posted
Assume you are in the position of Abraham, and are told by God to sacrifice your only son. Would you do it?
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posted
If I'm in the exact position of Abraham -- a prophet of God who I believe had a close personal relationship with him -- and had a pretty good working knowledge of his wisdom, mercy and justice, then, yes, I would.
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posted
Well, then, trogdor, I don't appreciate being told "its been done before" if it was deleted long ago, hundreds of new members haven't seen it.
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Which is at least one reason that he didn't ask Sarah to do it, IMO. I think nearly any mother would tell God to go stuff himself, under those circumstances.
I mean, if I truly believed God had spoken to me... If he said, "Hey Olivetta! I want you to wear orange." I'd probably swallow my pride and do it. I think I have, in the past, felt something promting me to do something for someone, etc.
But once that "little voice" says "Kill ____" I would be all over the place, screaming MEDICATE ME! MEDICATE ME NOW!Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:I mean, if I truly believed God had spoken to me... If he said, "Hey Olivetta! I want you to wear orange." I'd probably swallow my pride and do it. I think I have, in the past, felt something promting me to do something for someone, etc.
But once that "little voice" says "Kill ____" I would be all over the place, screaming MEDICATE ME! MEDICATE ME NOW!
Why would you be insane for believing the voice in your head is God when it tells you to kill people, and religious when it tells you to wear orange?
Posts: 641 | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I dunno Eddie. I no longer consider myself religious, but I don't see it as inconsistent to say that you trust, up to a certain point where what you're being asked to accept is a little more than your personal threshold.
So I can imagine saying, if God tells me to wear orange, I am willing, based on the other factors that have led me to believe that He exists and that He loves me and so forth, to take it on faith that there is a good reason why I should wear orange today. On the other hand, for many if not most of us, if God tells us to kill our child, this is too inconsistent with the idea of a benevolent and loving God for us to take this on faith, and so our faith breaks down.
Might not be a perfectly pious answer, in one sense, but it makes sense to me.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
That story always bothers me. If God is omnipotent, wouldn't he know what sort of person Abraham is? Wouldn't he already understand his devotion and not have to put him through that? Wrong is wrong, the way I see it and that part of the bible is just... Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Pat, can you elaborate on your answer? Like what you would have to know specifically? I know it's an awfully abstract question, but I'm just trying to wrap my brain around it.
I mean, most Christians know, in an academic sense, of God's wisdom, mercy, and justice. So I'm guessing you mean a more concrete knowledge. So do you mean if you knew what His specific plans/need for your child were? Then again, I'm not sure if Abraham had such specific knowledge . . . he had this relationship with God, let's say, but I don't think he knew why God was asking this of him . . . I'm not arguing, mind you, just freewriting here. Do you mean simply if . . . hmm . . . rather than me put words in your mouth, can you tell me what kind of knowledge you mean?
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posted
For me, the issue isn't so much whether I'm sure the message to kill my son came from God or not, but rather whether I would want to have that sort of God.
I'm walking along some day, tending my sheep, and God tells me to kill my son, no reasons given. Of course we find out later that God didn't actually want this to happen, but I have no idea that this is just a test. I would like to believe that even if I 100% believed that it was God talking to me, that I would refuse to worship or serve such a God.
I've sometimes considered that maybe this Abraham/Issac thing was a completely different sort of test, and that Abraham failed. The choice wasn't about the killing, but rather Abraham's blind acceptance. The result of Abraham's choice was that his God took on the aspect of one that demands blind obedience and relies not on justice or higher values, but sheer force in reward/punishment form as his mode of dealing with people. Had Abraham chosen differently, perhaps God would have accomodated that choice and taken on an aspect dedicated to truth and justice who valued man's ability to reason and thus appealed to this reason and to man's sense of the higher values.
Of course, it's important to keep in mind that I regard the God of the Christian Old Testament to be evil and that, I'd like to think that if, after I died, I wsa given the choice between serving this God and going to Hell, I'd choose to go to Hell. And who knows, if I'm right about this Abraham thing, maybe that choice would affect God much more than it would affect me.
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I'm not really serious here, but I sort of am anyway.
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quote: I've sometimes considered that maybe this Abraham/Issac thing was a completely different sort of test, and that Abraham failed. The choice wasn't about the killing, but rather Abraham's blind acceptance. The result of Abraham's choice was that his God took on the aspect of one that demands blind obedience and relies not on justice or higher values, but sheer force in reward/punishment form as his mode of dealing with people. Had Abraham chosen differently, perhaps God would have accomodated that choice . . . .
posted
I'm with Pat here. The key is, Abraham was a Prophet of God, very different than your typical follower. In other words, if I thought the Holy Spirit gave me the impression to kill my son I would high-tail it away from wherever I was when I got that impression and probably try to cleanse my soul for about a millenium and a holf. However, should I have seen God in the flesh and heard him tell me specifically...well I guess I can't garuntee what I'd do but as far as I could, I would.
