posted
I'm not saying it's illegal, just saying that it's wrong and works produced that way usually suck.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
I'm afraid we'll have to disagree, then. The movie works for me, despite the changes (and there are a lot more than just missing gods and Achilles in the horse; the entire 10 year war got squashed down to two weeks, for instance). Obviously it won't for you, and there's no sense in trying to convince you it will.
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posted
Hey, it might not, I really liked Ben Hur style movies with massive battle scenes, I just hope it's not one big Brad Pitt-athon with half the movie consisting of drawn out shots of him.
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posted
He's onscreen a lot, I can't deny it. But Peter O'Toole, Eric Bana, and Sean Bean made the movie for me.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:I'm not saying it's illegal, just saying that it's wrong and works produced that way usually suck.
Sure, I didn't think you were arguing that it should be a criminal offence or anything.
So what is your opinion of works such as Euripides' Hecuba, or Helen, or Andromache, or The Trojan Women?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
No, Brian's right, unoriginal stories suck. Like that Shakespeare guy? Total hack. He didn't come up with of those stories himself, and he had the gall to pretend that some of them were based on real events. Like any of them could compare to the original folk tales / history. They're all total crap in my opinion. No wonder we don't know if it was him, his wife or Sir Francis Bacon who wrote those pieces of trash. I know I wouldn't want my name associated with those cheap, campy rip-offs.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Seriously, Brian, what do you think of Euripides' work, and that fact that virtually none of his major characters were original to his plays? Was it wrong of him to do this, to employ characters and settings that his audience was familiar with, and use them to examine contemporary politics, ethical thought, and the like?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Author's whim probably. Could be that the translator thought that the audience would be more familiar with the character by his Roman name. Could be that the Big Book of Myths the translator marveled over as a tiny child called him Ulysses, and in their heart, the character will always be "Ulysses" to them.
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posted
I've always had kind of a toxic reaction to the Roman names for Greek gods and other mythological figures, and I'm pretty sure it's because my childhood Big Book of Myths used the Greek names.
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Scene opens with a young Helen, a overly busty sweet innocent blonde. She sings of the horrible plight it is to be beautiful when all she wants is to be known for her intelligence and good heart.
Animals sing with her.
Her father dcrees that she is to wed, but that all suitors must promise not to kidnap her, and to go to war against anyone who kidnaps her.
Chorus of valiant Greeks (looking awfully pail skinned) declaring their vows and talking of Helen's beauty.
Cut Scene, Marriage of Theytis and what's his name. Gods are all present.
In comes evil Discord. She rants about not being invited, then sneaks the Golden Apple into the center of the room.
The Goddesses fight. Zeus stops them and asks if there is not a better way to solve this problem.
Hades suggests the hansome Paris should solve it.
Paris is an evil old man who is full of evil plots and evil magic. He is a coconspirator with Hades. He wants Helen. When the goddess appear before him he breaks into a song, "What's in it for me."
World dominoin holds appeal. Conquest holds appeal, but his lust for Helen wins him over to Aphrodite.
Helen, meanwhile, has found true love with Menaleus. Menaleus is not an overly strong warrior lad. He is bright and sensitive.
He talks to Helen, discussing things. They do puzzles together. He like her for her brain.
They go off into the valley where they can dance with the animals together. The sing a love song written and performed by Elton John.
At its end a dark cloud covers the field and evil Paris steals Helen away.
Menaleus is perplexed. Hera tells him that she's been stolen and sent wisked away to Troy. Menaleus goes to the other suitors, still upset that they did not win Fair Helen.
He tells them of her abduction.
They don't care.
Then he reminds them of their pledge.
Achillies joins Menaleus in his vow to bring her back. One by one the others join too in a musical number calling back to thier earlier pledge, and with personal reasons such as "Sacking RIch Troy" and "Honor of my people" and "Helen's beautiful eyes."
They sail off. While Menaleus tries to lead them, Agamenom, and old blustering wind bag, ignores him and leads.
