posted
Bob, thanks for sharing your insights and feelings. I think part of the reason for the resounding positive comments about the LDS church on this forum is that there's a high percentage of members here that have strong positive feelings and good experiences. Beyond that, our faith in the LDS church is very strong. Strong enough that many of us have chosen to serve missions, spending 1.5-2 years telling people how great we think it is.
There are a fair number of people out there who have become disenchanted with the LDS church and would share a very different viewpoint. I am surprised I haven't seen much (if any) of that here.
As for me, I am not suprised to see human fallacy in any church inasmuch as I believe God uses fallable human beings to do His work. But I believe that for those who are truly willing to follow Him and seek His will, He will help them be more than they ever could have been alone. I do not believe that human fallacy reflects badly on a church.
As we have seen here, there are many different ways of doing things. We tend to support and defend the ways of the group we feel most strongly attached to.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Thank you for the information on how to deal with reverend as a title. So if you are using a noun, would you use minister? The minister? Sorry. We use bishop as both a title and a noun.
I've been told some of these things by a protestant friend of mine, although she is of the non-denomonational type with leanings towards baptist. There are all forms of protestantism, sorry if I lumped UMC with other things I've been told.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
Sometimes the point is to get people out of their comfort zones - to do things they've never done before and may not be comfortable doing. That's how growth happens.
One of the talks in sacrament meeting yesterday (seriously, the whole day was about callings. My RL and my Hatrack life are intersecting, and it's spooky) was from a girl who joined the church a little over a year ago. She played the piano a little before, and they called her to play the piano in sacrament meeting. Every week. She practiced for almost half an hour every day, mostly out of a desire to avoid public humiliation. Now she's very comfortable up there, she's comfortable with the hymns, which she likes because reading scripture is sort of new for her and she relates to the language of the hymns better, and she's made enough mistakes in public and have everything be fine that she doesn't worry about it. All in all, it's been great.
And she would NEVER have volunteered for it. I think it's wonderful.
posted
The only thing more rewarding than personal growth is inspiring it in others and having it work!!!
I think that's great. And I'm comfortable with giving credit to God, and the wisdom of the folks who had to decide. It's all good.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
As long as we also give credit to God for screwing up and "calling" somebody who backs out, does a bad job, and/or loathes every minute of it, I'm okay with it. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've tried to figure out a reaction to this, Tom.
I guess the best thing is to be honest.
That irritated me.
I'm sure I irritate you and a lot of people, but I don't think it is through biting remarks that aren't really jokes, even if you would have put j/k.
If you were an avowed athiest, it wouldn't bother me.
But you profess to want to know that God exists. You occassionally let show a deep desire to have a relationship with God. And then you say things to imply that since you haven't found that, then all others who claim it must have irrationally deluded themselves into their own experiences and then use faulty reasoning to back it up.
Yeah, and I know I'm being melodramatic and sensitive and stuff, so now I'm even more irritated.
posted
"And then you say things to imply that since you haven't found that, then all others who claim it must have irrationally deluded themselves into their own experiences and then use faulty reasoning to back it up."
I'm genuinely sorry you're irritated. But I'll be honest, here: I DO think you've deluded yourself, based on every single experience and datum available to me. If God ever sees fit to convince me otherwise, it's certainly within His power to do so.
That said, I should have resisted the temptation to point out the flaws in the logical process above. I apologize.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
You realize, of course, that you *could* take those comments as being extremely telling of Tom's ongoing relationship with God/no God, rather than being an attack on everyone who does believe.
But I shouldn't even try to speak for him.
Edit: Largely because of the post above mine
[ March 22, 2004, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Bob the Lawyer ]
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
*shrug* Bob, if there's one thing I've learned about personal religion, it's that everyone takes it personally. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
The problem with your line of thinking Tom, and I think what others are fidning offensive, is that you are purporting God to be fallible and making mistakes, which flies in the face of most theology.
Assuming God's perfection, just because someone fails or is in some way not up to the task, doesn't necessisarily mean that it's a complete waste.
Some of the greatest life lessons I've learned came from failing to do things I believe God had intended for me to do.
Posts: 995 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Then why are you attacking it? You say you're looking for it, then attack those that found something. Something's disingenuous.
You're not a disinterested observer asking questions - you're making comments designed to make other people look stupid. In your own arrogance, you could ask how the incredibly intelligent people you are talking to came to the conclusions that you see.
posted
Peter: then, as we thank God for the times the girl learned how to enjoy playing the piano in public, we ALSO need to thank God for all the times God sent her running from the temple in tears, for reasons He kept to Himself for the time being. The classical argument is that the SECOND "thank you" is somehow implicit, but I rarely hear it explicitly stated: "God, thank you for making me miserable for my own good."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
With all due respect Bob, and admitting that I did laugh at that cartoon, this is exactly the same kind of biting joke but now pointed in Tom's direction.
It may help me feel better about my position, but it doesn't help Tom. Just like Tom's remark doesn't help me.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why get mad at Tom for being honest? He's calling it like he sees it.
You may see it differently but I don't see why you should get offended, when you know Tom is stating something he believes as deeply as you hold your convictions.
