posted
Who has read it? What can you tell me about it?
I only heard about the series for the first time from my sister last night. I am interested in hearing some of the thoughts of Hatrack, rather than going to read the reviews of anonymous people I know nothing about.
I am intrigued, but not sure if I want to read it. I understand it is very contraversial, but also amazingly well written and engaging, and seems to present a view of morality that runs opposite to the morality I personally believe in. Kind-of an anti-beverly-morality, if you will. (So if I read it, will the books and I both explode into oblivion?)
posted
It's a well-written and imaginative series with a seriously and deliberately blasphemous premise -- which shouldn't bother you unless you make the mistake of assuming that the universe in which this book occurs is ruled by the same God as ours.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
I know the series really bothered my sister (though she couldn't put it down either), and I am trying to decide if I would feel the same way or if I would enjoy it.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It bothered me a lot. The religious aspects, the choices that were made, the ending, all bugged me. I'm always amazed that people love the series. I think I read that author's previous books and just found them a bit boring.
Oh, and isn't that series read by a lot of kids? I didn't like that aspect either.
I NEVER dislike a fiction book based on its religious concepts. That usually doesn't bother me at all. This was a first for me.
posted
It is pretty heretical, though the heresy isn't very pronounced until the 3rd book... it's not written from an atheist point of view -- there ARE spiritual beings in the universe -- but it's a very heretical view of what those spiritual beings are... and it's a very anarchist view of the church (i.e., just about all church figures are shown to be corrupt and their beliefs invalid).
I've heard that the books have been optioned as movies, which I find hard to believe. If they're true to the books, I think a lot of movie theatres will get burned down.
The 3rd book is the weakest -- too wordy, yet also too rushed. He should've written an extra book.
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
One thing my sister told me about was the girl main character asking her oracle thingy if she could trust the boy she is hanging out with. It says, "He is a murderer" and her response to this is "Oh good, I can trust him then."
HOW MESSED IS THAT?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
I thought the way that Pullman ended the series was more amusing than blasphemous (hilariously New Agey to put it one way). But then again, I'm a Mormon so I'm on the sidelines of his little skirmish with Christianity (specifically Catholicism -- or at least that's the way I read it).
It's a pity. The world(s) and characters he created are wonderful. But in the end, it's kind of like how some people feel about OSC and his thing with psychology, etc.
Still. I'd say the books are worth reading.
Posts: 3423 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's really sad. Very beautifully written, but sad, I sobbed through the night the first time I finished it...but then I read it again...and again... Satyagraha
Posts: 359 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I found the first book to be a work of absolute genius. Brilliant writing, including subtle, well worked exposition, intriguing ideas, involving characters that I really fell in love with; basically, everything I look for in a novel. The second book struck me as being of much lower quality, and served primarily as a bridge linking the first and third books, getting some necessary stuff out of the way. The third book was better than the second, but not nearly as good as the first. Definitely worth reading though. I'd recommend the series, taking into mind what Tom has already said. The author does seem to have a chip on his shoulder about Catholicism that is approximately the size of Rhode Island. That's small for a state, but as shoulder chips go, it's pretty freaking huge.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I need to read the third one again. I'm intimately familiar with the first two, and thought they were really good when I was *thinks hard*...fifteen (the target audience, I suppose. Heck, I was a burned-out Goblet of Fire reader when it came out).
I thought the idea was pretty good, but it was pretty obvious that this guy had beef with organized religion. I just separated my own beliefs from his and read it simply for the story. I survived it relatively unscathed .
Read the Sally Lockhart series. I still pull those out. The Ruby in the Smoke is first.
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I really liked the Dark Materials book, in particular the first one. I have to agree with the muppet...in fact, I will go further and say I love the Sally Lockhart books more than the Dark Materials books. There is no fantasy elements to it but it plays up a nifty view of Victorian London and tells fun pot-boiler mysteries to boot. Also can be very sad with a real heavy edge to it at times.
