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...stick shift, that is. To make a long story short, I got into another accident a while back and finally got insurance crap sorted out. Got myself a 5-speed '93 nissan 240sx as a replacement. I started learning to drive it last night and felt brave, so I drove to school today. I only stalled it once on the way back and almost have the whole shifting into first gear down. I figure I'm doing pretty good, although I have a ways to go. I guess the only big thing I need to figure out is when you're at a stop on an incline and getting the car to move again without rolling backwards. Driving has always been my "zen" activity so this is like taking it to another level and I'm totally having fun with this.
Anyone else have stories about learning stick shift (good or bad)?
Posts: 99 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I learned how to drive on a stick shift. My dad had some strange notion that it would make me a better driver. I don't know if it worked, but I have yet to get in an accident after about 5 years of driving.
When I was first learning, I would stall like crazy. One time, early in my driving lessons, I was at a red light, which of course turned green, and I stalled. Started the car back up, stalled. Then the drivers behind me started to honk incessantly. I was flummoxed, and couldn't start the damn car rolling for the life of me. I eventually had to switch seats with my dad, so he could get us the hell out of there.
Going up an incline isn't so bad, once you get the hang of it. There's a friction point, where once you let the clutch out to a certain point, the car will start rolling forward without any pressure on the gas. Find out where the friction point is on a flat surface, and get used to knowing where it is. Then when you're going uphill from a stopped position, while your foot is on the brake, let the clutch out to the friction point, then let off the break and put some pressure on the gas. Then proceed as normal.
Posts: 1855 | Registered: Mar 2003
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My Dad decided to take me for my first lesson - we went out to a big carpark with no-one in it, and he proceeded to tell me what I should do.
I drove twice around the car park, something like this - start, stall, start, bunny-hop, stall, start, stall.. and so on.
The next day Dad gave me the money for professional lessons.
Edit: When I'm on an incline, I tend to use the brake until the lights change (or until I see the other lights go red, if I'm first in line). Then I release the clutch to the friction point, release the brake and press slightly down on the accelerator. Between the accelerator and the clutch, the car stays still happily until it's time to move. If it's a really steep hill though - handbrake start.
The simple thing is figuring out the point that the clutch engages the transmission.
Simply put, get yourself to a parking lot or something, and do the following: put the car in first gear and let out the clutch slowly without pushing the gas pedal at all. You should eventually feel the car moving forward slightly. This is your transmission's sweet spot. Repeat the process over and over again until you know its exact location. You'll eventually get to the point where it is second-nature, but knowing it intellectually doesn't hurt either. When on a hill, you'll get to the point where, while you're letting off the brake, you're foot will move the clutch, simultaniously, to this position. Then, while engaging the accelerator and letting off more of the clutch, you'll have a smooth start without rolling backwards.
Driving stick is all about doing several things at once. aka should be in here soon to sing praises for the joy of double-clutching (which is loads of fun too.)
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I had a job when I was 17. I ended up having to drive a truck from work (on top of a hill with steep windy curves and many stop signs), into town and back.
Now, I had never had a reason to drive a standard. Never. I'd seen it done and I knew the basics. But this was a 70's era checy pickup with who knows how many miles on it, with an old "3 on the tree" shifter.
The ensuing hilarity (I was told) at me trying to go from an uphill stop without stalling the engine amused my coworkers for about a half hour. damn standard....
Posts: 100 | Registered: Feb 2004
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If you need to double-clutch, your syncros are too worn, period. My car has a gazillion miles on it, but luckily only the 1st gear syncro has real issues. When starting from a standstill I use 3rd gear to spin up the intermediate shaft before shifting into first -- helps the spline teeth grab quicker and with less wear, but not necessary unless you feel it refusing to slip in easily. All shifts should be possible with the pressure of one finger, if I haven't mentioned so. When you find the right timing that creates this ability, you'll find it actually faster than tugging on the stick, barring the utter brute force of a drag race.
I've never needed to do a handbrake start, even driving east from the Seattle waterline (SF-style hill if you've never been there). You simply use the same foot technique as if you were doing a heel-and-toe downshift around a corner. Google that term if you like, but the gist is to use your heel to blip the throttle while still applying brake pressure.
