posted
Kama, if you want to deny the true history of Poland where people persecuted the Jews as much as any place on earth and stick to the selective history they teach you in school go ahead, but I'm not responsible for your ignorance.
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posted
nfl, to claim that Poland is still a hotbed of anti-semitism today as it was and was inspired and largely done by the Nazis during the Nazi occupation is not only sheer lunacy, but is insulting as hell. I think you owe several people appologies for making baseless generalizations that have whole-sale slandered Polish people at this board.
posted
And those from the Middle East. Look at his examples of individuals—all recent. If you would look at the basis for their crimes, it all had to do with the Israel-Palestine conflict. That they used religion to fan the fires of their hate is secondary, since: a) they were a vast minority, b) their own religions condemn what they do, and c) the argument using that falls deafeningly short when compared to the same application of logic to other religions.
nfl, just apologize and save face. You'll look smarter for it.
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posted
John, again you're displaying what has become blatant stupidity on the subject. Whether or not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the cause of current anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle East and Muslim nations is irrelevant. The point is, and I have clearly stated this repeatedly, that the Arab/Muslim world is the single greatest center of anti-Semitic senitment in the world. All you have done is to turn comments about one subject into comments about another with no warrant. You never respond to any of the points or example I do provide which makes this whole argument we are having now irrelevant. Either somehow show why it is revelant or acknowledge its lack of revelancy to the actual discussion and drop it already. Maybe you should admit for once when you've been beaten on a point and just leave.
Brian, Poland has been home to anti-Semitic sentiment well before the word Nazi ever came to being. Considering that I haven't generalized at all and have specifically noted at each point that it wasn't all Poles that were vicious racists I think you're the one whose accusations are "baseless."
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posted
In case you didn't know, nfl, Nazis considered Polish people as Easters, and so an inferior race too. Not as inferior as Jewish, but still. If you really feel like insulting a country because of his history, do it with France : Frenchs traited the Nazis far better than Polishs did.
[ April 20, 2004, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
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quote: However, there were still pogroms throughout Polish history and in fact so much hatred for Jews that for at least a time many Poles welcomed the Nazis with open arms
How many Polish people welcomed the Nazis with open arms? And I want very sound proof for that, too. If you cannot find an answer to my question, at least have enough gut to apologize. Otherwise, you will be quite rightly considered a troll.
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quote:John, again you're displaying what has become blatant stupidity on the subject.
And yet I can back up every single claim I've made with historical fact. Every "fact" you've tried to use has been grossly incorrect revisionist "history" (I use the term lightly, because it doesn't apply to reality). The "blatant stupidity" here is your own.
quote:Whether or not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the cause of current anti-Jewish sentiment in the Middle East and Muslim nations is irrelevant.
This is where you exit the realm of reality, because the basis for the Israel/Palestine conflict has everything to do with it. Arabs don't hate Jews, they want Israel, which they view as the West encroaching in on them, to leave them alone. It has nothing to do with religion, and it's not "anti-Jew" as much as it is "anti-West." Your inability to comprehend this is your fault in misunderstanding the situation.
quote:The point is, and I have clearly stated this repeatedly, that the Arab/Muslim world is the single greatest center of anti-Semitic senitment in the world.
Saying something repeatedly does not make it so. Instead, you decide to name names of those who have led minorities of Arabs against what is Israel, not Jews as a whole, for the distinct purpose of fighting against the Western influence that is inherent behind Israel (namely, US and Western European interests), not a religious war. Your inability to grasp this is a product of your ignorance.
quote:All you have done is to turn comments about one subject into comments about another with no warrant. You never respond to any of the points or example I do provide which makes this whole argument we are having now irrelevant.
I told you your hsitory was wrong, and I explained it. You then name-drop in the effort to show error in my statements, when those very names support what I've been saying all along—that it's not a religious persecution, not antisemitism, it is a struggle against Western influence that began in the 1910s with European imperialism in the Middle East. Your inability to provide any accurate historical data to show otherwise illuminates your ignorance to the subject.
quote:Either somehow show why it is revelant or acknowledge its lack of revelancy to the actual discussion and drop it already. Maybe you should admit for once when you've been beaten on a point and just leave.