They land.
Paris, meanwhile, calls upon his family to defend themselves from the bloodthirsty invaders. Greeks bearing swords, he warns, are invading.
He hides Helen.
King Priam is not in this film. There are too many characters as it is.
Instead, his brother, King Hector leads Troy. Hector, is a not very bright big man. He leads the men out to fight.
For twenty long days the fight goes on.
Achillies, the greatest Greek warrior, gets upset when Agamenom boasts and blunders. He threatens to go home.
His friend Menaleus is wounded by Hector (Patracolous was just too many people for the kids to follow). He is brought back to the tents to recover.
This angers Achillies and he storms out to fight. Wise Ulysese, who has been offering vague clues and hints the whole time, binds Menaleus's wounds.
"If one man were to enter Troy, and free Helen, then we could end this war. Where can I find a boy brave enough?" He asks.
"I will go" Menaleus jumps up at the idea.
"Good lad. I have built a wooden horse. It is fantastical. It will jump over the walls of Troy and hide amongst King Hector's toys. You must climb in and wait until dark."
Wounded Menaleus recovers immiediately and climbs in.
Meanwhile the war goes well for Achillies and the Greeks. Finally, king Hector meets him on the battlefield.
They fight.
In the background a wooden horse jumps over the wall.
It is a close battle, but finally, Hector's sword is knocked from his hand and he surrenders.
(what, you expect him to die? This is Disney!)
He is carried away in chains.
A band of Trojan's come out to ask for his release. Agamenom considers it, but Achillies refuses. It would just lengthen the war.
Paris calls the band back, and declares Hector dead. He declares himself the new king of Troy. The walls will hold. They party all night long.
Menaleus spends all night looking for Helen. Only when he hears her singing does he find her. By then the sun is rising.
The start to sneak out of Troy when the get trapped on the wall.
A band of Trojans are calling on the Greeks. They want to talk peace with Achillies.
Achillies steps out--with Hector, to show the people of Troy that Paris is bad.
From out of hiding on the wall, Paris fires his bow, hitting Achillies in the ankle.
Achillies falls, and tries to crawl away.
Paris aims again. "This one will stop you for ever!" he shouts in glea. "And the next one goes into the heart of my stupid brother."
But he doesn't know that Menaleus and Helen are hiding near him. Seeing the life of his friend about to end Menaleus rushes Paris.
A fight ensues.
Paris accidently falls from the walls, impaled on one of his own misfired arrows.
Peace is restored.
Helen and Menaleus live happilly ever after with their new friend, the wooden horse.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Something I find interesting is that trying to take the Gods out of Troy is like taking God out of the Exodus. Just imagine someone trying to tell that story in the "real" way without religion. I don't think it would float.
Something I always thought was the coolest was that the survivors of Troy went on into the west and became the Romans. Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Thank you oh Tree of Valinor! That was exactly the comparisson I was looking for. The gods are so central to and driving of the plot that it makes no sense without them.
posted
Brian? Seriously, what do you think of works like Euripides' plays? If you consider them acceptible, what do you think the difference is between ancient and modern authors' use of mythic figures as characters in their stories?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Well, as I'm not Christian I wouldn't have a problem with the story of the exodus of the Jewish people from Egypt told without visible sign of God's involvement, either (as opposed to the peoples' belief in God and his support). I somehow doubt it would do very well in the theaters, though...
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posted
I think the Exodus would be a less compelling story. There are explanations (lust, jealousy, pride) for all the actions of the humans in the Trojan War. In the Exodus, I don't think it's possible to have a Prince run into the desert and return a changed man without some mystical explanation.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Actually, kat, I disagree. I could imagine a plausible non-divine source for his shift, and I think it'd be a pretty good story.
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posted
What is it? I could imagine an enlightenment concerning justice and democrasy, but considering the time and place, that would still be a mystical experience.
I think it works in Troy because while the gods were meddling, the players didn't really object too much - what they were being manipulated to do was what their natures wanted to do when engaging in a superfluity of naughtiness.
