quote:Jon is, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (which I think he is), then I think Wylla (Jon's wet nurse and presumably Lyanna's midwife) would know the truth, as I assume she would've been present at the Tower of Joy during the birth.
We know that Rhaegar raped Lyanna so, at the very least, Jon could be the progeny. I think that he is of Rhaegar and Lyanna and that Lyanna made Ned promise to love him as his own to protect Jon.
I believe that Ned had sex with someone while he was away from Cat, but I never get the feeling that his love for Robert was ever mixed with jealousy over Lyanna. And he didn't seem to feel at odds with his Gods, which I'd think would have happened if he were battling with the guilt of incest.
I think that Cat's unreasonable hatred of Jon is one clue we get that she'll fall/fail. It proves that she is shallow and puts her own pride above the needs of the family. It is a flaw that Sansa shares.
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Another thought: Though they tell us that Rhaegar raped Lyanna, It seems out of character with everything else I recall about Rhaegar. At one point, when Dany is trying to keep a woman from being raped, Jorah mentions that she is just like Rhaegar.
Also, I don't think that Ned would have had as much sympathy for the Children of House Targaryen if he didn't have a personal stake in believing that they weren't all evil.
Here's my far flung theory: Rhaegar saw something in his scrolls that told him that he had to join the forces of fire and ice to defeat The Others and save humanity. Lyanna and Rhaegar made love, rather than rape.
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I think they were pretty clear that she had been raped. Remember that all The Taryganens(sp) were touched by madness.
As far as I remember (and I just reread them last week ) Lysa killed her husband, with Littlefingers help. Cersi killed Robert by having Lancel poison his wine before the boar hunt. Or at least she was worried that Lancel would squeal, even though she was sleeping with him. She thought it would be best if Lancel died of his wounds, that much I remember for sure, because she was afraid that he would talk.
quote: I think the chapter where the Reed kids tell Bran the story about the Mystery Knight and so on tells the story pretty clearly
I have a theory about that story, too. The Mystery Knight wasn't Howlad Reed, it was Eddard Stark. Reed wanted to fight, according to the story, but he knew he didn't joust well, and it wasn't his kind of fight. But Reed was a Stark bannerman, and the Starks were dismayed at how he had been treated. So Eddard, who at the time was a youth....small in stature, like Reed, but with the means and training to fight on their own ground....went into the tourney to defend Reed's honor, and the honor of the Starks.
This explains why Jojen was surprised that Eddard had never told his children that story, and explains why the mystery knight was never found. Eddard might have done this, and left it open to interpretation on purpose.
It explains why he hates tourneys so much, because of what happened to Lyenna there, and why he would have agreed to hide the child of the rape....because he felt responsible. He had left the tourney, and Rhagar had won it, and all that followed was in part (at least in his own mind) his fault for not staying and winning the whole shebang.
It also explains why he would be willing to compromise his own honor by claiming the bastard (Jon) was his own....because he really felt responsible for what had happened.
The rules of this discussion were that we weren't to discuss anything that hasn't been published yet,because someone here had read some of GRRM's drafts (or something like that).
The chapter that appeared in the back of book 3 is fair game, as far as i can tell. It has been published, and every copy of ASOS that was sold in the US (overseas too, I think) has it in the back....so it is fair game.
Several of us have already mentioned it, I believe, so Elizabeth shouldn't have to delete her post about it...even though it appears to me that she has already done so.
Too bad, I would have liked to hear what she said about it....
quote:I think they were pretty clear that she had been raped. Remember that all The Taryganens(sp) were touched by madness.
Of course they're (they, being Brandon, Rickard, and Robert) going to think she was raped. I doubt Robert's ego could've let him believe any differently. But Lyanna crying over Rhaegar's sad song (I wonder which one it was) at the feast and Rhaegar crowning her queen of beauty at the tourney make for more of a love story than a rape story.
quote:Cersi killed Robert by having Lancel poison his wine before the boar hunt.
She didn't poison it, just made sure Lancel had Robert's favorite and lots of it.
quote:I have a theory about that story, too. The Mystery Knight wasn't Howlad Reed, it was Eddard Stark.
Ned wasn't small of stature at all. He was 18, no? And only a year or two away from killing Arthur Dayne. I think he was already grown. It seemed obvious to me that it was Lyanna Stark.