On the "Pullman obviously has a beef with the church" bit...why do people assume he does? If someone writes a book with a lead character who is a revenge killer out to avenge the death of his family by killing more and more...does that mean the author condones killing? Or revenge? Are these the same people that assume that because Rowling writes books about magic then she MUST believe in witchcraft?? Yeesh. Just because it is critical of religion doesn't mean it is an absolute treatise on his beliefs. Sheesh. Who on here ISN'T critical of other religions? I mean, being a ferverent believer in one particular religion usually means some problem with other religions. At the very least, there is a whole "roll eyes" sort of feeling that all other religions have it wrong and only YOURS is the true one all the way up to god on god violence like we have had throughout history.
That said, dang I liked the Dark Material's view on technology...he hates electricity!!
posted
I guess it's kinda like reading Heinlien and believing that he is anti-traditional-family. Is he really? Well, I don't know, but I assume that he probably is because of the way he writes about it. Now, I haven't read these books (yet) so I have no clue if it is similar.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I haven't read them recently (I read them maybe three years ago) but I own them. I completely missed the blasphemy. Maybe it went right over the top of my head, maybe I don't know enough about Christianity (it is Christianity that has the problem with these books, right?) to understand why it is blasphemous.
posted
Just read it. Even if you disagree with it completely it's worth reading because of the powerful themes of it, the beautiful writing and images and the SHEER IMAGINATIVENESS OF IT. Plus it's not nearly as disturbing as the Fire Us series which is just EXCELLENT. Read it and keep reading it. The first one is one of those books that makes me scream when it ends.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I haven't read them at all, but my understanding is that it paints God as the ulitimate evil and Satan as the noble hero. That is pretty blasphemous to Christianity.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Scream because you need to read the next book right away?
Note to self: Have all three books available if reading series
Edit: I did a brief search for references to this series on Hatrack, and noticed that you have a lot of admiration and respect for these books. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on them. You have to understand, these books *really* disturbed my sister. In light of that, I intend to find out more before making a decision.
posted
I agree with Tom and Noemon. The first book was delightful. The second and third were not. The theology is fairly Gnostic, which is certainly heretical to orthodox theology, but as long as you’re reading the books as fiction, and not taking place in our universe, no problem. The thing that puzzles me is the people I know who consider them Christian allegory along the lines of CS Lewis. Those people, I think, either don’t know much about Christianity, or have very poor reading comprehension.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
*grin* I'm trying to imagine people taking the stories as Christian allegory. It's downright funny.
Seriously, though, is your sister the kind of person who's ever even contemplated the possibility that the Christian God might, based on the description of His actions and the like, be a wee bit evil? If she finds even the thought too ghastly to consider, she'd probably have some trouble getting past the novel's main conceit.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:I haven't read them at all, but my understanding is that it paints God as the ulitimate evil and Satan as the noble hero. That is pretty blasphemous to Christianity.
Not exactly. Read the books. I got a different take on it, but I won't go into it until you read it.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
*the point of the books whistled over my head*
I'll have to read them again, but I think that Philip Pullman hasn't written a children's book, he's written an adult book that happens to contain children. Can you really seriously call a novel with themes and ideas like that a children's book? A movie won't get it- a movie couldn't get all that. Not a movie made for children.
And he is attacking religion, but not just spiritual religion, he's attacking belief. He simply has another idea. He's merely a man with an idea, same as all other people with ideas (religious or otherwise), you can believe it, if you wish, or you can dismiss parts or all of it. To him, I suppose, Christianity is blasphemous.
I second the fact that the Sally Lockhart books are good. They are completely different. There is hardly any (I say hardly any, because there so definately is still some) views on religion and belief.
Think of these books as a very long and complicated rant.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
Here's the theme. It's not so much as an attack on religion, it's more of an attack on the horrible things people do in the name of religion and the way groups of people can distort those pure themes to use them to control other people and turn them into slaves taking all the joy and pleasure out of life which is the real point....
End spoiler.
Read it and form your own conclusion!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: Seriously, though, is your sister the kind of person who's ever even contemplated the possibility that the Christian God might, based on the description of His actions and the like, be a wee bit evil? If she finds even the thought too ghastly to consider, she'd probably have some trouble getting past the novel's main conceit.
I cannot speak for her, but I expect she hasn't considered such an idea and finds it repugnant. But I am pretty sure that the books disturbed her before that aspect was brought in towards the end.
