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Author Topic: OSC feedback
PSI Teleport
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See, I don't actually ever have a need to say anything negative about Card's writing. It's like...okay here goes:

I really love Ferrero Rocher chocolates. (Sorry, no accents.) They are pretty much a sublime experience. If I really tried I'm sure I could find something I don't like about them (like that fact that they go straight to my hips!) but really, it's the experience that counts. Picking out one thing you don't like is silly compared to the overall deliciousness of the rocher. So there maybe one or two things in Card's work that I don't agree with or something, but I feel like he's one of the best writers I've read, and his books do things for me that others don't do. So who cares about that other stuff?

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Altįriėl of Dorthonion
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That's true, you have to be honest, but constructive. Its a matter of being true to yourself and those areound you. Personally, I don't feel anything wrong with OSC's writting. I devour it eagerly... [Wink]
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fallow
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Bob,

I'm at a bit of a loss here. I think I've minded myself pretty well for the most part, other than a regrettable episode of name-calling (along with other regrettable posts of dunderkind nature).

Maybe I should put my previous opinion in the context of what I read from Card, now. Exclusively his opinion reviews and war/world/civilization watch. From those readings, I stand by my comments and I don't see it rude or mannerless. That's what I read. Anger. Irritation of some sort at every turn. Hyper-criticality regarding the world we live in.

Maybe I'm reading too much into a print-personae or something.

fallow

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Kwea
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I think that he is critical of the world we live in, but that is why he is motivated to write those columns. I enjoy reading them, but he has pissed me off a few time.
But I don't come here to complain about it. If I do complain about something here, I hope I am tactful about it, and I don't expect people here to agree with me about the criticim.

I don't really see this as his house; it's a forum, and the purpose of a forum is public discussion. It's not much of a discussion if everyone agrees with everything he says. Mr Card is an adult, and I believe he is thick-skinned enough to withstand criticism; but this isn't the best place for it. This is a fan site, clearly, and most of the posters (myself included) care more about what Mr. Card had to say than what others have to say. He is a great writer, and even if I don't agree with his view, I love to read it because it is usually very well written.

So have some manners, and don't be surprised if people here become a little protective of the Cards if you criticize them. It would be really easy for the Cards to post sarcastic observations on all of our posts, but they don't. If they have a problem with something that is written in here, they are always polite, at least to my knowledge. Why is it so hard to do the same while we are guests here?

Kwea

[ April 22, 2004, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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Richard Berg
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Well said, Kwea. When I run forums anything goes so long as you obey netiquette. I know OSC has been online long enough to recognize the value in both halves of that statement.
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Kwea
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Well, coming from member # 133, .....thanks!

Again, that wasn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just something that has come up three or four times in the 3 years I've been here, and I don't know why...

Seems pretty self-evident to me...

Kwea

[ April 22, 2004, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]

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fallow
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who's complaining?

This is a public forum for discussing OSC? Discussion includes criticism?

fallow

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Kwea
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Of specific points, not of his overall character. And only in a polite way. If you (or anyone) isn't a fan, at least a little, then why come here to criticise?
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Stan the man
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Kwea has a point. An excellent one. The original post that started this thread tho wasn't criticizing OSC overall. He just said he didn't like one of his books. He didn't say that OSC was a bad author. In this sense I can't understand why he was slammed for it.
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fallow
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have you read my posts (the intelligible ones)?

I'm just eager for OSC to kick the [edit]-kick he's on and get back to some challenging insightful stories. Not that he's run out of gas or anything, but I think the this right-side-o-Rooney schtick he's on is a wee bit premature.

fallow

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Hobbes
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Personally I just want to see Kristine's "official smackdown". Would it be wrong to sell tickets?

*Imagines Kristine as a Mormon super-hero, laid back, Jello supplier in spandex*

Werid.

Hobbes [Smile]

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fallow
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hobbes,

did you just use jello and spandex in the same sentence?

definitely not nummy. no no no nummy there.

fallow

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Kwea
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[ROFL]

That's just wrong!!!

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Bob_Scopatz
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Actually, fallow, I think it'd be at least a good idea if posts about OSC were in the other forum, not the general interest one. So your point about this being a forum for discussing OSC and his works is really incorrect since there's separate place for that.