Go to any website with car geeks and you'll find long debates about downshifting. Quick answers: (against) Brake pads are cheaper than clutch disks. (for) Staying in gear, especially in the torque band of your engine, is safer. (for) Once you can successfully rev match, there's no wear anyway. (against) If you have strong engine braking (like my diesel does, being high-compression), slowing down without accompanying brake lights can be dangerous.
Edit: Lear is weird. The only good reason to get an automatic is if (1) it's a genuine CVT or electronic clutch, not a "TipTronic", or (2) you need to drink a latte AND talk on a cell phone at the same time. Needless to say, the latter person is better off taking the bus, for my insurance rate's sake.
[ March 24, 2004, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: Richard Berg ]
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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Okay, this is how I was told to do a hill start when I was learning to drive a manual car: Turn on ignition. Put car in first gear. "Set" the gas by pressing the accelerator a little bit. At this point the handbrake should still be on. Now look in your mirrors to make sure no one is coming. Then release the clutch slowly until you get to the "biting point" the bit where it engages the transmission. At this point have a last quick look in your mirrors, put the handbrake down and off you go... worked for me every time, it was the rest of the driving that didn't!
Posts: 1550 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I have spent most of the past several months trying to teach my three teens to drive my 5-speed pickup.
What Julian said above is perfect -- and the way I handle it. I take them to a spot where there is a small uphill grade (hard to find in this area of Kansas <wink>) and have them push in the clutch and then slowly let it out until they find that 'sweet spot' of where the clutch can hold it from rolling back, yet not go forward. Once they get the feel for that -- it all works.
That's how I handle all grades -- use the clutch to hold it, then let it on out when I'm ready to move forward. Rarely use the brake -- except to get stopped to begin with.
Farmgirl *of course, I used to drive a semi-truck - 13 speeds, shift without clutch -- so my kids think I'm impatient with their slow learning on this*
-You get better gas mileage, on average -You are more engaged in driving, it's more pleasing to drive stick once you learn. -Cars that come with both manual and autmatic transmissions usually have the manual model as less expensive by a hundred bucks or so.
- ability to burn rubber on launches - ability to keep engine in the power band at will - ability for the company to use a lower final drive ratio - etc.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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I was 18 or so (uh, eons ago), headed out to Boulder, CO, to visit him for spring break, and had only ever driven automatic. My uncle had said I would have the use of his car during my visit, if I didn't mind cabbing him to work. I didn't mind, sounded great, so I'd accepted -- without asking the all-important question ahead of time.
To make a long story short, I still hadn't said anything by the time Monday morning rolled around, I'm sitting in the driver's seat of his standard shift Mercedes, and he's to my right in his suit and tie, clutching his briefcase. "Let's roll!"
I peer down at the pedals (yikes! there are three!), squint at the gear-shift lever, and try to ask the sort of question that, um, someone might ask if it were merely an unfamiliar car, not an entirely unfamiliar paradigm.
"Soooo... this one here is the brake...?"
Being a smart fellow, uncle got the picture pretty quickly. "You don't know how to drive a shift, do you?"
(Wincing), "no."
"Well, no better time to learn, I suppose..." -- And he proceeded to teach me, on the way to his office. I stalled a few times, but he wasn't too late to work when he got out and let me take off on my own....
Over the years -- especially in snowy climates -- I came to appreciate the fine control that manuals provide, and I generally prefer them. And then there's always the argument -- vanishingly unlikely ever to be applicable -- that one should know both driving skills, "in case you ever have to drive someone else's car in an emergency, and it's a shift."
I want to be able to drive a bulldozer, or a tank, in an emergency. Like movie heroes. Posts: 431 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: Anyone else have stories about learning stick shift (good or bad)?
Heh, I learned how to drive a stick shift from my grandpa. He used to work for Chysler and then retired finally in the late 80's due to my grandmother's stroke. Subsequently he owns a lot of antique Mopar cars. He turns to me a few years ago and asks if I want to drive the 1942 Plymouth around. I had never driven a stick up to this point. So I said yes, and have never gone to an automatic since. Three speed on the tree (column shifter). Even my old chevy has a 3 speed on the tree.
Hey, watch out on the downshift. Those can be tricky at first.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ooh, neglected to mention the other eternal debate. Should one keep the car in gear when stopped? (pro) You can move at a moment's notice, with possible safety ramifications both ways. (against) Keeping the clutch disengaged puts wear on the throwout bearing. Aren't most cars designed to handle that stress? Most probably are...about all you can keep in mind is that the more engine torque, the more disc pressure required, thus the higher spring load to remove it. Considering it's not really necessary to induce that load, there's no reason to find out the hard way that your bearing can't take 100k miles of consistent depression -- the part itself is cheap but requires almost as much labor to get to as a complete clutch swap does.