It reminds me of the story-line of Babylon 5 with the Shadows and Vorlons, two opposing powerful forces seeking to shape lesser sentient life in the galaxy. They both represent two very different approaches and for some of the time we look on the Shadows as evil and the Vorlons as good. (We discover that the Vorlons have been responsible for "planting" religion on the different worlds also.) Later we are introduced to the idea that the Shadows' aim is really the betterment of sentient life, but we are still left with the feeling that they are going about it in an evil way.
Later, we begin to get the feeling that the Vorlons aren't so noble and lofty as was first believed. In fact, in different ways, they are downright evil also. Mankind basically tells both to "take a hike" saying we are grown-up now and can find our way on our own. They both leave and man has "triumphed".
This storyline could be interpreted as being anti-God also. The idea that we don't need God any more than we need Satan and we would be better off on our own.
Because of my beliefs, that ending did nothing for me, personally. I would have preferred for the Vorlons to have remained "angelic", "pure", and "wise" the way they were first portrayed.
Anyway, I am rambling here, just talking about how different people respond to speculative fiction's dealing with religious issues. While a lot of people find this "twist" in the B5 plot empowering, I found it disappointing.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
I think I did like the first book better, but I didn't not enjoy the second and third. I wasn't disturbed by them, but then I never even thought about them as anything but fantasy set in an alternate universe.
I guess I also veiw fiction that is capable of disturbing me as very powerful writing - so I tend to enjoy it for that aspect alone.
They have been marketed as young adult fiction, but in my opinion they are not. Pullman suffers from the marketing concept that a lot of authors suffer from - if it's fantasy based and has young characters, it must be for kids. Which in many cases is absolute rubbish, but the books are marketed that way.
(Not that I'm engaged to an author who writes in that market or anything...)
So just because kids read it - I would never ever take that as a reason not to give it a go.
I'd say read it. Keep in mind that it is fiction. And maybe if you are disturbed by it, you can use that to think more about why, and your own values and ethics. A bit of self-examination prompted by an external source is always a good thing - no matter what the conclusion.
Or you may just love it. Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
And, if you are disturbed by it, just write about it here, because I am curious to see your full impression of it.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, if I do go ahead and read it, I will ressurrect this thread so we can have a big ol' spoiler chat. I will just have to warn everyone in the title. ^_^
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote: It's not so much as an attack on religion, it's more of an attack on the horrible things people do in the name of religion and the way groups of people can distort those pure themes to use them to control other people and turn them into slaves taking all the joy and pleasure out of life which is the real point
What Syn said is better. I change my 'attack on religion' phrase to 'attack on the horrible things people do in the name of religion, which has somehow become, in many cases, synonymous in many minds with religion.'
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hope that you do decide to read it bev--I'm interested to hear what you think of the series. Porter, are you considering reading it as well?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will answer for Porter briefly (he hasn't been on as much lately and I'm not sure he has seen this thread at all) if I do read it, I will attempt to get him to read it with me. I love reading books together with him, though we don't do it often enough anymore. This would be a good opportunity.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Christine and I like to do that too, although we don't do it often enough. I'm in the middle of reading her Kiln People at the moment.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I read the first book and enjoyed it. I've wondered if theology wouldn't be turned upside down later because of the name of a character and the fact that every human in the world of the first book is born with a daemon. An interesting concept. I'm not going to be too offended if it is doing what I think it is doing, and simply turning Dante upside down.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Neat interview, sacrcasticmuppet, thanks for the link...
At one point he says
quote:Every single religion that has a monotheistic god ends up by persecuting other people and killing them because they don’t accept him. Wherever you look in history, you find that. It’s still going on.
... which made me wonder if he thinks polytheists are more religiously tolerant... though he also criticizes anyone (Maoists, Marxists, Stalin, etc.) who takes a doctrine and holds it up as THE truth and kills all those who disagree...
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:It's not so much as an attack on religion, it's more of an attack on the horrible things people do in the name of religion and the way groups of people can distort those pure themes to use them to control other people and turn them into slaves taking all the joy and pleasure out of life which is the real point....
I'd be a lot more sympathetic to this point if it wasn't so often used to attack any form of moral teaching.