However, that's not nearly so big a deal as the point you appear to be missing. There's a big difference between critique and criticism. And empty or worse, malicious, personal attacks are unwelcome by anyone, not just creative people. And it's doubly bad when you do it in a place that the person PAYS FOR!!!
[Eek!]

I know you think this is a free speech zone and the free means you should be allowed to say anything you want. That's up to our hosts, though. They own this space and they pay for its continued existence.

And again, I say, if you have something constructive to say, I'd have no problem. But so far you've just been belittling our host. I just think you'd have the sense to take it elsewhere. That's all. You're cretainly entitled to your opinion, but you have the precisely WRONG model for what Hatrack is. And because of that, you are acting in a rude and unwelcome manner.

Think
"I'm a guest." Think "I'm in their home." And then decide what you should and shouldn't say here at Hatrack.

I doubt OSC is really worried about your opinion or is actually hurt by it. But you are making me cringe in embarassment on your behalf. If this were an actual home, I would've already taken you outside and explained the situation to you. Since it's a virtual world, I can't do that.

But you are being an absolute ass and I think you need to stop.

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Megachirops
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quote:
*Imagines Kristine as a Mormon super-hero, laid back, Jello supplier in spandex*

Much as I don't want to bump this thread, I just had to say: [Eek!]

-Icarus [No No]

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Hobbes
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That's right. Hobbes get's even werider at night. [Wave]

Hobbes [Smile]

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Megachirops
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I think we've all entered the Twilight Zone tonight.

-Icarus [No No]

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Hobbes
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Why'd you go back to that login Icky? I like the orginal. [Frown]

Hobbes [Smile]

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Megachirops
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I was in the mood for something different.

-Icarus [No No]

[ April 22, 2004, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]

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fallow
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Bob,

I haven't been able to sit down all day.

What I don't understand about your lecture is this guest-host thing? Fallow's been an ass all around as far as I can recall (intentional or accidental). If your analogy held and I were the host, I would have taken fallow's rotten self outside a long time ago for interacting the way he seems to do with the other guests. As host, I wouldn't wait for one of my other guests to take up that burden. So, I'm not sure that analogy is altogether accurate.

I don't have a model for Hatrack, so it can't be wrong or right, much less precisely.

I understand the difference between criticism and critique, and, although I thought anyone familiar with my posts would understand my lack of tact, that is apparently not the case, as your criticism informs me.

Also, I DO appreciate the good things here. That's an insult to presume I don't.

In any case, I do have a tendency to get carried away and you have my thanks for 1) keeping fallow honest and 2) addressing your concern's about fallow to me directly.

*tip-o-the-hat*

fallow

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imogen
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quote:
Why'd you go back to that login Icky? I like the orginal
Dontcha mean Licky?

Unless of course, we're talking about the *real* and somewhat more elusive landmark-avoiding Icarus...

imogen [Mad]

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Kwea
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It's cool, fallow. I haven't seen whatever started all this up again, nor do I wish to, but it isn't the first time this issue has come up here, that's all. So of the people here have been posting here so long (or often) that they feel as if this their home too, if not in the same way.

You can have whatever opinion you want, and you don't need my permission to do so, of course. I don't expect you to agree with everything I post either, and I would think you were sick if you did [Evil] ....but I enjoy talking with you here, most of the time, and I don't think it is unreasonable to expect better of you than this.

Just because you say you lack tact doesn't mean it's OK to be rude. I like this place because people here, for the most part, aren't rude. Most of us feel comfortable here, and like having differing opinions present, as it gives rise to some very thought provoking discussions.

I've never had a problem with you, and you usually aren't rude to me (at least not to my face [Taunt] ). I just think you need to be a little more careful choosing your moments...

Kwea

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fallow
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KWEA,

what does it stand for? Kiss-Which-Ever-Ass is available?

Shall I submit my posts "of the moment" for your perusal before posting?

(actually, I happily would, as they'd most likely make more sense in the end)

fallow

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Kwea
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I don't have an answer for you...I don't know any words small enough for you to comprehend.

I say what I want, just like you do...but I don't need to make insipid comments in a vain attempt to make myself look better.

I can't fathom why you are here, other than to troll....and I won't bother to reply to you again, as you are not worth the effort I have already expended.

Best of luck here, for the little time you have left. You obviously need it.

Kwea

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Bob_Scopatz
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fallow,

you know I've enjoyed your existential, free-form posts in some of the other threads.