Maybe you should stop hating Arabs and Poland so much for no reason, but I doubt you'll do that, either.
quote:Brian, Poland has been home to anti-Semitic sentiment well before the word Nazi ever came to being.
No, it hasn't, and you've provided no proof to show it. I and others have already explained that it was imperialist regimes from other nations who had invaded Poland who mistreated other cultures. In fact, outside of Catholics, Jews have had the highest population numbers in Poland. A great many scholars of the Holocaust and the era surrounding it regarding Jews have been Jews from—dun Dun DUN—Poland. And they make no reference to Poland being a "home to anti-semitic sentiment" in their writings, with Germany and Rome (the city) being at the main focus of their works. Kind of odd, since you claim that you have somekind of proof otherwise (and yet cannot back it up).
quote:Considering that I haven't generalized at all and have specifically noted at each point that it wasn't all Poles that were vicious racists I think you're the one whose accusations are "baseless."
No, those "baseless" accusations would be yours, since you can find no proof of antisemitic behavior in Poland outside of the incidents involving the actions of invading imperialist forces.
And as Anna and Kama have made clear, Poles themselves were not treated well by Nazis, which is why so many Polish Catholics were also killed in concentration camps. During the Nazi occupation, Polish Bishops and priests had the highest known number of falsified baptismal records to keep Jews alive and out of camps (the current pope was one of them at the time), even though Pius in Rome is recorded to have done very little, and the clerics in Germany actually encouraged enlistment into the Nazis. So, the Christians in Poland are well-known to have contributed to saving lives of Jews, where the Church either was silent or encouraged the hatred elsewhere. Your lack of understanding and basis in fact displays your ignorance more than I ever could alone. Your insulting tone towards Poland as a nation shows that you mean more insult than you are admitting to.
You need to take a chill pill and apologize, bub. I am someone who is studying in-depth the rough ride of Christian-Jewish relations over the years, with much recent research in the Holocaust, and I can assure you that if you want names of authors who back up what I say, feel free to ask. I'll even give you book references to further educate you to truth and fact instead of your baseless hate. I've been specifically holding off making a thread exploring some tragedies within the Catholic church regarding the Holocaust, because I'm now nervous you're going to twist that information and misrepresent fact in it, and I'm uncomfortable with knowingly contributing to hate. I'm all about accountability and frank and honest exploration of historical fact and context, but you seem to have a problem with selective hearing, reading, and understanding.
Just apologize, and all will be well. If you want books to look into, I'll be happy to provide them. Cut out the bullshit, though.
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posted
I hate doing other people's homework for them. I also think nfl is exaggerating some things, and being unnecessarily insulting and inflammatory.
However, so are John and Kama. You really want some links about Jewish history in Poland? Fine.
quote: The heritage of the war years was a particularly tragic one for Polish Jewry. The rebirth of Poland, which many Jews had hoped for, was accompanied by a campaign of terror directed by the Poles (as by the invading Russian army in the early years of the war) against them. The Jews too often found themselves caught between opposing armies—between the Poles and the Lithuanians in Vilna, between the Poles and the Ukrainians in Lvov, and between the Poles and the Bolsheviks during the war of 1920. And it is probably no accident that the two major pogroms of this period, in Lvov in 1918 and in Vilna in 1919, occurred in multi-national areas where national feelings reached their greatest heights. The triumph of Polish nationalism, far from leading to a rapprochement between Jews and Poles, created a legacy of bitterness which cast its shadow over the entire interwar period. For the Poles the war years proved that the Jews were "anti-Polish," "pro-Ukrainian," "pro-Bolshevik," etc. For the Jews the independence of Poland was associated with pogroms. The legal situation of the Jews in independent Poland was, on the surface, excellent. The Treaty of Versailles, concluded between the victorious powers and the new states, included provisions protecting the national rights of minorities; in the Polish treaty Jews were specifically promised their own schools and the Polish state promised to respect the Jewish Sabbath. The Polish constitution, too, declared that non-Poles would be allowed to foster their national traditions, and formally abolished all discrimination due to religious, racial, or national differences. The Jews were recognized by the state as a nationality, something the Zionists and other Jewish nationalists had long fought for. There were great hopes that the Jews would be allowed to develop their own national institutions on the basis of national autonomy.
