Also, though I do agree that you (fallow) had a disconcerting habit of insulting people in very veiled terms, I think you should have the right to come back.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Guys, I should point out that CONTINUING to dole out veiled insults is probably not going to get you what you want.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I found a couple of things in Space Opera's landmark that I wanted to know more about, but I was afraid that by asking I might spoil the snapshot.
I don't think you would. I think if you post something, you don't mind talking about it if people want to know more. If a questioner pushes to close to a personal boundary, you can always say so. Now, that all goes for questions designed to get to know a person better, or learn from their experience. The only thing I think IS definitely out of line is demeaning or belittling the person whose landmark it is. I think discussing legitimate issues raised would serve to make a landmark alive instead of a dead testimony. I know I tried in both of my landmarks to morph them into discussions of particular issues, recovery and fear of death. In my second one, I specifically asked people how they face this fear or what their perspective on it was. I didn't succeed in getting a discussion started, which is why I agree now with what you posted before about landmarks versus discussions, but I sure wish that discussion could have taken place.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
*agrees with Icky* I think questions are always good. There is nothing wrong with seeking to understand or clarify. Skillery, you are more than welcome to discuss/ask anything in my landmark thread; I'll let you know if it hits too close.
By the way, I LOVE how Icky described a landmark as a speaking done by the individual. I too, find it fascinating to discover how a person became who they are presently.
posted
I'm torn on landmarks. I mean, I like them and all -- I mean I'm torn on the ongoing conversation portions. I understand the desire of some writers that the writing be taken for what it is and not questioned. But I also understand the desire for others to dig more deeply into subjects, especially here on a public forum.
I certainly didn't mind having questions asked on mine. Others leapt to my defense before I did on some of the questions. I was a little disappointed at questions like "Why did you have to write another one?" and "Why did you make this up?" though, because questions like those really don't spark a good conversation.
I don't post in most landmarks, though I certainly read them. I did at first, but then there were so many of them. I think there's an extra dollop of ownership in many of those threads, and I suppose I was more avoiding hurting someone's feelings because I didn't post in their landmark but did post in someone else's. My safest bet was to refrain in all of them. Perhaps that's not the best way, though, because there have been some discussions that develop from landmarks in which I might be interested, but had already decided to stay out. Maybe I'll change. I guess we'll see.
quote: I was a little disappointed at questions like "Why did you have to write another one?" and "Why did you make this up?" though, because questions like those really don't spark a good conversation.
That's a distinction I was trying to draw, aleit less successfully. That insulting posts are especially inappropriate in a landmark (i.e., more than they would be elsewhere) but questions meant just to further the conversation in a spirit of openness rather than criticism are, I think, always appropriate.
-o-
I have posted in most of them. In fact, out of curiousity, I went back and looked in the archives one day. Almost every serious landmark thread has at least one post from me. I haven't posted, though, in landmarks written for somebody by somebody else. The only other ones I have missed are landmarks that came during periods when I was away from Hatrack altogether.
Does this cheapen my posts, as though they are going through a motion? I hope not, and I don't think so. In each case, I have expressed an honest feeling. Sometimes it's just "Congratulations, I'm glad you're here," and sometimes they speak to a point the author raised that was particularly resonant to me, perhaps because of my own experiences.
I have heard indirectly of several people who make an active point never to post in them. I can understand this if you are one of those people who dislike landmarks, smileys, and e-hugs. In other words, if you think this is a silly/self-indulgent/worthless tradition and just wish it would die. After all, if everyone did this, the tradition would be dead.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Maybe we should have a standard "I read your landmark" reply.
In this reply you could have several phrases to check off like:
_ Wow, that was beautiful. _ You were so _ lucky or _ blessed. _ You were so brave and strong. _ I really admire you. _ You suck. _ Will you be my friend? _ I totally validate you. _ _ _ Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I don't think what I do is tantamount to that, because a checklist basically indicates that you did all your thinking long ago and are barely sparing a moment to give some thought to this new landmark. When I reply to a landmark, I am not using some formula. I am thinking at that moment about what I feel like saying, and so even if I write the same thing esentially twice, it is still an honest reaction.
In any case, are you saying you would prefer no response at all to one that, essentially, said "I have read this special post that you poured your heart into. I value you, and I'm glad Hatrack has brought you into my life" and not much more?
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Perhaps I am being cynical, Icarus. I doubt some people's sincerity. Not everyone's, and I can't even point to anyone's sincerity that I doubt.
Papa Moose had the first landmark post, and it was a sincere opening up of his life, for which he got many sincere responses. I think that many other landmarks have been posted as part of tradition, and their replies have also been part of the tradition as a whole. Some people may feel obligated to reply simply so they can show that they, too, are part of the community. Some people may post landmarks in order to garner attention. Some people may feel obligated to reply in landmark posts so that when they post, they will also get many replies.
I guess I also can sometimes feel uncomfortable with the opening up of one's most private inner being and one's past trials to very public scrutiny in order for public validation. And there is pressure in this community for that kind of activity. And when I read these posts, I am torn from the pain these people have gone through and am rendered helpless at the same time. What can I do about it other than offer the pathetic hugs and "Oh, but you are a good person, really." Even sincere, it seems lame.
How many of us are really there for each other? Honestly? How many could actually get up and go help another Hatracker in physical need? How many would? There is so much sentiment of family and community that gives a false sense of real life support. If I died in an accident tomorrow, how would you know? Who would care here? Who here would care what you think? Who would bother to inform the internet community I was a part of? Yes, there are real life friendships that have formed, and people who live near each other. But otherwise, this sense of being there for one another is limited only to words. Words can be powerful, but all too often can be powerless as well. What can we do for the hatracker 1000 miles away who is having surgery on their knee and won't be able to walk for a couple of weeks? For the hatracker who is in constant physical pain, but never complains about it because gaining a few (()) from people who barely know them isn't worth the burden you put on these virtual stranger friends.
