I wasn't casting ugliness. Just a question. The kind of question that I often feel compelled to ask, as that is my nature (ugly or not).
Katharina,
Thank's for responding. That's a rarity for me. I "think" I understand what you are saying. For me, though, the public display, the need to cast one's personal life into a narrative format with dramatic highlights makes the person "less real". I don't feel that I'm reading someone's personal account so much as reading a dramatization of that account. So, I feel ridiculous when weeping or elating. How can I extract something meaningful from something I'm perceiving as being fairly fictionalized for the reader?
quote: you people are people who...are part of a faith which I am not a part of.
If by "You People" you mean Hatrack in general, by no means are we all of the same faith. There are many different representations of faiths - and lack thereof - on Hatrack.
So contrary to popular belief - we're not ALL Mormon
---
And Fallow - how would you like people to talk of their lives? In a droll, Scientific Journal dry just-the-facts manner? While I'm sure often times hyperbole is used (and often times accepted that the reader will be wise enough to read it as such), most of us write the way we feel. We put our thoughts - including hindsight and contexctual information - into the stories to make them more understandable, and interesting.
Telling your life story is still a form of storytelling. It just happens to be literally true, and not just philosophically True.
Obviously I don't find my own sentiments incomprehensible. Often I think I'm tossing them right down on the table, face-up. Subsequently, I'm usually baffled by the reactions.
quote:How can I extract something meaningful from something I'm perceiving as being fairly fictionalized for the reader?
fallow, all forms of self-presentation are themselves presentations, even face-to-face interactions. Some are more stilted or artificial than others, but each is always filtered through the lens of self-consciousness and intentionality.
I understand what you mean about your discomfort, though. I really do.
Hmmm... It WAS said in another language. Is it too deep to make sense when translated into English?
Hatrack IS like this though. Extremely welcoming. It may not show right away, but people notice and enjoy fresh voices. If your voice sounds like it belongs here--no matter how long it's been here--you're an accepted part of Hatrack. No need to go through some weird initiation process. So ... to a large part it's up to you, to how much you feel you fit in.
Edit: See, I used to feel insecure, asking myself all the time, 'Should I stay or should I go?' Fidgeting. Being a drag. Hungering for a sign of welcome that rarely came.
From that one sentence, and after several years of practice, I learned that a much healthier attitude was, 'Here I am, thoroughly enjoying your company. Hope you're enjoying mine, too.' It almost always works.
posted
I think each of us chooses how much of these stories are "real" to them. I know it has caused disagreements in the past because some people empathize deeply with others on this forum, considering them perhaps even greater friends than those "in real life" And that doesn't just apply to people you've met in person.
The great thing about this forum is that you can take from it what you want. If you want flippancy or fluff there's plenty here, personal stories abound as well as current events and discussion.
I happen to really like these sorts of personal threads. I like to connect with people and share stories -- thanks for this one Kat
The interesting thing is that I've been trying to think of epiphany moments in myself, and the thing is that I don't think I've ever let someone's direct opinion change me.
I think I continually change from things I see in other people, little things that affect my perception of the world a bit at a time, but any time I've had a direct confrontation with anyone, it has reinforced my stubbornness and resolve to continue on my path. Some of these things I should've heeded, others not, but I've taken great pride in "making it on my own"
This is something I guess I've always known, but this thread has made me think about that quality of myself.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:So contrary to popular belief - we're not ALL Mormon
Yet. *ominous music*
quote:Thank's for responding. That's a rarity for me. I "think" I understand what you are saying. For me, though, the public display, the need to cast one's personal life into a narrative format with dramatic highlights makes the person "less real". I don't feel that I'm reading someone's personal account so much as reading a dramatization of that account. So, I feel ridiculous when weeping or elating. How can I extract something meaningful from something I'm perceiving as being fairly fictionalized for the reader?
My pleasure.
Before I address your question, I have to admit that if I had seen Taal's post, I probably wouldn't have. Not because I didn't consider yours to be a good question, but if someone else says basically what I would have said, I often don't post. That's because...I post so much that sometimes I want to tell myself to pipe down and listen instead of talking. But if I had done that here, you might have thought I was ignoring. That's not the case. I didn't answer this question earlier because I had access to the internet for a grand total of about a minute and half last night. <sorry>
As for how you can extract something meaningful? Honestly? Trust us. Have a little charity, and trust us. I don't know everyone's hearts, but I'm pretty sure the motives here are generally good. No matter where you encounter a story, it will have been filtered through someone's perception of themselves and what they think will please the audience. There's not necessarily infinite wisdom here, but there's some. Like in most things.
posted
My dad told me something that changed me for the worse. He confessed to having a certain weakness, and I lost all hope of ever overcoming my own weaknesses. I thought if my dad still had problems that I didn't stand a chance.