These hopes were not fulfilled. The two cornerstones of Jewish autonomy—the school and the kehillah—were not allowed to develop freely. The state steadfastly refused to support Jewish schools, save for a relatively small number of elementary schools closed on Saturday which possessed little Jewish content. The Hebrew-language Tarbut schools, along with the Yiddish-language CYSHO network, were entirely dependent on Jewish support, and the diplomas issued by the Jewish high schools were not recognized by the Ministry of Education. The Jewish schools were successful as pedagogical institutions, but the absence of state support made it impossible for them to lay the foundation for a thriving Jewish national cultural life in Poland. As for the kehillah, projected by Jewish nationalists as the organ of Jewish national autonomy on the local level, it was kept in tight check by the government. While elections to the kehillah were made democratic, enabling all Jewish parties to participate on a basis of equality, the government constantly intervened to support its own candidates, usually those of the orthodox Agudat Israel. By the same token the government controlled the budgets of the kehillot. These institutions remained essentially what they had been in the preceding century, concerned above all with the religious life of the community.
Far from barring discrimination against non-Poles, the policy of the interwar Polish state was to promote the ethnic Polish element at the expense of the national minorities, and above all at the expense of the Jews, who were more vulnerable than the essentially peasant Slav groups. The tradition of numerus clausus was continued at the secondary school and university level, efforts were made to deprive the "Litvaks" of Polish citizenship, local authorities attempted to curb the use of Yiddish and Hebrew at public meetings, and the Polish electoral system clearly discriminated against all the minorities. All Jewish activities leading toward the advancement of Jewish national life in Poland were combatted; the government favored Zionism only insofar as it preached emigration to Erez Israel, and in domestic politics tended to support the traditional Orthodoxy of Agudat Israel.
quote: By the late 1930s the handwriting was clearly on the wall for Polish Jewry, though no one could foresee the horrors to come. The rise of Hitler in Germany was paralleled by the appearance of Fascist and semi-Fascist regimes in Eastern Europe, not excepting Poland. A new wave of pogroms erupted along with a renewed anti-Jewish boycott, condoned by the authorities. The Jewish parties were helpless in the face of this onslaught, especially as the disturbances in Erez Israel resulted in a drastic decline in aliyah.
Was this worse than the situation in Austria or Germany? Generally no. But claiming that there was not a LOT of Polish anti-Jewish sentiment is historic revisionism. And it went back to at least the 1600s.
quote: When the Ukrainians decided to throw the Poles out of their land, a full-scale massacres of Jews began.
The year 1635 saw the first big explosion of violence in Ukraine against Poles and Jews. But this attempt at the revolution was crushed. It returned with new vigor thirteen years later.
This second rebellion, in 1648, which succeeded in freeing Ukraine from Polish rule, was led by a Ukrainian Cossack named Bogdan Chmielnicki. In large measure it was directed at the Jews.
Chmielnicki was one of the biggest anti-Semites in human history, on par with Hitler. His aim was genocide and his forces murdered an estimated 100,000 Jews in the most horrendous ways.
quote: It's no wonder when Jews hear the word Cossack they break out in a sweat. These people killed 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 Jewish communities in the most brutal way one could imagine.
