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Author Topic: Seriously considering BYU
Annie
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I visited friends at BYU while I was down there for conference and also got to interview some local LDS artists with my mom who is working on a paper. I was really fascinated by some of the people I met, especially Vern Swanson of the Springville Art Museum, and now I'm seriously considering transferring to the Y to finish my art history degree. Right now, I'm an art history minor, and I feel like I've gotten everything out of my current department and am still lacking a true professional art history education. If I transferred, it would also save me a ton of money, since I'll have to start paying out of state tuition if I stay here. If I get my BA in art history, I'll then almost certainly go for a masters.

This will undoubtedly end up being more time in school, though. I'm currently one semester away from having a BS in French and a minor in art history and 2 semesters from having a BFA in graphic design.

What are the thoughts of any more experienced BYU alumni? Any experience in the art history program? I know the fine arts program there is less than ideal and way too postmodern for my personal tastes, but the encounters I've had with art history have been good so far.

Any other input as to the smart way to finish my education?

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Dagonee
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I can't speak to BYU at all, but if you're that close, I'd reconsider transferring now. It would be worth finding out what BYU's requirements are for entering their M.A. program, and possibly modifying your course selection to account for that.

Once you enter an M.A. program, your B.A. work immediately becomes prologue. Extending your time as an undergraduate when you intend to move on to higher degrees seems to provide little benefit.

Dagonee

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katharina
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Oh Annie. *hides face in hands* Not the Y...

*grins at the other twin*

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Hobbes
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[Group Hug] I obviously can't help at all when it comes to what BYU is like but I want you to know that whatever you choose, I know you'll do it well, and I'm proud of you for what you've already done. [Smile] [Kiss]

Hobbes [Smile]

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T_Smith
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I'm with Kat on this one. Going to BYU means you'll... [whisper]be living in Provo.[/whisper]
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Trogdor the Burninator
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Rise and shout the Cougars are out... da da da da da da da, da....

Annie, don't listen to kat or T. The only people who say things like that are people who can't get into BYU.

[Smile]

Go to the Y. It's a great experience, a great campus with solid educational opportunities. And that's coming from someone who graduates with a master's degree from USU this month.

Of course, my first degree is from the Y.

If you go to the Y, will you bring that mushy Hobbes with you?

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pooka
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Annie, where are you attending now? For all the complaints that it could be better, the Y does have some national name recognition. But I don't know about the quality of their Art History program. Isn't ranked in U.S. News and World Report for some scandalous reason. I went to the U, but I'm not really into the whole rivalry thing.
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peterh
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Trogdor, Can I order a Ute Stomping Cougarfied burnination for Pooka.

I AM into the whole rivalry thing. [Evil]

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Trogdor the Burninator
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**burninates pooka the darkest shade of royal blue there is, then dances on her worthless Utah Ute ashes**

**reminds pooka that he kids her cause he likes her**

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Zalmoxis
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Here's my question, Annie:

What do you want to *do* with your degree?

You want to go for a master's in art history, right? Does that mean you'd like to teach, or curate, or work for a gallery, or become an archivist or an art restorer? How much flexibility do you want in where in the country you have a good chance of obtaining a decent job? What type of art are you most interested in?

If you are fine with working as a graphic designer [and feel you have enough of a portfolio, etc. that you don't need a degree in it], then I say go to the Y and enjoy yourself.

If you want to teach art at a two-year college or high school [rare] in the Intermountain West, then go to the Y.

If you think you can compete succesffully for the very limited curating/archivist/gallery jobs in the Intermountain West and are interested in "Western" or American Indian art, then go to the Y [although there are much better choices for both categories, I bet -- esp. for American Indian art].

If not any of those, then I'd look into other options. At the very least consider getting just your BA at BYU and going elsewhere for an MA or MFA.

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Jacare Sorridente
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Annie- Definitely take a long look at what credits will transfer etc. before you move. I have nothing but praise for the quality of education at BYU. I have found it to be on par with any other major university- though I also think that for undergrad education for most schools what you get out depends mostly on what you put in.

So basically it comes down to what you might gain by leaving the program you are in and going to BYU. To be honest, on the intellectual side if you have only 1 semester left I cannot imagine that even if the BYU program is much better you would gain all that much in proportion to the headache of transferring. On the side of basic university experience, though, I have no doubt that the change would be extreme. Student life and the student body of BYU is so far different from any university I have heard of that I don't know of any comparison that would do it justice. This, of course, includes both good and bad aspects.

For the sake of poor Hobbes I also feel it necessary to point out that going to BYU also increases your chances of getting married within the next year by about 5 fold. I think that about 3/4of the college-educated Mormons in the US met their spouse at BYU.

[ April 07, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Jacare Sorridente ]

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peterh
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[Evil Laugh] [Evil Laugh] [Evil Laugh]

Thanks, Troggy. The DSORB reference made my day.

True BYU sports fans should check out this. It's my favorite BYU related site.

added: Pooka, I wouldn't do it if I didn't love you too.