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posted
Once, a while back my mother was explaining to me why one must go to such efforts to avoid people on the internet knowing anything about you. “It’s a one in a hundred chance of getting a stalker,” she told me, “but when you do, it’s so horrible it’s worth any precaution to prevent it.”
I knew that was wrong, but I didn't argue with her at them time-I waited, and thought it out thoroughly, wrote an essay about how foolish it is to go so far to avoid getting hurt that you block chances for friendship. And doing that made me realize how much I'd been doing that with other people, keeping them away. Since then, I've been trying to stop doing that so much-with the result that although I have been hurt a lot more, I made more friends, and good ones-and am generally happier and more comfortable in myself because I'm not keeping such huge walls between myself and the world.
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posted
Hey, "Just one comment", I think your conclusion is totally backwards and invalid!
Sons and daughters, as a general rule, are meant to go WAY beyond their parents' achievements. How else would mankind ever have evolved into what it is today? Yeah yeah, I know, I also sometimes explain the state of my bedroom with the fact that my forefathers used to live in caves. But it's nothing but an EXCUSE.
On the other hand, some "weaknesses" are more than weaknesses. Sometimes some folks really don't have much of a chance, no matter how much they want to be different.
Hey, did you ever watch "Smoke signals"? A wonderful little movie. It ends with an Indian prayer "How do we forgive our fathers" that makes me cry every time I hear it.
Posts: 1045 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
My stepmom and I got into an argument a while back about me having mormon friends, and she was trying to convince me that they held joseph smith in higher regard than jesus. which is of course ridiculous to anyone who has had any exposure to mormons at all. I refuted that, and she came back with "oh, well, you're not christian anyway, so you don't count." It just blew me away.
I don't often go to church with her and my dad, because the church they attend is too much fire and brimstone, and not enough God, for me. for her to decide that I wasn't christian with out EVER asking me what I believe about anything just slaughtered me. I couldn't stay in the house.
And that i didn't count hurt even more.
THis happened a month ago at least, and it still rips me up.
I was kind hoping for comment on my observations. Additional pigeon-holing wasn't really necessary. I think I've gotten used to this particular hole. No need to rub my nose in it.
yes you did. but it was my own foul mood that made me post in peevishness.
I think the idea that well-constructed narratives = "getting to know the real person" is fundamentally flawed.
You didn't really address this point (I hope I didn't miss it) Is narrative construction and trauma-trading melodrama a requisite to getting to know somebody or garnering a sense that they are real?
posted
What Tom said. If you don't understand it, that's okay, you don't have to participate, but there are more things under heaven and earth, fallow, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Answer your own questions. Assuming Hatrack is filled with intelligent people with all sorts of backgrounds and personal situations, why would they participate? You may consider it to be empty, but the evidence belies you.
*scowl* You killed my thread. I liked this thread! I like the stories. I like unexpected epiphanies. And I love these people.
posted
I can't think of any specific examples, but I know it has happened to me. As for the usefulness of these threads, I see where you're coming from, fallow, but if done in the right spirit, this can be a very useful thread. I don't know about other people, but I can't arrange my thoughts coherently unless I right them down. It is because of this that many of the one line life-changers have actually been said by myself.
Explainage: I have been posting at Pweb for over a year, and the only thread I posted in consistently and still do is the "Dear Bob" thread. I don't know how many times I've sat down to right a couple of sentences, and it just starts flowing out, and becomes a few paragraphs, in which I realize something about myself that I never saw before. This kind of thread doesn't necessarily about discussion between people, but it can be a useful opportunity to examine yourself, and figure out who you really are.
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I liked the thread, too (minus the trauma stories) and would have posted some of my own but they got pushed aside by my headlong rush into jerkiness.
Here's a question, though. Something I'd like some insight into. When I was younger, epiphanies seemed to come along fairly frequently and with great force. As I get older, they seem to have diminished in frequency and don't have that kick-in-the-pants, reeling, punch-in-the-gut, crystallization of a whole-new-world-view feel. It's a real shame. Is this common?
posted
*As the brain ages, it doesn't learn as quickly or as easily.
*Since it is harder to gain new knowledge, we lean heavily on the "tried and true" strategies rather than searching for new ones.
Anecdote: At a funeral mass today, the Priest waved the incense over the body. I've got more anthopology training than religious training, so my thought was not for the beauty of the ceremony, but for how this practice had postdated its need.
I sat there wondering how a child would have interpreted the rite.
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posted
This is a watershed thread for me. I think that I was of the "Sock-Puppet" attitude, for the most part, on Hatrack. Words on the screen, very little more. I had read some of the other "personal stories" threads, and had started to realize the depth of souls behind my computer screen, but Fallow's (was it Fallow?) "Sock Puppet" reference really put it into perspective for me. I feel like I;m starting to wake up a little bit here, on Hatrack (let's see how it carries over on P-Web).