The mystery knight then disappeared from the tournament, and Rhaegar was sent by Aerys to find "him" ("he's no friend of mine."). I think he did, to the delight of both parties.
quote:It also explains why he would be willing to compromise his own honor by claiming the bastard (Jon) was his own....because he really felt responsible for what had happened.
I think he compromises it for the dying wish of his sister and his desire not to see Jon killed by a raging Robert. We all got to see how Robert treated the remaining Targaryen seed (Rhaenys and Aegon), and both Ned and Lyanna would rather Jon wasn't murdered.
The big question on my mind is whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. Polygamy and incest weren't shunned by Targaryens at all, but I'm not sure if that would've concerned Rhaegar at all if his goal was merely to father the child whose song is that of Ice and Fire.
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quote:But Lyanna crying over Rhaegar's sad song (I wonder which one it was) at the feast
"The Bear And The Maiden Fair."
On everything else, of course, you're 100% right on. Broken clocks...
By the way, what's Dany's parentage? For some reason I have a persistent belief she's not full-blooded Targ, but damn if I can remember who her parents were.
And send me that story, geek.
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Jaime has just had his hand lopped-off, and we're learning more and more about why he was named the "King Slayer". He is still boastful and arrogant, heedless and agressive, yet we can see his humanity because we get to hear his inner voice that tells us why he acts as he does.
No matter what the final action, we afford the character pity and empathy if he can justify his actions to himself.
Is this always so? Is it good to empathize with a child abuser and one so driven by his blood-lust that all else is expendible?
For me, the beauty of this series is that each main character gets to write their own perspective. Each decides whether he/she is to be the "Monster or the Maiden".
Tyrian is almost a twin to his brother in many respects, but he is, so far, driven by motives greater than his own personal profit. I get the feeling that if Tyrian finds love for himself in the promise that Tysha truly loved him, then he will be a hero. If he learns true self loathing, he'll become the villain.
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I think Tyrion will become more villainous, and Jaime will find some sort of redemption. The scene where jaime tells him the truth about his first wife, I think, was a crucial turning point for both characters.
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I agree that it was very important, but I hesitate to make any sort of perdiction about the futures of this series. It changes too much book to book, which is one of the things that i like about it.
I don't think Lyannna was then Mystery Knight, we have heard nothing about her being a warrior before this, and that sort of detail wouldn't have been overlooked by Robert, who loved war better than peace.
I also think that Eddard wouldn't lie about if his sister had been raped, and he would never risked the well being of the realm unless he was sure.
Eddard was about 16 when the great tourney was held, and he might have been able to pass as the Mystery Knight....but it could have been someone we haven't even met yet. That is why I am really looking forward to "meeting" Howland Reed in future books...if they ever get written, that is....
I just thought it was a good theory, as it gave a good reason Eddard hated tourneys so much later in life. Also, even if it turns out to have been someone else, it is still the sort of think he would do for one of his bannermen if he felt they had been misused.
I have a question.....when Arya got lost in the castle after running away from Tomman (and knocking him down) she overheard a conversation between two men who were discussing the war, and what to do about Eddard Stark. Do we know who they were? I think it was fairly clear that one was Varys by his bulk, but they refer to the other one as a sorcerer of some sort....
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The other one was...damn, the name is slipping my mind. In any case, he's the merchant who harbored Dany and her brother, and set up the sale of Dany to Drogo.
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Ok, there are three heads of the dragon. Dany is one and Jon is another. Does this mean that there's a third Targaryen running around? If so, who?
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I've read people speculating that it's Tyrion, but for me it's *way* too early to call that one.
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Theory on Azhor Azhai: Jon Snow, he will wake the dragons of dragonstone or find an egg in the north
Theory on Jon Snows Marital Status: he and Daenery's
Theory on destruction of Others and Undead: Dragon fire wipes out the undead, Valyrian steel as well as dragonglass can kill others. they are always sayiing everytime they talk about it that its magic, spell forged, etc.
Theory on Dance of Dragons: This takes place after Jon and Daenerys Wed, both Jon and Daenery's will die in the war.
Theory on Coldhands: Catelyn Stark
Theory on Mormont: He will kill Bran, at the beginning of the Dance of Dragons, to take away jons Right Hand man
Theory on Horn of Winter: It is a strong possibility that Benjen Starks horn is the horn of winter, but if not, Bran finds it.