I don't really have a huge problem with you.

You either get it or you don't. I can't force you to pretend you care, let alone actually care. If you don't care, you don't care.

If you do care, you'll modify your behavior. If you don't, you won't.

It's not my place to enforce the rules here. It's not my place to presume to teach you anything, either. I posted because I didn't like what you said or how you said it. Clearly kacard & Kathy Kidd are the real arbiters of your Hatrack fate. Not me.

I'm not going to blow the whistle on your posts in this thread. You might consider, however, sending an e-mail yourself to kacard with a sample of your posts about OSC and ask her if she has a problem with it as moderator of the board.

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fallow
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Kwea,

That last post of mine was a joke. Where did I go wrong in communicating that to you?

fallow

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Kwea
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Well, it didn't seem that way....in that case I owe you an apology.

I thought we got along pretty well, which is why I was offended. It is hard to tell at times when you are being flippent or serious, fallow.

I'm sorry I jumped all over you like that, if you were just kidding. I was trying to not be offensive, particularily to you, and so I felt blindsided. It can be hard when you are new here and someone who has been here a while disagrees with you, so I WAS trying to be polite. But don't ever think that I won't stand up for myself if I feel I'm being ambushed, and I don't kiss ass, ever. If I agree with someone, then I agree, but I make up my own mind...I always have.

I can't be all bad...I DID make up the goodnight thread, right? And I even use it, once and a while.... [Big Grin]

Kwea

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fallow
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Bob,

quote:
you know I've enjoyed your existential, free-form posts in some of the other threads.

You have? Where? (no doubt I missed it) Mutual expressions of enjoyment go a long way in mutual communication. (and I DO appreciate the direct address of concerns, judgements, and the like)

quote:
If you do care, you'll modify your behavior. If you don't, you won't.
I do care. (though I'm a little lost on your authority to judge how I exhibit that caringness, particularly with respect to your previous post).

fallow

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fallow
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Kwea,

I thought you were being funny. I tried to respond in kind... thinking you might enjoy a ramp-up of "zingers". I was wrong.

Yes, and I do like the hello/goodnight thread.

[Roll Eyes]

fallow

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Kwea
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I'm tired, and sick still....and I was being a little tongue in cheek...

I should have given you the benefit of the doubt, I guess.

Enough said, as far as I'm concerned, I'll try not to jump the gun next time.... [Taunt]

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fallow
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*ka-pow, ka-blam, ka-blooie*

where's that thread?

fallow

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kacard
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You guys know I post rarely -- because I'm not the writer in the family [Smile] But I feel like some of you have been expecting some kind of "smackdown" or at least clarification of the host/moderator view on this.

One thing OSC cares deeply about is the importance of community-building and how that is done in a positive way. We have tried not to impose our opinions on this forum, but rather set up the ground rules of civil discourse that we expect. I've used the living room analogy a lot myself. Mostly, those who care about Hatrack help newcomers understand what is expected, and there is no need for the mods to do anything. (Though, I'm sure most of you notice that there are those whose learning curves seem to be very very long -- I've been pleased with the patience I've seen.)

No one has ever been banned or censured for the opinions they express. As long as they stick to explaining and supporting their opinions -- not name-calling or character assassination or psycho-analyzing those with a different opinion. (Well I take that back, early on we banned someone for advocating an action that was so far over the line of human decency that it could not exist in a forum based on compassionate human discourse -- no don't ask me, I'm not saying what it was -- but that is something altogether different.)

I have appreciated the thoughts expressed by many of you here about what kind of feedback and discussion is appropriate, so I don't have much to add to that.

BUT -- there is one important point that MUST be clarified. This forum is not about being careful of how we disagree with the host -- it is about being careful about how we discuss and disagree with EVERYBODY!!!

We expect respectful discourse no matter WHOSE books, opinions, choices, taste, philosophy of life, religion, or whatever you are discussing.

So -- thanks for the kind words from so many of you, thanks for helping those new to the community learn what kind of place this is.

