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Who here has read it. if you haven't, click here.
What are your thoughts if any on it. what qualms do you have with it, what do you agree with or support about it. i'm interested in your feedback.
on a related note, i was talking to a friend earlier on AIM and she was arguing that Luther's translation (while it may not be his translation but a translation made before him) of the third commandment changed the meaning of said commandment. the Murder versus Kill argument...discussion got pretty heated.
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okay, i'm going to dinner and don't know when i will check again, but WHEN I DO i expect to have food for thought waiting for me in here, by golly!
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I believe that his heart was in the right place and God was definately with him. But I do not think he got it quite right. His focus was too much on what was wrong with the catholic church and not on what the bible was actually calling for. Not to say that he was wrong. He was right, he just didn't follow through on it enough.
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Consubstantiation (i cant remember who, but somebody months ago corrected me when i used the wrong terminology and claimed we believed in transubstantiation. the correct term CONsubstantiation eluded me at that minute).
we Believe it is the blood and body, and not merely symbolic but we also recognize it to be bread and wine.
*in response to a question poised in the explanation of the Small Catechism printed by Concordia (hey ELCA has to goto MLS for some things published. i know, it hurts me too).
quote: The bread and wine in the Sacrament are Christ's body and blood by sacramental union. By the power of His word, Christ gives His body and blood in, with, and under the consecrated bread and wine. 1 Cor. 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
(by the way, i never made it to dinner. still in the lab, and very hungry)
[ July 13, 2004, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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No. It is a belief in consubstantiation -- that the body and blood are truly present with, around, and under the bread and wine, which are still present.
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We believe that the bread and wine (unfermented wine in our case, which is to say, grape juice) convey the body and blood, but the manner by which they do so is unknown.
I'm comfortable using the term "real presence" for that, but not every UM clergy/theologian is.
Edit to add: some say that what is conveyed is the "virtue" rather than the "actual" body and blood.
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since this seemed to have taken a turn towards the Lords Supper as its current discussion, i direct you all here.Posts: 1572 | Registered: Jan 2004
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aha, i see dkw. i knew that, but i was unclear what other churches subscribed too. so in looking it up i found the site posted above. woohoo!
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Well, a great deal of protestant churches view it as memorial.
quote:Our Lord Jesus Christ, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread and when He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to the disciples and said: "Take eat; this is My body, which is given for you. This do in remembrance of Me." In the same way also He took the cup after supper, and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them, saying: "Drink of it, all of you; this cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you for the forgiveness of sins. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
This passage of scripture, quoted by Luther, is the same one all of my previous Assemblies of God pastors had quoted upon the distribution of the 'communion' elements. And they all believed it to be Memorial, with no 'real presence'.
I guess I wasn't aware that con/ and trans/ substantiation (as well as those other beliefs of a 'real presence') doctrines were widely held outside of Catholicism. Learn something new everyday.
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Ah, nostalgia! I have a friend who was a student at Luther Seminary and I helped coach her though the Bible Tutor linked on that site. It was a requirement before you could start second year.
The UMC is an offshoot of the Anglican church, so we'd fit most closely with the "English" paragraph.
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Ben, are you looking for a detailed examination? I'll do it, but I can't guarantee it'd be pretty....
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any thoughts or observations. i want to hear from people. however you wish to present is up to you.
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quote:We believe that the bread and wine (unfermented wine in our case, which is to say, grape juice) convey the body and blood, but the manner by which they do so is unknown.
Does this mean Methodists specifically disbelieve transubstantiation and consubstantiation, or that the unknown manner may be one of these?
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Transubstantiation is specifically not believed, according to the Articles of Religion of the Methodist church, which, along with the Confession of Faith of the Evangelical United Brethren Church, were adopted as doctrinal standards when the United Methodist Church was formed by the merger of those two denominations.
(The Articles were adapted by Wesley from the Articles of Faith of the Anglican Church, which go back to the English Reformation and tend to have a bit of anti-Roman rhetoric still in them.)
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To begin with, keep in mind that I come from a church that doesn't formally recognize any creed (even the Apostles') or make use of any regular catechism. So obviously I'm coming from a strange perspective. I can see the use of having something regular when dealing with mostly illiterate or not-too-bright people, but in general I'd think that with the reasonably intelligent a less rote method would make people think more about what they learned.
I could easily turn this into a laundry list of things in the catechism that I just don't agree with, but I'll refrain, as that would be rather beside the point...