My takes on the 2 issues: I downshift, but I'm good at it. I will put it in neutral if it's a long light, but will spin up the tranny as noted in the first post before moving again.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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~90% of cars in Europe use standard trannies. (~50% are also diesels, so I have their moral backing on both of my usual car-related crusades )
Although, despite my skills with the powertrain, I can never figure out how to work the wipers in a strange car. Isn't it always raining/snowing in those movies?
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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Over here in the UK stick/manual/gears is the norm. I learned to drive with gears but love driving automatic if travelling long distances on motorways - you don't have to worry about forgeting to change down when you get off or have to slow down.
In answer to the first question its a case of learning clutch control on your specific car - you're biting point is different on different cars. If its a really steep incline put your hand brake on until you feel the car wanting to move and then go.
In answer to the other question - I always drive in gear and rarely ever use the handbrake - its a matter of taste although I know you're taught to always but the brake on and take it out of gear when stationary (i.e. lights etc)
Posts: 394 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I have had to replace 2 automatic transmissions. Another reason for going manual. In/out of gear? It really depends on when the light changed for if I have it in gear w/ clutch in or just go to neutral. I always start uphills in first, but can easilly do it in second. I haven't rolled back on accident in a long time. I do it on purpose sometimes, just to see the faces of those behind me.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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One more tidbit. I made a comment earlier on being able to shift with a light touch. To feel what I'm talking about, try this: get up to 10mph, put it in neutral, then press very slightly toward 1st as you slow down. At some point before you stop it should slip into place effortlessly. That's how all shifting should feel, ideally.
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
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So its been goin ok so far, until today, when I was coming home... stalled twice at the same turn light. Also couldn't get it into fourth gear correctly. It kept making a grinding noise, so I would just accelerate and go straight from fourth to fifth. I don't get it, because I'm doing the same thing for every other shift and its working fine.
I've been trying to figure out where the "sweet spot" is and can't seem to get it consistantly. I'll get it sometimes and other times I can't feel it and then it'll stall.
I still don't quite understand the mechanics of the clutch so I don't know what's wrong. The previous owner did tell me that the clutch didn't have too much life left in it and everyone else that's driven the car has said that the clutch doesn't feel right.
I'm just hoping it'll last for a couple more weeks, because I'm planning on doing an engine swap which will include a new transmission. Oh well, at least I'm destroying a crappy clutch instead of a new one.
It's frustrating because I understand how I'm supposed to do it, but can't do it consistantly well. I'll get it though. Its encouraging to know that other people have struggled and it isn't just me. Thanks all for the help.
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At first it just takes practice. Then, when it has been awhile since you have driven a manual trans, it is like riding a bike. You never forget.
If your current position wasn't what it is, I would need to learn your clutch. Obviously with what you said, it will end up being useless for current setup. However, all clutches are different I have noticed. Mine is about halfway. My friend Ken's is almost as soon as you press the pedal. My landlord's sister's car you have to press the pedal all the way to the floor.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Also couldn't get it into fourth gear correctly. It kept making a grinding noise, so I would just accelerate and go straight from fourth to fifth. I don't get it, because I'm doing the same thing for every other shift and its working fine.
It is possible that either your synchomesh is going out (or is gone) on 4th or that you're accidentally hitting reverse instead of 4th gear.
Driving a manual just takes some practice and time. And every one is different - I still occasionally stall my husband's car because I'm used to the feel of my truck (which has great low end torque and needs almost no gas at all when starting up from a stop). You'll get the hang of it - especially finding the sweet spot (in some cars, it's really difficult to feel).
Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Yeah, it always depends. My car's engagement point is far enough back in the pedal's throw that it messed some people up. OTOH, those "puny" 90 horses can shift into 1st, 2nd, and up to 3rd without ever touching the gas
quote:I still don't quite understand the mechanics of the clutch so I don't know what's wrong.
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ludusti- it never occurred to me that i might be throwing it into reverse. My shifter is one of those that has the little baggy around it instead of the metal panel with the "H" stenciled out. I'll have to pay closer attention to that.
Richard- That site is awesome! Thanks.
Posts: 99 | Registered: Jun 2001
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