I'm really interested. What natural desires would lead Moses to return to his homeland? I guess there is the Rescuing-his-people part, but if you consider that it looks like he knew all along they were his people, why the change of heart?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
There's a non-mythical reason that a greek army more than quintipling the size of their opponents took more than a decade to lay seige to merely a walled city near an accessible beach? Uh, NO. Without the gods, it doesn't make sense that the Trojans were able to hold out as long as they did, especially given all the glorification of the various greek heroes and generals.
posted
Let us not forget The Simpson's take on it from "Tales in the Public Domain".
Ron and I took the boys (and their uncle Mark) to a Greek Festival this weekend. Robert loved the traditional dances and the singing, Liam loved running around the columns outside the Greek Orthodox church, Ron loved tne food. I'm never sure whether Mark likes anything, he's so quiet. Anyway, there were lots of short, swarthy handsome men wandering around. It made me wonder if anyboy would 'buy' Costas Mandylor as Achilles.
Western Civilization does owe a great debt to the Greeks. The rich Mythology and forms of comedy, tragedy and the epic adventure (yeah, there's Gilgamesh, but the Greek culture spread farther... which was largely because of the Romans... but anyway). And don't forget wonderful things like spanekopeta (sp?) which my son still pronounces 'spank-a-taco' for some reason. Ron is fond of Uzo, though I think it's kinda nasty. *shudder*
posted
If you come up with any thoughts in response to my questions, Brian, I'd love to hear them.
Kat--well, I don't have something plotted out myself, but there would be a couple of ways to play it. He could finally see something in some of the slaves' behavior that echos in his mind, and brings about an emotional rather than intellectual understanding that these are his people. It could be a political move--perhaps his true goal, at least at first, isn't the liberation of the Israelites. Maybe he's trying to gain control over the slaves in order to advance a faction in a behind-the-throne battle for dominance. Or it could be that he is insane, and while he does kill the overseer, it has nothing to do with helping the Israelites. Aaron or Mirriam or somebody sees the possibilities of the situation, though, and is skilled enough a leader to be the true power behind Moses; he's just a figure head.
All of these stories would be pretty different from the Exodus account, but all of them could be fairly interesting, I think.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Hmmm... it could work, but I don't think it works easily. The heart of the problem is that the main character undergoes a drastic transformation with no visible cause. The solution is to have it happen without God (the enlightenment theory - which still takes on religious tones), or else to invent subplots and backstory to expand the story.
Troy is both a battle between gods using the humans as pawns, and a battle between the humans. The story of the Exodus is the resolution of the conflict between God and the humans. Taking out God takes out half the notes in the melody instead of the under and overtones.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I seriously doubt a revelation concerning democract would be the thing to get Moses back to Egypt, since its not even really considered that he was trying to create a democracy by freeing the Israelites. As far as I know, he would hae been fine with a righteous Monarchy or (even batter) a theocracy. But as to why he would go back to Egypt without God...
Perhaps it's because as a boy, he viewed his people the way the Egyptians did, as others. When he was in the desert, living among these "others" he began to have a greater respect and connection to them. Over a long period of time (indicated by a montage of him looking toward Egypt across the desert while he is tending sheep, foraging, etc.) he comes to the realization that he is in a unique position to help them, those who he now views as human beings. So he does, no burning bush or anything.
Even so, I think the line should be drawn at turning the characters into functional atheists. The camera doesn't have to believe in the gods or God, so it doesn't have to show them. But in both stories, people whose actions were motivated by gods should still clearly have belief and faith in those gods. It just makes more sense that way.
Posts: 894 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I never saw the Iliad as two battles, that between the gods and that between the people. I always saw it as a battle between the human pawns and the godly masters set in the context of a War. Despite doing as they were told, how they were told, and facing impossible demands of conflicting gods, the humans on the whole manage to achieve a glory and nobility that their gods can not.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Since when have Christians had problems with the gods in the Iliad? In our past, the Christians often advocated study of the Iliad, because it embodied values they wanted their children to have. The gods were pagan, yes, but that wasn't a worry to the Christian parents who had their children studying this work.