VWiggen, that's true, if God commanded it, it would be done, but you have to realize that God doesn't often give commandments like that, and whenver He does anything even similar you can see the results after enough time as being good.
If you set up a scenerio in which God causes you to comitt an action in which the final consequence (the sum of all consequences of the action) is negative and then ask if we'd do it, you miss the point, most of us don't believe in a God that would do such a thing. We trust Him to do what is right, and coming up with a stituation in which He doesn't is rather meaningless to our faith.
posted
I'm not as flippant about it as vwiggin . . . this isn't my "problem" with religion . . . but Hobbes, I don't agree that the question is pointless. A prophet found himself in just this situation. Virtually all of us are speculative fiction readers, this seems like fair game for speculation. What if your God asked you to do something that you saw as clearly immoral? Saying, "Oh, He wouldn't," is a cop out. What if he did? Okay, your faith that this scenario is impossible makes your answer safe. I don't think it would be a sin to say, if this impossible situation occurred, I would reject my God. Or, alternatively, you could say, my faith in His ultimate rightness is such that I would obey my God and reject my personal moral reasoning.
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posted
OK Icarus, I understand what you're saying.
If God asks us to do something we see as immoral: we should do it. Obviously, if we thought it was really a horid thing to do we better make darn sure it was God asking us to do it before we do it (in the case of murder, I would require full prophetic vision for instance). That's the answer to your question as I understand it. If God asked me to do something and I knew it was God then I would also know that althought the act by itself may be immoral, the overal effect would end up negating the immorality (killing one to save thousands as an example).
What I was adressing was the common question: what if God asked you to do something that would end up, after all it's effects are taken into account, to be immoral. And my response would be that although there'd be little way for us mortals to determine it, the question is irrevlant for most Christians since we don't believe in a God that would require such a thing.
posted
*is reminded of the old Testiment* The part where God says to kill every man, woman and child in Canaan. Does it make it right, even though God said so? It touches on something I'd like to write about.... If I can find a way to explain it...
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posted
Syn, I can't speak for everybody, but for me, no God requiring it is not what makes it morally acceptable, what makes it morally acceptable is that the overall effect of murdering all people in Canaan is positive. The only person who knows what would've happened had this not occured is God and He required that the work be done. It's my assumption then that should it not have been done, far worse things would've befallen the world because of it.
posted
I don't mean it in a rude way, though it might be coming off that way.
I mean the point where you say it's irrelevant because it can't happen:
quote: And my response would be that although there'd be little way for us mortals to determine it, the question is irrevlant for most Christians since we don't believe in a God that would require such a thing.
And thinking about it some more, I guess it isn't really such an evasion, because there are two questions here . . . am I understanding you to be saying that if God gave you such a vision, you would take for granted that the ultimate end would be good, and worth the price, because this is your faith?
What does this vision need to contain (a similar question to my question of Pat, I see)? Does God need to justify to you why this immoral act will ultimately be for the good? Or just prove to you that it's really Him? (Though, how could He prove it was really Him and not some god-like evil being?)
The point where it seems to me you might be evading is this: is there any (theoretical) point at which an action and its consequences as you see them become so horrible that you reject your concept of God? A point where you say, "You may be all-powerful, but You're not good. No good God would ask that"?
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posted
To me, a God who asked it of me, wouldn't be a God worthy of my worship.
The series Hyperion expands on this question a ton.
To me, if a being who looked, sounded, and seemed like God in every way asked it of me, would more likely be Satan in disguise.
(not that I believe in Satan, but I would sooner believe in him than I God who would ask me to kill my son)
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
And a related question . . . is it a sin to admit that there is a point where your faith breaks down? To contemplate rebellion against God under even imposible circumstances? By asking these questions, am I potentially leading people into sin?
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posted
And another question: why do all the interesting conversations come up when I should be going to bed? What kind of God does not want me to get enough sleep?
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posted
This may only make sense if you are Mormon, but here goes: I don't know if I could have. But I think everyone who wants to be like God will someday have to.
That's why a lot of days I'm not sure if I want to become like God.
But as is always said, when God sent Jesus to die for us, it was on the order of sending a kid off to college for us. Because he knew it would work out for the betterment of all.
Maybe Abraham had this kind of faith. I mean, how many of us have wished the body didn't matter so much? The people could see what was really essential about a person?
That said, Mr. Squicky also has a very interesting idea.
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posted
It reminds me of Pastwatch, only in a more cosmic way, neh? Alternate revelation instead of alternate history! Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Starters, Icky, I don't think you're being rude at all.
quote:And thinking about it some more, I guess it isn't really such an evasion, because there are two questions here . . . am I understanding you to be saying that if God gave you such a vision, you would take for granted that the ultimate end would be good, and worth the price, because this is your faith?
Correct.
quote:What does this vision need to contain (a similar question to my question of Pat, I see)? Does God need to justify to you why this immoral act will ultimately be for the good? Or just prove to you that it's really Him? (Though, how could He prove it was really Him and not some god-like evil being?)