[ April 07, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: peterh ]

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Storm Saxon
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Unless you are independently wealthy, the only degree that I can see mattering is the graphics one since that will help you get a job. So, I guess my vote is to stay another two semesters where you are at.
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Annie
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Thanks for all the input, everyone. [Smile]

My main motivations are just to get into the real world of art history. Right now I'm an art history minor, and I think I've really gotten the most out of a possible education here. I've had some good professors, but this is a fine arts program, and my papers are astronomically better than everyone else's for the sole reason that everyone else is a painter or a graphic designer and has at best very basic writing skills.

For me in my current financial situation, BYU is one of my only options. There is no way I could afford an out-of-state program.

I guess what I'm debating most is whether to stay in Bozeman for the 3 French credits and the 3 art history independent study credits I'd need to graduate in December. It might be smarter to do this and then apply to the Y's grad program, but my art history minor gives me just the bare minimum in art history credits needed to apply for grad school and again, I have no way of knowing how competitive my writing abilities are on a scale larger than my little 3-professor department.

And don't you worry, I won't be seriously threatened by all the offers of marriage that will be flying my way [Roll Eyes] - my Hobbesy is way too good to me to tempt me to give serious thought to anyone else.

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Zalmoxis
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Annie:

You still haven't answered my question about what you want do. Forget the money for a moment and answer that question.

Now -- about your worry about the minimum number of credits:

How are your grades?

How good is your French?

If both of those are decent, then I wouldn't worry so much about the smallness of the program you are in. This is assuming, of course, (and I think it's a correct assumption) that you can get good recommendations from at least one of your Art History profs and one other prof.

As far as your writing goes -- I don't think that's an issue. From what I can tell, you would be a better writer than *at least* 85% of your fellow art history graduate students in even more competitive programs than BYU's.

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UofUlawguy
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I don't know anything about the Art History program at BYU, so I can't give any advice, but I just couldn't let this thread pass by without saying that

BYU SUCKS!!!

There, now I feel better.

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HollowEarth
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I think your doing yourself a disservice by not finishing the french degree somewhere. You've only got 1 class to go.
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Trogdor the Burninator
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What happened? You couldn't get into BYU's law school?

Sorry about that.

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pooka
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Oh dear. My de-emphasis of the rivalry has had an unexpected consequence. :hugs peter, leaving a large red handprint on the back of his shirt:
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UofUlawguy
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Actually, I walked up to BYU law school's table at Law Day, chatted with the rep for a while, asked him about what they look for in LSAT scores, mentioned my own score, grinned at the look on his face and agreed with him as he said "Well, with a score like that, you have your pick of schools. You wouldn't want to come to our school anyway." Then I walked away.

It was delicious.

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Trogdor the Burninator
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Oh bull crap. You wanted to be a Zoob. Admit it. Coogie lover.
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Zalmoxis
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<----amused by the tempest considering the very small teapots involved -- it's like watching two kitties hiss and spit at each other.
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Trogdor the Burninator
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**hisses and spits at Zal**
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Jon Boy
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I've taken six art classes at BYU while working towards an art minor, but none of them were in art history, so I don't feel qualified to comment on that program. I have mixed feelings about some of the other classes. I loved figure drawing and observational drawing, but spatial drawing and color theory were a waste of my time, and composition was infuriatingly post-modern (half the time, the teacher ranted about chaos theory [Roll Eyes] ). I'm probably not going to finish the minor just because it'll cost me another semester of tuition, and it probably won't help me develop my skills much more. (The most advanced classes in the minor are fundamentals classes—whoopee!)

However, I love BYU. It's a great environment and a great education. Sure, it means that you have to live in Provo, but it also means that you can hang out with all the cool Utah Jatraqueros. [Cool]

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UofUlawguy
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For sheer animosity and partisan zeal, the Utah-BYU rivalry (the Holy War) is the equal of any major-college rivalry in the U.S. It's just that the number of fans and the size of the stadiums is not as huge.

It has just gotten worse in the last decade or so. Before that, the U had a long dry spell in almost all sports (except gymnastics and, I think, skiing), so it wasn't much of contest. Now it's a lot more fun.

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Jon Boy
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quote:
Oh Annie. *hides face in hands* Not the Y...

*grins at the other twin*

[Razz]
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katharina
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Alabama versus Auburn.

People have actually killed over that one.

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Not a Danite
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kat, don't be too sure that it hasn't happened in this rivalry as well.

Not that I know anything.

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katharina
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*pat pat*

I hold that no rivalry that doesn't involve alcohol and/or Texas egos can compete in the Crazy Competition.

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zgator
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Does anyone outside of Utah know about this rivalry?
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UofUlawguy
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The Holy War does involve alcohol, at least on the part of U fans, who like to be blatant about their drinking when the Y fans are watching. And I think that Utah County egos can compete with Texas egos any day.
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Trogdor the Burninator
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quote:
It's just that the number of fans and the size of the stadiums is not as huge.

Which for, Utah fans, that number is nigh unto negligible.

I loved the U add campaign two years ago.

"Utah football -- Don't make us come and get you."

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peterh
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Lawguy: Which law school is higher ranked? I rest my case.