Since when has our society been so wussy as to blame not showing gods on one religious group's sensibilities?
Hasn't stopped them from showing a lot of other things...
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I seriously doubt fear of Christian sensibilities had anything to do with the decision to leave the gods out of Troy. Take a look at Hollywood's track record on the subject, for one.
So, according to Livvy and OSC, there's lots of tasty manflesh available in this film? *perks up*
Is it a good date film to take your husband to? My hubby likes action, historical stuff, and sci-fi films. Would he like this? He also appreciates any hot female nudity.
Posts: 3141 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
More female nudity than male (the sides of Achilles' tent warmers and Helen's bottom) but lots of oiled male thighs. Lots. Tens of thousands.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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For those of you who are upset that the Trojan's lose, don't forget Aenas.
This other son of Priam takes the survivors on a Oddysean-like journey, landing in Carthage where he beds the queen, but leaves her to die so he can found his empire.
They then land in Rome, where they rape the Sabine women and start all the glory that is Rome.
Rome comes back and kicks Greek butt so hard that they still are recovering.
The Aenid--Chapter III in the Trojan Trilogy (Illiad, Oddyseus, Aenid). Buy them together cause paper is cheaper by the ton.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Over a long period of time (indicated by a montage of him looking toward Egypt across the desert while he is tending sheep, foraging, etc.) he comes to the realization that he is in a unique position to help them
*thinks* This is still the key transformation. In this version, it happens, but still with no visible reason. It's the enlightenment theory. Now, that could be very true and possible (for an example, see Buddha), but I don't see it making for a good story or drama.
Great. Now it's going to bug me. *hands on hips* How to drastically change a heart without altering the entire story and without mentioning God?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
So the wonders are generated by lots and lots of hebrew pranksters, in this God-less version of exodus?
:sniffs: I went all of 2003 three without seeing any R-rated movies except when my husband rented Matrix reloaded. What will it make me if I bend my rule to see "Troy" and not "Passion of the Christ"?
As for revisionism, anyone who complains about the story changes is trumpetting their own ignorance. In addition to Euripides, Hesiod and Aescylus had vastly different versions of all of Greek mythology from Homer. The purpose of myth in their culture was not to establish a canon to dictate morality like we have in our Judeo-Christian dominated society.
"Troy" is actually a pretty good translation of "The Illiad" as Illium was an ancient name for Troy.
Dan, I think your story would be well served with how Zeus woos Helen's mother in the form of a swan and Helen and her twin sister actually hatch from large eggs.
Despite my classics training, I have to admit that "Hercules" was one of my favorite Disney flicks.
As an aside, I saw the mask of Menelaus when it was being temporarily displayed in Athens. I'm wallow in my specialness.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:You know, there are those of us who believe it happens all the time.
Well, yeah, but it's not cinematic. Barring the cartoon light bulb, how do you show a realization? Even including God as a presence, it's hard to show without the burning bush. For example, God's Army.
posted
I like "Zounds" or "Eegads" as a signal that the speaker is about to impart revealed knowledge.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:*thinks* This is still the key transformation. In this version, it happens, but still with no visible reason. It's the enlightenment theory. Now, that could be very true and possible (for an example, see Buddha), but I don't see it making for a good story or drama.
Tsk... tsk... I think kat has forgotten the cinematic genius of Little Buddha with Keanu "Whoa" Reeves as Siddhartha.
As for Troy, I enjoyed it. Okay... that's a bit of an understatement. I enjoyed the acting. I enjoyed the costumes, or lack thereof. *coughBradPitt'singuinalcanalcough* I liked the story. I thought it worked the way it was adapted. I didn't mind the lack mentioning of the gods and goddesses or the missing characters because I think the writer, the actors, and the director captured the spirit of the story. Heck, I even enjoyed the music even though it did remind me of the dirge music in Xena: The Warrior Princess.