The point where it seems to me you might be evading is this: is there any (theoretical) point at which an action and its consequences as you see them become so horrible that you reject your concept of God? A point where you say, "You may be all-powerful, but You're not good. No good God would ask that"?
No, I guess there isn't, because if it was case ! (it wasn't God, but something pretending to be God well... that'll take a little more time to explain so let's go to case B first. No, I guess I would never say that God is too awful to humans to worship. Why? Because it would mean that the universe was created by someone whose entire purpose was to cause pain and suffering to His creations, and if this were the case, it wouldn't matter much what I would do, no one's going to end up happy.
What I'm saying is that, I could be wrong right now, in fact God could've given me my testimony of Him as a joke, that He is a kind, loving God, and shows this to me in this life enough that I believe Him (as I do). Then, once I die, He could say "Fool, I tricked you with my infinte power, I'm actually evil and I'm going to send you, and everyone else to a place than the worst Hell you can imagine for all eternity because that's who I am." This is techincally possible, but what a stupid thing to consider. Nothing can be done if that were the case, we're all screwed anyways so why bother even considering it? It gets you nothing and nowhere.
For case A, I would make sure it was God as I said. How can I be sure it's not the devil? Well I would purify myself as best I could, seek the council of those who are called to lead me (like my Bishop for example) and after thought and consideration, come to the concluesion about who it was that asked it, and once I make that choice, I will act on it. If it is God that is asking then I will do His will.
posted
If you're going to bring up pastwatch, how do we know the angel that stopped the sacrifice wasn't an "Angel of Light" (read: Satan)
Not that I believe this. It just could be argued equally well.
P.S. A thought from my days of Kierkegaard fandom was that Abraham had given up Ishmael for the sake of Sarah. That may have been the act that caused God to require this of Abraham. To see if Abraham loved God more than Sarah. It's not important to God to be loved more than Sarah. It's important to Abraham. Since Sarah had already shown that she didn't know how to run Abraham's life very effectively.
posted
I'm not sure about Pascal's wager, though I guess I can see the similarity. My question to you would be, if God were evil and nasty and had it in for us, do you honestly think you could do anything about it, or is it best to assume that since that scenario leads to no actuall solutions and only pain and suffering, you may as well act as if it isn't true?
posted
Short answer: if I were in Abraham's position, perhaps (50/50 chance, since I've always had faith problems). In today's world, no. The difference is that today's world is nothing like the world of Abraham, and so much has changed since that equating the question to the modern day is ludicrous.
Long answer tomorrow, if I get time to write it up. It includes social, personal, and religious historical perspective. This is the biggest problem with those trying to come to terms with the Old Testament, which reads more like a love-story-slash-oral-history than it does the fire-and-brimestone rap that it's earned.
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posted
Sorry Mack, as I was trying to explain, something as drastic as killing a person would require of me a heck of a lot more evidence that would say... swatting a fly. Things like the crusades resulted, in my opinion, from people not adequatly making sure that it was God ordering them to do these things. I'm not going to try to lay blaim at people feet, all I'm going to say is that if you instantly transported me as I am now (beliefs in tact thank-you ) I would not participate in the Crusades since I'm confident that God did not desire those things to happen, and I would find that out before I went.
I know what you're saying doesn't just apply to the crusades, but then, niether does what I just said.
posted
Hobbes, I thought one of the parts of LDS is that they don't believe that God is the creator of the universe but rather an object of creation that once was similar to our current state. Did I get that wrong? You seem to be referring to God as the creator.
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Icarus, If you look at it from a mythological archetype standpoint (that's not really what I mean, but I can't think of a better way to explain it), you could argue that my idea about this really sort of did work itself out that way on a societal scale. That is, people accepted the lessons of the story the way it was written and this acceptance became a pervaise foundation for the rest of their thinking. Their (and our) society took on a strong submission to authority aspect because they believed in the lessons of this story.
Had they accepted the alternate version to this story, where Abraham either tells God to go shove it or at least asks for a reason why he should do this, I think that they would have developed a lot differently and likewise would have conceived of their relationship to God (and other authorities) in a much different matter.
Of course, I'm coming at this from a quasi-Jungian guiding myth perspective, where the myths that people use to explain the world and their role in it have a strong effect on who they are and how they believe and act.
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posted
I was under the impression the basic point of that scenario was to illustrate the antitypical love God showed by sacrificing his own son, which he ultimately did not require even Abraham to do.
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posted
Thank you Hobbes, I think I am closer to understanding your views.
Even I, a crusty atheist, believe our free will was given to us as act of kindness. I guess "believe" is too strong a word. Hope is the better word I think.
quote:If God were evil and nasty and had it in for us, do you honestly think you could do anything about it?
*cues Mack's finger of god graphic*
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posted
Squick, we don't really expound on that a lot, but I guess it was in a different universe, or at least before the creation of our galaxy. But that relates to my post, about the idea of any of us becoming like God.
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