I won't comment on the Creed itself, but I am always bemused by people claiming that we lack the power even for belief. It's always seemed to me that while Christ's coming to redeem us is special grace, our ability to receive him is common grace that we have had since the creation, simply a part of free will. But I'm not surprised to hear Luther say otherwise.
Conversely, the section on baptism is amusing and gratifying, but doesn't sound all that consistent with a practice of sprinkling. The thought, if not the exact wording, could come right out of one of Campbell's books.
Confession always puzzles me. The practice of my church has always been that one confesses to the person offended (given the possibility of doing so). Confessing to a third party seems odd.
What is it that bothers you about the memorialist view of the Lord's Supper? I've never seen any more reason to believe Jesus was being literal when he said "this is my body" than he was when he said "I am the vine". Can you explain, perhaps?
I suppose that's all for now.
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quote:Confession always puzzles me. The practice of my church has always been that one confesses to the person offended (given the possibility of doing so). Confessing to a third party seems odd.
Confession is best viewed as third party assisting in the act of asking forgiveness from God. In the Catholic Church's view, these third parties were commissioned by Christ, or by Christ's commissioned representatives on Earth. Every priest has been ordained by a Bishop who can trace his ordaination back to Christ. Confession, more properly called reconciliation, is the act of removing the separation from God caused by sin. This is where the term original sin comes from - people are born separated from God due to the fall.
Confessing to the wronged party is often necessary, as well, but that in and of itself does not obviate the need to close the gap with God. One of the most shocking things Christ did was forgive sins not committed against him.
quote: Confessing to the wronged party is often necessary, as well, but that in and of itself does not obviate the need to close the gap with God. One of the most shocking things Christ did was forgive sins not committed against him.
Dag, to make it clear--I also believe we're supposed to confess to God, but that's done directly, through prayer. I see what you're saying, though.
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as far as confession goes. for me its between me and God. in the ELCA, we can option for a private mediator if we need, but in my life i never have. its a rarity in at least my branch of the Lutheran church but the pastor will privately mediate if you request it. but we do have confession during the service every sunday. but its a moment of reflection fo us to offer up our prayers to God about guilts burdening our hearts.
[ July 14, 2004, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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It's an incredibly empowering experience to confess in front of a third person. It's hard to explain if you've never done it, but I reccomend it, especially for things you're reluctant to confess or, more likely, stop doing.
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A few weeks ago i staffed a camp called AFFIRM. it's exclusively for Youth in the Southeastern Synod of the ELCA. (it's lutheran through and through, a fundamentalist would likely feel very foreign in response to the theology taught), anyhow there was a n excercise that i oversaw which is where the youth (in my unit there were 48 youth, groups of 6) would sit in hteir group silently in front of a board that alreadyhad written sins of things they felt guilty of and were burdening their hearts. They were encouraged to pray for those burdens already written and any that were personally burdening them, and as they saw fit they were welcomed and encouraged to get up and write those on the board. It was hte most disciplined and emotional i saw most of those kids act the entire week. THe other staffers in my unit weren't privileged to seeing this or experiencing this as they were working at their own stations (it was an afternoon dealy as the groups went to different stations in the unit). The kids were genuinely moved by what they were seeing written and being asked to do. and i was amazed at how many kids got up in front of hte group to write down things they were burdened with guilt over. it's not like the other kids in the group werent watching and those that were could easily look up and see what was new on the board that hadnt been there before. I know that it brought these kids closer as i observed them after that excercise and through the rest of the week.
a couple of days after the excercise some of the kids told me how amazed they werea the courage of some people (they were not aware of who wrote it as they were not in the same small group) who wrote some pretty heavy stuff up there (these kids were 14 and 15 year olds) and how they admired their courage as the kids i was speaking with claimed they wouldn't have been able to fess up to this or that.
I would like to say that i could get up and share for all the world to see that which i feel guilty about just like those kids did, but in all honesty, im not sure i could. so i can vouch from a spectators point of view for the power of confessing in front of a third party can bring as Dag's above post.
i jsut rambled, i hope that makes sense. (Damn, i love parantheses.)
[ July 14, 2004, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
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As a matter of fact, things like that are sometimes practiced in churches of Christ, too., though not in the most conservative areas. (I met my first serious girlfriend that way, in a one-on-one confession thing at a retreat. I was puzzled for quite a while, though; I didn't know she saw me that way.)
I find, though, that most often the things confessed are innocuous even though the experience did have a certain teeth-chattering sort of power vibe.
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