[spoiler]And then there was that once scene where they light the fires on the beach and roll the straw balls down the hills to catch fire. All I could think was, "Rolling balls of death... rolling balls of death" like some weird Monty Python skit.[/spoiler]
Oooo.... and you know.... if Hillary Duff is in the Disney version of Troy than Lindsay Lohan is gonna have to be in The Odyssey as the voice of Penelope. And, Odysseus will be voiced by none other than... wait for it..... Justin Timberlake. Ta da.
Phew... did I get everything. Probably not. Oh well.
Posts: 822 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Hey Andrea! This one acquaintance of mine posted some stills from Troy with the caption "So. Much. Leg." Quite funny.
My squeals of revelation usually take the the form of uvulating screams, not unlike those a person might utter upon finding a pine beetle scuttling up their ankle.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Gosh, I find some of the arguments here completely absurd.
Basically, mythology arises from oral history and people's general lack of a better explanation. Not from ACTUAL gods actually doing things. Criminy people!!! The events probably took place. The several-thousand year old explanations for those events, written well after the events, with an eye towards telling an engaging yarn to while away the summer nights while tending sheep???? Well, my money's on human inventive story telling.
I no more think a lack of gods and goddesses diminishes the story of Troy than I think that Apollo makes the sun race across the sky. C'mon folks. It's a great story, told well. If it lacks the pious insertions that Homer sprinkled in to please a patron, play to a particular audience (or avoid the thought police of his day) should we care? I certainly don't.
Now, as for the story of the Exodus, I believe there's a way to tell it without God's involvement, but that would certainly cast a taint on Moses and his motivation. Here's the deal. He was the 2nd son and very ambitious. Got tired of being reminded that he wasn't really Egyptian by birth (stay with me here...he was taunted by the other kids...not treated like an equal, etc.). So, in a huff, he runs away from home. Meets up with a crazy old man who makes him waste his life away working like a dog to earn the right to marry the daughter he fell in love with. Goes a little batty himself.
But remembers that there's like this HUGE ass army of slaves, to whom he is supposedly related (if the taunts are true). And he's ready to come into his own. He knows his brother is a superstitious idiot. Knows the jews are also very superstitious. Decides, hey, what've I got to lose?
Goes to his brother and demands his half of the kingdom.
Ha!
I'll take the jewish slaves away if you don't.
Yeah, right!
I will.
Go ahead, they're a big pain in the @ss anyway.
Then Pharoah's advisors remind him that Egypt has a slave economy and allowing his non-Egyptian brother to take the jews away will ruin the place. He gives chase.
It doesn't work out.
The jews escape.
Moses realizes he's got a fractious bunch of people on his hands. Decides religion is the only way to control them.
Runs up the mountain and carves a bunch of rules on a rock. Carries it down and lords it over the people, like the true megalomaniac he is. Appoints his brother as head clergy. Then sets up a religious government. Borrowing heavily from Hammurabi along the way. Dissent is death, by the way...
Next they wander around looking for a place to settle (i.e., take over). They manage to make it to the Jordan after years of just being lost.
Then, Moses dies and the people say "screw it, were staying here. Enough of this Nomadic nonsense. Give me a home where the buffalo roam... etc."
And there they parked.
Over time, Moses is revised in the local mythology until he is seen as basically one step below God and the great leader. Stories of his miraculous feats crowd out the truth about him. Eventually, every child learns at their father's knee the story of the great prophet Moses and all that God did for his chosen people. Then a few hundred years later, somebody writes it all down.
It makes a pretty boring movie. And without the intervention of God and the larger-than-life Moses, it would've made lousy stories to while away the hours tending sheep. There's those sheep again!!!
The sun is driven by Hyperion and his super flaming horses. If you were the god of an element, would you actually do the daily gruntwork? Artemis actually drove the moon, and that's why she died a virgin. Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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