Yet to this day Chmielnicki is considered a nationalist hero in the Ukraine, where they regard him as a kind of "George Washington." In Kiev there is a big statue in the square erected in his honor.
quote: Despite such horror the Poles refused to give in or cooperate (there were no Polish collaborators as in other occupied countries). The Polish Underground or AK (Armia Krajowa or Home Army) was the largest in Europe with 400,000 men. The Jewish resistance movement was set up separately because of the problem of being imprisoned within the ghettos. Both these organisations caused great damage to the Nazi military machine. Many non-Jewish Poles saved the lives of thousands of Jews despite the fact that the penalty, if caught, was death (in fact, Poland was the only occupied nation where aiding Jews was punishable by death).
posted
Rivka, I am the first person here to agree that there were awful, awful things made by Polish people to the Jews. I will admit, even though it makes me very sad, that there are many people with anti-semitic sentiments. Jedwabne is still an open wound and will take years and years to heal.
However, this is not the first thread in which I and my country are insulted by nfl.
He says many Polish people welcomed the Nazis with open arms, because they hated Jews so much. How do you propose I react to this?
He says Poland is the most anti-semitic place in the world. is there a way he can measure it? Does he have any proof? How do I react to this?
This thread is not about proving that there were crimes committed by the Polish people. This thread is about nfl being a troll.
Rivka, I am very sorry that you think that I need those links you provided and that I do not know my history. I know it very well, contrary to what nfl claims.
I don't see how I am being insulting or inflammatory.
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
As I said, I think nfl is being offensive. And my links were more in response to John than to you.
As far as how to deal with slander, I would start by responding ONCE and then ignoring it. No point in feeding trolls. No need to have a thread that "calls him out" to defend the indefensible.
posted
*sigh* Yeah, I'm familiar with the problem.
And I know why you started the thread. However, that's not how it's being used this week (admittedly, not by you). And you have the ability to prevent that (by deleting the thread).
In any case, let me make it VERY clear that I do NOT agree with nfl's assessment of Poland's current environment (among other things I disagree with) -- and I have friends who have visited in the past 5 years.
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posted
(as an aside, we don't really like Chmielnicki over here; and the sentiment was beautifully described in a nostalgic-historical novel called "By Fire and Sword")
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posted
The book is a part of a trilogy by Henryk Sienkiewicz, consisting of three parts:
"Ogniem i mieczem" (by Fire ans Sword) "Potop" (Flood) "Pan Wołodyjowski"
It is very well-written, and has been translated into English (I'm not sure about the English titles though)
The trilogy deals with the times when the Republic of Poland was still a world power - starting with the Ukrainian uprising led by Chmielnicki, through the Swedish wars, to the war with Turkey.
All parts were filmed, with "Ogniem i Mieczem" as the most recent - due to the problematic issues with Ukraine that it raises.
(Btw, I would love to show the movie at Jatraquon).
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Rivka, The Deluge is on my buying list because of my aforementioned research. I don't recall if it still is, but it was banned literature in the Catholic Church in through most of the Cold War.
As for the other stuff, I'll address it when I get back home, but I do have to point out that with the exception of the WWII era, which was greatly influenced by two fronts (from the westerly direction—the Lutherian Church and the Catholic Church, as well as German "youth programs" set up to proselytize some specific propaganda), the instances in Poland's past have had to do with direct outside influences (or a specific church organization, which spread far beyond nationalism or political boundaries) when it came to the crimes against Jews in general. As with the rest of Eastern Europe, Poland does not have a snow-white past with regard to treatment of Jews, but nfl's statements are completely false, with only a minor basis in a revisionist historical view. In other words, he's creating an environment of victimhood where there is no need for one—there is plenty of evidence to show the blatant mistreatment of Jews going before the Common Era. Making these accusations about certain nations and regions of the world as dangerous to Jews—both in the past and today—is uncalled for and mis-applying history (and taking instances out of context).
Example: to date, Poland has the highest population of Jewish nationals of all Europe. Now, this was a problem before WWII, because religious segregationism was taking hold (Hitler took advantage of this), but during WWII itself, it was Catholic priests further away from the influence of Rome—like in Poland—where active resistance to Nazi occupation is recorded (and was sometimes discovered, often resulting in death of Polish Catholics).