Theory on Tywin: Becomes a hero in the end
Theory on Littlefinger: Joins with the Grevjoys, is betrayed, killed by Theons sister
Theory on Stallion that Will Mount the World: The Child of Daenerys and Jon, after Dance, Mounts the world.
[ August 10, 2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Rhaegar The Fool ]
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The Horn of Winter was already found, by Jon -- I think Sam's toting it around nowadays, but it's been a while since I read the books. Stupid Martin and stupid delays and he'd better live long enough to finish the series or he'll have me to answer to...
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And, er, Tywin's dead. If you mean Tyrion, he's always been a hero to me. That's, sigh, true love...
Littlefinger's not going anywhere. He's the only one with any real power -- he's the only one who Varys doesn't understand or manipulate. He had Arryn killed, he's Lord of the Eyrie and Harrenhal, key in securing the South's security, I don't think he'll be killed by anyone -- except, probably inevitably, by Sansa.
How could Coldhands be Catelyn? Eddie suggested it's Benjen Stark, a theory I'm digging.
Mormont will kill Bran to cripple Jon? Nobody knows Bran's at the Wall except a very select few, the Old Bear's dead, and Jonah Mormont has no idea who Jon is or any reason to want him or his brother dead. How'd you come to this conclusion?
Azhor Azhai, however it's spelled, is Daenarys. I don't see how it can be anyone else -- the prophecy fits her perfectly, from what little I can remember.
I'm not sure if Valyrian steel can kill Others -- it may be spell-forged, but I don't remember anything that suggests the swords themselves are magical. Ice was melted down and reforged -- does that mean it's lost its newfound ability to kill Others?
I don't see Jon and Dany dying, but I guess anything's possible.
Does anyone remember Daenerys' parentage? Her mother died giving birth, and her father was the Mad King, but damn if I can remember who her mother was. Was she a Targ? I know the House had started importing wives, what with Rhaegar and Elia of Dorne, but...
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I think that Valyrian steel could very well kill Others. Apparently, obsidian blades can do it because the rock is created from lava, over a long period of time, under incredible heat and pressure. Though it might be cold, it embodies fire.
A blade made of steel that has been folded into itself again and again in the hottest forges in the world, using a lost form of magic to bind them and make them stronger ... yeah, under the same reasoning, such a blade could embody fire just as well as obsidian.
Dany HAS to be Azhor Ahai (or whatever). The forging of her weapon lines up, the red comet appeared at the time of her rise to power, and I'm sorry, I don't see Jon Snow doing anything as impressive as waking three dragons on a loved one's funeral pyre.
I have no idea who Coldhands is. I wouldn't be too surprised if it's Benjen Stark, but at the same time, I'd be even less surprised if it's someone else Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Dany HAS to be Azhor Ahai (or whatever). The forging of her weapon lines up
What weapon is that? The Dragons? Or did i miss something?
I think Valarian steel will be effective against at least some of the cold walkers, and even when reforged it kept it's properties. remember how there was only one smith who remembered all the rituals and chants to reforge it, and he is the one who took Ice and turned it into two swords.
If Coldhands was Benjen Stark (which would be cool) wouldn't Bran have reconized him?
quote: Nobody knows Bran's at the Wall except a very select few
Bran isn't at the Wall, he passed through it on his way to the Northlands beyond the wall.
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When Sam makes mention that though the dragon blades may kill the Others, but it doesn't mean that they'll kill the wights, it made me wonder about Gilly's son.
We know that the wights are the dead come back as zombies, but how do the Others multiply. So far, we've only seen male Others.
Is it possible that the majority of the Others are Craster's sons?
I wonder if victory against the Others is somehow linked not only to fire and The Lord of Light, but Craster's spared son who is kin to the Others?
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There were always tales of babynapping where the Others were concerned; I believe that Nan threatened Bran with that in her tales. I believe that the others MAY have something to do with that, and perhaps all the children of the crows from the whores in the town below. There is probably more than one reason the crows are suppose to be celibate....
I think the conflict will be too soon for Crastor son to have a big part in it....other than the huge part he had in making Sam Tarley DO something other than hide in fear. Without him, Sam wouldn't have been there to open the Black gate (one very cool part of the series!) for Bran to get through, and that may well be the difference between winning and losing the coming war.