Also, when bringing up sports that the Yewts are successful in compared to BYU, skiing is as relevant as me saying BYU's mens volleyball team is better. (Although making it to the national championships 3 of the last 5 years and winning 2 isn't bad)

Pooka: I can take off my shirt, but the blue scarring burnination will take much longer to wear off [Razz]

Annie: BYU is a great school and will have much greater name value than a degree from MT State. However, my main advice is to stay in school as long as you can. Change your major a couple times, take business classes, and hold out on those last few credits you need for graduation as long as you can. Once you're done, it's very difficult to go back. I wish I had double majors and 4-5 minors. That way, I'd be much more attractive in the job market, and have a much broader knowledge base to work from.

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katharina
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*points to zan's post* [Razz]

The record attendance for a football game for my Texas high school is 23,000. 23,000!! In a town with 80,000 people! For a high school!

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UofUlawguy
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Sports journalists around the country know about the rivalry, because it's their job to know about it. And fans of other teams in the Mountain West Conference know about it, because they have to play against both teams several times a year. And Mormons across much of the U.S., especially the West, know about it because they are either a) BYU alumni, b) close relatives of BYU students or alumni, c) people who could never get into BYU but still idealize it and aspire to send their children there or, in a few cases, d) U of U alumni.

Unfortunately, our national television coverage isn't widespread enough for very many other people to be aware of the rivalry.

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katharina
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So...

1. people who are paid to know it,
2. people who live near it, and
3. people who went to one of those schools

?

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UofUlawguy
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peterh, their respective law school rankings seesaw back and forth, based on which school has had the most recent major addition. For instance, Utah was ranked slightly higher when I was accepted, but BYU passed them up a couple of years later when they built their new law library. However, the ranks are always almost identical. As a side note, both schools are also some of the best values in the country, when comparing their rankings to their tuitions.

And I only mentioned skiing to show that, up until the early 90's, the U didn't have much success in any major sports, just in some minor ones, but that that situation has changed now.

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peterh
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Kat, I know of most college football rivalries in the country, because I care about it. If you don't then that's one less person I have to wait in line behind at the concession stands at halftime. [Smile]
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TomDavidson
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Couldn't you attend an art school of national reputation outside of Utah?
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Jacare Sorridente
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Tom- the whole beginning of her thoughts about going to the Y stem from the fact that she likes it there. Shocking, I know.
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UofUlawguy
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It is shocking. It is time to do an intervention?
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Ayelar
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The question of what Annie really wants to do with her career is really important here. If she plans on being a graphic designer, all that really matters is her skill, and few will care which, if any, degree she has. If she wants to be a curator, I would imagine that the type of degree, reputation of the school, and focus of the curriculum are of HUGE importance.
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Jon Boy
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And then there was the out-of-state tuition to consider.
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katharina
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quote:
Kat, I know of most college football rivalries in the country, because I care about it. If you don't then that's one less person I have to wait in line behind at the concession stands at halftime.
[Razz] That's my point. I don't care, not even remotely, and even I know about Alabama and Auburn.
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BannaOj
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My opinion, finish the existing degree. It is exactly one semester. Having a degree to fall back on is invaluable. And if you only have 6 units required fill up the other 6 with more art classes that will look good when you apply to grad school.

If you want to go to BYU the following semester to pad your art classes further, while you are applying to grad schools, go by all means. If they will take you mid year as a grad student that woulds be even better. But, Quitting that short of a degree in French though limits your options. While yes, you want your life's work to be art, what if you are in between art gigs and penniless? You could support yourself as a substitute French teacher if you had to.

Also my understanding as far as grad school goes, is that just about any public university you should be able to get an out of state tuition waver at the least. Though things may be different in artistic fields vs scientific ones.

Especially in artistic fields prestige and connections are everything. You need to go to a university that allows you to make those connections. You shouldn't be worrying about the money now. That is what college loans are for. Once you graduate, you aren't considered a dependent and they no longer look at parental income for those loans either.

I understand that the LDS church preaches thriftiness, but education and buying a house seem to be the two most legitimate reasons for going into debt, because you are investing in yourself and your future. You are preparing to live the rest of your life, and you want to have the best preparation possible in order to make it rewarding as possible. Don't limit yourself and hamstring yourself before you start by not be willing to take out a relatively small loan to get through school.

This is just my opinion.

AJ

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UofUlawguy
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Because of their small fanbase, the BYU-Utah rivalry wouldn't be that big of a deal normally. But the addition of the religious element heats it up beyond its natural bounds. Most college rivalries don't have that aspect, but make up for it in sheer size.
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Storm Saxon
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So, not to be silly, but what's the job market for any of the various degrees Annie wants? Is this a silly question?
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Zalmoxis
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Exactly B-OJ.

And actually LDS Church leaders have repeatedly said the obvious -- that education and home ownership are two areas where it makes sense to go into debt.

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BannaOj
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another point... I went on for a Master's degree, but didn't finish either that or my second bachelor's due to stress-induced depression. I was extremely glad I'd finished my first bachelor's degree even though I hated it at the end. It is the reason why I'm employed now.

AJ

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Jon Boy
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But if you can get an equivalent education without going into massive debt, that's better.
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