Kristine

P.S. Bob -- so glad you finally figured out every single OSC character is based on you. Aretee -- sorry you never hear us say just before you walk up "Remember not to recognize Aretee, or she'll stop coming back." Hobbes -- nobody at this house eats jello. [Smile] (edited to add a smiley face for Hobbes)

[ April 23, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: kacard ]

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Hobbes
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Headlines read: "Kristine smacks down Hobbes's world view, poor, innocent tiger may never recover"

[Grumble]

Hobbes [Smile]

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PSI Teleport
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quote:
Jello supplier in spandex
See, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see this as someone wearing spandex and supplying Jell-O. I kept seeing it as someone with a Jell-O supplier in their spandex. And that was just WAY wrong.
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Ela
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quote:
BUT -- there is one important point that MUST be clarified. This forum is not about being careful of how we disagree with the host -- it is about being careful about how we discuss and disagree with EVERYBODY!!!

We expect respectful discourse no matter WHOSE books, opinions, choices, taste, philosophy of life, religion, or whatever you are discussing.

So -- thanks for the kind words from so many of you, thanks for helping those new to the community learn what kind of place this is.

One of the many reasons why I love this place. Thanks for making it possible for us to meet here. [Big Grin]
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fallow
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kristine,

Thanks. Muchos gracias, and domo arigato.

[Hail]

If I could offer up a small comment (something I've advocated in my previous posts - that musta gotten lost in the chaotropism) - entering into this forum is a bit of a gauntlet (counts chalk marks on the wall). I don't really see why it should be that way. Not having met most (99.9999%) of the folks here, my perspective on the forum is about the same as it was 5 days into posting. (that is a critique, not a criticism)

I really like the idea of a welcoming thread (one that is maintained). A meet-'n'-greet thread. That would take some tedious time commitment. [Dont Know]

anyhow. On with the nonsense!

fallow

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TomDavidson
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"my perspective on the forum is about the same as it was 5 days into posting"

This, fallow, is because you're tiresomely self-absorbed; you operate entirely in a universe of your own devising, in a world you've constructed completely within your head.

You've often commented that you think of this place as fictional, and its inhabitants -- including yourself -- as unreal personas.

[ April 23, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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fallow
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TD,

I thought tiresome self-absorption was the bread and butter of this forum? Far be it from me to deviate!

*licks self*

fallow

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fallow
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^flippant^

Seriously, though, TD. What's with the out-of-the-woodwork commentary?

fallow

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TomDavidson
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Frankly, I'm starting to find you boring. You play a few too many deliberate mind games, and troll more than a little too often. And you can only blink your eyes innocently and say "who, me?" so many times before I stop giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I think you know perfectly well what you mean to say, and I think you know perfectly well when you're being inflammatory, hurtful, snarky, or callow. But I think you've gotten away with it by keeping your tone light, cryptic, and occasionally baffled. Sooner or later, though, you're going to have to decide whether you want to become emotionally invested in this place or whether you're just going to continue to treat us like rats in your imaginary maze.

Honestly, I've thought of you for some time as a somewhat more literate version of want2write.

[ April 24, 2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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fallow
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TD,

The bottom line is that at the end of the day, from soup to nuts, whether you like my fictious leveraging or not, I frankly don't give a darn.

(except as a flippancy op)

fallow

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TomDavidson
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"I frankly don't give a darn."

Oh, I know. That was my original point, in fact; that's PRECISELY why you're no closer to understanding this forum or the people who post here than you were on your first post.

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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
Bob -- so glad you finally figured out every single OSC character is based on you.
Okay, I'm having that one embroidered on a pillow or something.

[Big Grin]

kacard, you know, the neatest thing is that you just managed to tell us all off and praise us at the same time. I need to learn how to do that. You are one of those people to whom it always pays to attend.

[ April 24, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]

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Scott R
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Can you two go squabble elsewhere?

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the fact that Mikhail and Bob_Scopatz are the same person, and you're distracting me.

Shoo.

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Scott R
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Oh no. The Keeper of the Earth and Bob_Scopatz are the. . . same. . . person.

[Eek!]

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Elizabeth
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Is this true, Scott? I am so out of it.
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Scott R
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Hey, everyone raves about kacard-- all I know is that above, she definitely said:

quote:
Bob -- so glad you finally figured out every single OSC character is based on you.
I think that's pretty conclusive.
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Elizabeth
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Oh, dear, I was on a whole other tangent, thinking they were screen names.
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Elizabeth
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Wait, wait. Does that mean that Bob is The Hive Queen????
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Scott R
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Holy crap, IT DOES!
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