Having Bran trained by Coldhands and friends is key.....
quote:What weapon is that? The Dragons? Or did i miss something?
I've heard the idea thrown about (possibly in this thread) that the legend of the forging of Lightbringer parallels Dany's hatching of the dragons — ie, she attempts to hatch them at first through more conventional means, but fails until she sacrifices her spouse in the process.
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Im sorry but Jon has to be Azhor Azhai. He is the prince who was denied his kingdom, he weilds the blade of fire, if my theory on Valyrian steel is correct, it all fits.
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That's if we're lucky. If we're unlucky, he'll have a heart attack sometime soon, and Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson will somehow aquire the rights to the books. They'll write a bunch of crappy books about the meeting of the first men and the Andals, and then eventually get around to butchering the end of Martin's series.
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quote: Azhor Azhai, however it's spelled, is Daenarys. I don't see how it can be anyone else -- the prophecy fits her perfectly, from what little I can remember.
quote: Im sorry but Jon has to be Azhor Azhai. He is the prince who was denied his kingdom, he weilds the blade of fire, if my theory on Valyrian steel is correct, it all fits.
I just re-read the series recently, and I was fairly convinced that it was Beric Dondarrion.
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quote: That's if we're lucky. If we're unlucky, he'll have a heart attack sometime soon, and Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson will somehow aquire the rights to the books. They'll write a bunch of crappy books about the meeting of the first men and the Andals, and then eventually get around to butchering the end of Martin's series.
How does Kevin Anderson get his meat hooks into these lucrative series? (Dune, Star Wars). My twelve year old sister writes better books than he does.
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posted August 12, 2004 12:29 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Im sorry but Jon has to be Azhor Azhai. He is the prince who was denied his kingdom, he wields the blade of fire, if my theory on Valyrian steel is correct, it all fits. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well Rhagear, you should write Martin and tell him...that way he will "get it right" too....
Valerian steel doesn't shed heat, while dragon fire is nothing but.....
Or did you miss what Magister Aemon had to say about Stannis Barethon's sword?
.. . . . . I think Berric isn't him, because he currently doesn't fit into the rest of the criteria without some "creative wording"....but that is what prophesies do, so I might be wrong.
I do think Thoros is coming back into his own, and will have a very important role to play in future books, doing what Messlindre is doing for Stannis but in a proper fashion....perhaps anointing the true Azor Azhi reborn later in the series, if that isn't just a HUGE smokescreen Martin is using to misdirect us yet again...
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Does anyone think we might get to see Asshai? The Bloodmages, and spellcasters? Casue that would rock out.
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Theory on Hodor aka Walder Ok, seeing as all he ever says is Hodor, and no one knows why, and he was born on the first day of a winter, I think he is the key to something in the far north, possibly "Hodor" is some kindof password or phrase to get somewhere, or something, i dunno,IO just thought of it like half an hour ago.
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quote:I don't think Lyannna was then Mystery Knight, we have heard nothing about her being a warrior before this, and that sort of detail wouldn't have been overlooked by Robert, who loved war better than peace.
I also think that Eddard wouldn't lie about if his sister had been raped, and he would never risked the well being of the realm unless he was sure.
A: We've heard plenty of her being a warrior. Ned mentioned that she would've carried a sword if his father had let her...someone mentions that Arya rides like her aunt (when she nearly escapes), and Lyanna beat the crap out of three squires with a practice sword. During Jojen's story, Benjen actually offers to find Lyanna some armor (though GRRM made it look like Benjen was talking to Howland).
B: Ned never lies about the rape, just doesn't disagree when Robert refers to it. Is there any good way or reason for Ned to tell Robert that the woman he loved went willingly to Rhaegar? We know Lyanna at least told Ned that she wasn't in love with Robert, and that she knew Robert would never change his ways. But Ned didn't tell Robert that part, either.
C: Ned didn't risk the well being of the kingdom at all. He joined the war later, after his brother and father had been murdered. But I think at the time, Brandon and Rickard probably did think she had been kidnapped (not raped yet). Only at the ToJ did Ned find out for sure, I think.
I maintain that Lyanna went willingly to Rhaegar after he found her fleeing the tourney where she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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