their markers were identified. The BRCA gene for breast cancer is present in some, but by no means all, persons with breast cancer -- and we expect to continue to identify more, just as we have continued to identify more genetic mutations that can cause cystic fibrosis.

I'm not saying that homosexuality as a trait (in the medical sense) is at the same level, but surely this cannot be the standard of evidence to accept.

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