I appreciate the links, though, because they give me more information about some specifics with Eastern European history. There's plenty Western European stuff, but most of the Eastern stuff is either difficult for me to get hold of (limited budget and lack of scholarly resources here) or needs to be translated (I know someone who has translated some German stuff, I just have to get him to let me borrow the texts).
posted
Please, no more Poland-bashing or anti-semitism arguing. I don't think the name Bin Laden has been mentioned this whole page of the thread. I think we have better things to do than point fingers at our European allies. I was not personally very happy when Spain pulled their troops, but it's their blood, not ours. Let's focus on *what's* wrong, not *who's* wrong.
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posted
Coke is better than Pepsi. If Bin Laden would come to understand this simple fact the world would be at peace. Then we could all link arms and sing that sappy song about giving the world a coke.
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posted
John, try just shutting up. You manage to continuously quote me and every time ignore what I actually said or take what I said out of context. You still haven't responded to my most emphasized points about the irrelevancy of your arguments despite quoting passages where I mentioned it. That doesn't even resemble debating. Furthermore, again the cause of Arab/Muslim hatred of Jews does not matter within the realm of the debate because we are only discussing its existence, not how to get rid of it.
Again, I never said all Poles or all Arabs, but have at every point qualified my points by saying it was only some, a significant minority, but a minority. Just because there are a lot of Jews in Poland and the Middle East does not mean that anti-Semitism doesn't exist in those places.
Kama, you ask how you are supposed to react to the fact that Poland is the most anti-Semitic place in the world outside of the Muslim/Arab world. You should react by accepting that your country like all others is not primarily populated by saints. I would react in the same way if an African were to say he was uncomfortable visiting the U.S. because it has a long history of slavery and state sponsored racism. He might also add that although neither of those things exist today many Americans are still racist and acts of hate still occur today. While I might feel he would have nothing to worry about because such incidents are rare, he would be well within his rights to continue to feel uncomfortable about a visit. In the same way Poland has a long history of, if not slavery, then what could certainly be called state sponsored racism and currently has existing if not greatly reduced racism. This is why I do not necessarily feel comfortable traveling to Poland. Insulting your country would be me claiming that Poles are inferior human beings and I would never myself be in the company of one. That would be insulting and if I were to say such a thing I would deserve to be kicked off this forum and then some. To go further you should react to the statement that many Poles initially welcomed the Nazis in the same way that I would react to that same African saying that many Americans owned slaves. I would be sad that that is indeed the truth, but I am also forced to accept it as fact. You may not like it but the Jewish people have been used as a scapegoat throughout European history. Some country has to be worst, I didn't create a thread to start condemning Poland on this forum, but since Poland was the country in question regarding my potential trip I felt I needed to make my reasons clear for me personally feeling doubtful about a trip. Finally, you claim you don't need those sites Rivka provided, then explain why you denied those very things I accused Poland of because I didn't provide links of my own?
The only point I have tried to make in this thread or Raia's is that I personally don't necessarily feel comfortable making a trip to Poland even if Rivka's friends have visited Poland in recent years. I'm sorry that I offended anyone, but the truth can do that sometimes.
Yank, I'm not the one who sidetracked from bin Laden. I was only making the point that maybe bin Laden wasn't that stupid knowing the nature and history of European appeasement. It was Kama and John that decided to call me out on my feelings expressed in another thread. I hope we're done with this now because I'm willing to drop it so long as the others are.
Back onto the conversation, I think very simply what's wrong is giving into terrorist demands.
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posted
So, in other words, you're not going to present any documentation of any sort to back up your claims, and tell people saying they will to just shut up?
Isn't nfl a Cedo-nym? Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:I would be sad that that is indeed the truth, but I am also forced to accept it as fact.
Why? By what basis? Because you say so? You've made numerous claims that have been called into question, and offered zero rebuttal other than variations on the, "I said so, it's a fact," theme.
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