Hi, everyone.
I have had one "One Comment" moment that sticks in my mind, and I know I was able to provide one, many years ago, to my dad.
My dad used to smoke a pipe. Don't worry--there won't be a sad ending, he's still doing quite well! Before the pipe (before I was born), he would smoke cigarettes. Even though there were/are some pretty wild smelling pipe tobaccoes (Dan Quayle--how do you spell that?), there is still that strong, underlying tobacco odor. I had tried (through logic and reason, as well as lots of pleading--I was probably somewhere between 8 or 10 at the time, as best as I can remember) to get him to quit, but to no avail.
One day, after he left the bathroom and I went in, I said something innocently that wound up having the desired effect, "Dad, I can tell when you've been to the bathroom, because it smells like tobacco."
That was it. He stopped smoking completely, right at that point.
My dad's 79 now. Knock on wood, he's going strong. He's got some medical issues (heck, I'm 42, and I've got "some medical issues"!), but nothing at all related to smoking.
I'll work my way towards telling my own story, later. Don't want to crowd the floor (feels like an AA meeting...).
posted
That may be one factor, though I don't believe that it is proven. My belief is that as we get older, we don't "need" to learn, so we don't.
Regarding epiphanies and self-actualization ::shrugs:: I don't know about you, but nearly every moment of my life is filled with input and demands; visual, auditory, time... I do all the things that need to be done without much thought. The epiphanies in my life have come when I didn't know what to do next or found a moment of quiet.
::thinks::I wonder if self-actualization is like a wave; cresting during youth and old age, ebbing in the years between 25 and 65.
Posts: 41 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I'm reminded of the debates I had in my 20s with older folks (not that much older) regarding the popular music of the day.
Then, one day I was driving around on the freeway listening to a popular channel and I couldn't identify the band/group of the song I was listening to, despite that I'd heard it probably dozens of times. Then it hit me! "All these bands sound the same, and I can't remember their names! They all sound a bit crappy, too, actually. Oh, dear god, it's happened! That thing!"
posted
If it helps, I've ALWAYS done that with music.
What do you consider older? I'm in my twenties, and I had the epiphany that started this thread last year. I've had several in the past year that have changed some aspects of my thinking pretty profoundly, but they were long overdue, so I don't know if you can count them.
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posted
I used to be really idealistic, to the point of feeling personally responsible for figuring out a solution to all the world's problems. A couple of years ago my academic advisor wrote me an email- I still have it, so these are the exact words. I had written to him about my dismay at a lot of things I 'd learned about the education system in the US:
Hi there...just back from a family trip back east...visiting early American sites. I agree with your sentiments completely, so would folks like Tom Jefferson & Ben Franklin. Unfortunately, the predominant culture in America today is just not receptive to these ideas. We are self-centered, selfish, and intellectually lazy. No one wants to hear about or even pay someone else to work on the problems of the world.
I was so indignant at first. He's such an awesome professor.
Fallow- I think when you're younger, you're building a foundation for yourself and the epiphanies you have early on really are critical for the rest of your life, and you can feel that, especially if you're sensitive. As you get older, hopefully you've built on those defining epiphanies and are just molding. Like the weathering of a mountain. It had a violent creation and afterward most of its shaping is gradual, usually hardly noticeable, but it's still happening. Wise words of a 23-year old.
posted
I agree, ssywak. It seems fallow got infected by the pun fever of Hatrack of late. Makes it sound like Alzheimer's is a guys-only disease...
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I know those are always temporary, but I think its customary to wait at least 24 hours before coming back.
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posted
This is a kind of self-comment, and it's kind of a little self-centred and very odd, but anyway:
So I was editing a story after I had finished it about a year ago (now re-editing for the third/forth time!) I was thinking about chapter names and I came up with one that I thought was brilliant and fit very well (that's the self centred bit), so I scroll back up to edit in the chapter name, only to discover that the chapter I was editing was already called that.
It was in that moment that I suddenly realised that I was actually Me. It sounds weird and strange, because of course I'm me, but maybe it was for the first time I realised that I had a personality and a mind of my own that consistantly had the same ideas. Occaisionally I still get these flashes of me-ness and it's comforting to me to know that I am Me, even if the moments are few and far between.
Told you it was strange.
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posted
Hey, Teshi, I know that one! It happens regularly when I look at older programs I wrote. I'm very bad about adding comments on what I do, so my first reaction is usually, 'what kind of moron wrote this nonsense?!'
Then, after starting over from scratch and spending two weeks getting back into it, I tend to come up with a brilliant solution here and there--only to discover it's exactly the same thing I had done before.
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