I don't think he was even being brutally honest because if he was there would have been a much more mean spirited streak through his comments. Instead he attempted to lighten the disagreement with levity and you guys jumped all over him.
quote:Peter: then, as we thank God for the times the girl learned how to enjoy playing the piano in public, we ALSO need to thank God for all the times God sent her running from the temple in tears, for reasons He kept to Himself for the time being. The classical argument is that the SECOND "thank you" is somehow implicit, but I rarely hear it explicitly stated: "God, thank you for making me miserable for my own good."
Church, not temple. And she never left in tears. The couple of times she did play imperfectly, it wasn't any kind of deal and she's the only one that remembered.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm claiming the right to judge the validity of those experiences for myself, of course, which is the same right that ANYONE has.
If I made a post saying I had been contacted by the Alien Star Lords, I wouldn't insist that everyone here believe me; if I came back under an alias pretending to be the princess of Ethiopia or something, I would EXPECT skepticism. In either case, I would neither expect nor demand that people accept my stated belief at face value; I would merely expect that they voice their skepticism in as respectful a manner as possible.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Simply because the second "thank you" isn't given as often, doesn't change anything. Plus, maybe you just aren't around to hear it.
It's much easier to be grateful for successes than failures at any level. I was just telling my wife last night about how I have a hard time admitting I am wrong. Those learning experiences I mentioned, I rarely share, because they involve me failing, not because of anything having to do with God or my attitude towards him.
Posts: 995 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, I prefer Tom's honest evaluation to the biting remark. Thank you very much Tom.
And Tom, I look back at my life and I'm grateful for everything. Even the shit that happened. I have even been known to be grateful at the time, though not always.
More irrational reasoning: There can be no joy without grief. I have great joy in my life.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
*shrug* Not really, BtL. It reminds me a bit of the dwarves in The Last Battle, who also don't annoy me for the same reason: there ARE people out there who, clearly confronted with evidence of God, would deny it. Now, I AM mildly affronted when people who know me well would suggest that I'm one of those people, since it implies that someone I care about clearly doesn't know me as well as I'd hoped, but that happens much more rarely.
posted
You may not believe what they've found, but they have obviously found something. Unless you want to claim that every who has found peace and revelation is lying, they have found something. Something consistent, and warming, and happy, that you say you're looking for.
Banna: Girl, I've got to get AIM back.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
"As long as we also give credit to God for screwing up and "calling" somebody who backs out, does a bad job, and/or loathes every minute of it, I'm okay with it."
There's already been a fair amount of discussion about human fallibility in callings. Might I add that God makes callings knowing full well that the person could mess it up, hate it, or quit. And he won't necessarily stop them from doing that.
However, he will always be there to support those whom he has called, in whatever capacity they are serving, if they choose to put some effort into overcoming whatever obstacles they might be facing in regards to their responsibilities. He will make weaknesses become strengths, and he will help the person come to understand, succeed at, and even love the work he has called them to do. But first the person must decide that they are going to give it their best effort and keep a good attitude.
It's not a church for wimps.
Posts: 52 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
kat, I'm not looking for something comforting and happy. I'm looking for the truth, which would hopefully be a comfort. That's actually a huge and very relevant distinction.
I've said before that I'm happy for people who have faith -- precisely because they HAVE found a source of comfort that they clearly needed. That's about where it stops, though, by definition, until it's possible to confirm the rightness of their beliefs.
------
"But first the person must decide that they are going to give it their best effort and keep a good attitude."
Isn't that rather like saying that healings work unless the person in question doesn't deserve to be healed, or unless it serves God's purpose for the healing to fail? It's almost EXACTLY like saying that God will send you a sign that He exists once you believe in Him.
posted
I didn't say I had any tact, just that other people should. Ok, and me too -- it's something I am working on.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
Based on Tom's response the comic stands. I trust he realizes that I was not implying Bob was him, but rather his position taken to an extreme. And, darn it, people don't have to take everything so seriously.
In closing, does the lord work in the way we see in the final panel? Maybe I should start going to church more and explore this possibility.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, Tom, I would prefer it if you didn't shut your mouth.
Because of you, I had to reexamine a couple of years ago. You gave me a great gift. More than I can repay.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
Technically yes. Especially if it's an unpopular job. I love working with kids and started volunteering as a substitute sunday school teacher. (primary in the LDS Church) Within a couple months I was "called" to teach a class of my own on a regular basis.
Posts: 995 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
You can't volunteer for leadership positions, but I've had a few bishops ask me what I liked doing. I told him I loved teaching, and got callings that let me do that. That's not precisely volunteering, but I'm sure my answer had something to do with it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are many non-calling things you can volunteer for. These typically amount to jobs that need to be done but are temporary like "we'll get you the stuff, but can you make this for the ward dinner?" and cleaning the church. Cleaning the church has one calling per ward for someone to organize it, but the actually cleaning is done by volunteers.
But for ongoing jobs that need to be filled, a calling is made.
As stated before the, being a full time missionary is an exception: you need to volunteer.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
and someone thought Tom, kat and I could agree with each other on anything...![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
tact?! ![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
I flunked the school of tact 