I stopped reading after the second book (before amber spyglass came out), because I just didn't care what happened at that point.
posted
I find this funny. I never heard anyone in France talking about the blasphemous subject while talking about "Dark Materials". I guess that's a pretty American thing, like, in the extreme, people saying Harry Potter is bad for children because you don't want them to become sorcerers. *sigh*. I read Pullman's books and absolutely loved then (the second least of the three). It's a very powerfull writing, and, would I be you, I wouldn't focus on the religious thing. You can understand it in many ways anyway, and personally I understood it as an attack of anyone being too extreme about their beliefs, religious or political. The part about death and the Harpies is beautiful. I nearly cried often reading these books.
[ August 19, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Don't give it away! That's one of the best most beautiful parts of the series. It has an EXCELLENT MESSAGE.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I thought the 2nd book was great, so I'm surprised to hear a lot of folks say it's their least favorite...
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
really plaid? I was incredibly disappointed by The Subtle Knife. When I eventually get around to rereading these I'll have to keep your thoughts in mind while reading the second book. How did you feel that it stacked up against #1 and #3?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:So, Dag would you *not* recommend these books? Or perhaps only recommend the first?
I don't know - it's the rare series that I'll put down in the middle, no matter how bad it is. The reason I put it down was the story, not any underlying philosophies. I thought it was poorly constructed and contrived in several places, and by the end of book 2 I couldn't read a page without being yanked out of the story. So I just never spent the time or money on book 3.
As to the theological issues, there's a lot of difference between saying Harry Potter is blasphemous and saying HDM is blasephemous, although I'm not sure I'd use the term for either. Pullman intentionally implemented this theme, so any criticism directed at it is fair game.
posted
There is a HUGE difference between reading things into Harry Potter and criticizing a book that actually uses the Catholic church and God as characters.
I don’t recommend the books. I’m not offended by them, I enjoyed the first book, but I didn’t find reading the whole series to be worth the time when there are so many wonderful books to be read.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I made mention of this before, but the problem I had wasn't so much with the critique, but that the doctrine Pullman comes up with as an alternative (and how he depicts it) is so bland and conventional. That is (and I don't think this is a spoiler, but I will put in a few [strike]hard returns[/strike]empty lines for those who are spoiler sensitive):
EDIT: I get it -- you have to do something like this...
> > > > > > > > > > > >
Sex = (good) dangerous knowledge
-- And --
We're all part of one sort of universal spirit/conscioussness/existence.
Yawn.
How he gets to his conclusion is interesting. And I love the fantasy elements of the series -- the daemons are very cool. But I expected more.
posted
Synth, you have to understand that my sister has already told me a great many things about the book. I've had plenty of spoiler's already.
I also am intrigued by those who compare the anti-religious aspects in HDM to witchcraft in Harry Potter. Dana has an excellent point here, and while I haven't read the books, it seems like there is a difference to me. There are plenty of books that include magic and all matter of ideas that extreme Christian conservatives deem "evil". But they are not as popular as Harry Potter and so people don't make as big a "stink" about it.
Dark Materials, IMO, does more than attack people who do evil in the name of God. If that is all it did, I would have no problem with it. It seems to take the very basic principles of Christian morality and turn them on their ear. Of course this wouldn't bother people who do not hold to the fundamental principles of Christianity. But those who do would be bothered just as those who find Christianity repugnant are likely to be disturbed by The Chronicles of Narnia and have no desire to read them, regardless of how imaginitive or wondrous they are.
While OSC includes much ugliness in his books, he never portrays an amoral universe. He lets ugliness be ugly and nobleness be noble rather than trying to turn morality upside down. That is what I like about his writings. His is a universe that can fit comfortably inside my head. Sometimes his writings seem a bit contrived, but he is doing more than telling a story, he is presenting his ideas about things. The story is a lovely and compelling background for those ideas. I expect it is the same with HDM. I don't know if Pullman's universe would exist comfortably in my head.
I am still undecided on whether or not I intend to read them.
posted
I am really interested in this because my neighbor wanted to lend them to my 7 year old...I have heard some comparisons to DM and HP, noting that the DM universe is amoral as opposed to the inherent morality in HP...I know for sure I will preview them before deciding if my son can read them.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just read them and find out. By the way, It isn't the Catholic church in the book. It's, I believe, a Calvinist system.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
[tangent] You know, I keep giving people this advice about LDS-specific scripture, and they keep not listening to me. [/tangent]
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
[/tangent]