I think katharina's situation in Texas is a prime example. Here we have all these Hatrack get togethers, and unless she spends serious money, she can't meet them. I couldn't go to KamaCon because it was out of our financial range and I felt like I had already taken time away from my family (writing retreat) and my husband, who is a much bigger priority in my own life than any of you.
I posted a landmark, and I did put some of my angst in it, but most of you have no idea what my worst sufferings have been and you will never know. Most of you have no idea of my greatest experiences have been, either.
I'm fairly private. Not overly so, but I don't feel comfortable with blogs, either.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:How many of us are really there for each other? Honestly? How many could actually get up and go help another Hatracker in physical need? How many would?
There are people I've met on Hatrack, for whom I'd do this, if they needed me. I'd fly myself all the way from here for them, if I knew it would help. There are very few of these people, and there is a chance they don't care about me as much as I care about them. But there are people for whom I'd do this, even if it would, at present, cost me my job.
[ September 01, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I'm going to need a special, "really wants to know" graemlin when I ask questions on landmarks. People think I'm mounting an attack and rush to the landmarker's rescue. Some of the rescuers are so earnest that they make me doubt my own sincerity.
We can't do much for each other at this distance, but we can learn from each other.
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I whine about living in Texas, but I go other places because I can. The whining is sort of funny because I've never INVITED anyone to come here.
Many, many people have definitely been there for me. You may not feel a part of the support system here, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just becuase you wouldn't help out anyone who really needed it doesn't mean no one else would.
You can choose to be part of it or not, but it does exist. I'm sorry we can't do anything more than a few brackets to ease physical pain, and it's not a substitute for a outside life, but it is a real community.
posted
*thinks* I did invite you! That's right! And I offered the air mattress.
Dang, that WOULD have been really cool. But there's Dallas and then really nothing else around, and I couldn't have taken off work to be a tour guide for more than a few days, so it made more sense to go NorthEast.
Invitation still stands. I have extra blankets.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
There are at least a dozen people on Hatrack for whom I would drop nearly anything. Heck, I seriously considered flying out to Karl's housewarming this weekend, even though we've got a new baby and tickets are running $200 apiece. And I'd like to think that there are a handful that'll do the same for me.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yes, everyone has a few people they'll do that for, and it is quite valid that people have met here. The fact that we have married and engaged couples who have met on Hatrack attest to that. But it still will never have the power of support that a physical community of similar size would have. We know that. Why else the dreamy speculation of a "Hatrack Commune"?
I'm not saying it can't be a support system. We've all learned important things to help us, like with legal and medical things. And there can be a lot of emotional support. And I've enjoyed some of that support.
Kat,
You say this support system work for me very much? How do you know it doesn't work for me? There are dear people on Hatrack that know things that I will not volunteer to anyone else even in real life, nor post publicly.
As a whole, Hatrack should never replace real life community involvement. Sometimes this can overlap, like when there is clump or people knew each other before they signed up together. But other times, it is a poor substitute for the real thing. It can actually be damaging to real life relationships. And sometimes this damage is subtle, not just like the spouse or kids being neglected because of the time spent on Hatrack. Anytime anyone attaches themself more fully to one community, they withdraw somewhat from another. This can be very healthy, like when the child leaves the family to go to college/get a job/get married. But it can be harmful when posting on Hatrack makes you neglect other things, like work, school, family, and church. And every active Hatracker has done that.
This is why I hate the "Oh, please, don't go!" kind of thing as much as the "Dear Hatrack, you hurt me, I'm leaving" posts. Sometimes it is far better for people to leave this place than to stay.
posted
I have set things on hold, but never really put them off if it would hurt something. I even got my wife to post here, because I know she loves a lot of the same things I do, and I wanted her to be a part of this place.
I see your point about how the "relationship of words" here can foster a false sense of security. IRL, often ther is nothing that we can do physically to help one another.
But don't forget that a lot of help comes from being able and willing to listen, and to offer support. Sometimes we don't have anyone who can listen impartially IRL, or we want to discuss things that don't interest others around us...but we can find that sort of discussion here,, almost any time of the day or night.
I feel like I spend a lot of time here, but some of that is novelty to me. This is the first real computer I have ever owned, and I am learning to type (slowly but surely), so I feel I am getting something for my time. I am sure that it will pale in time, but for now it's cool.
posted
"idly, if frankly, wonders if keyboarding will ever be sanctioned as an Olympic sport, or, at the very least, provide a good photo-op in a run-up to something or other."
- an excerpt from "Stop Whining, Start Winning: A Desultant's End-Game Guide to Life in the Cynocratic Age"
posted
I think that even though my attendance has been flagging a bit, I still consider many if not most of the people here real-life friends.
I was surprised when I went to Kamacon how very easily I fell in with the people there, and how very familiar it all was. I can remember the faces of the people I met at Kamacon better than some people I've known for years. (as acquaintances mind, but still...)
I have a terrible memory for faces and names, but it was easy for me to remember the names and faces of the people I met at Hatrack. :/ I dunno.
If it was within my means to gather to help a friend I met on Hatrack, I would do it. In the meantime I will give my support as much as I can over the ether. Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I feel blessed having run across the opportunity to tell my story in a place like hatrack. This feels like a very safe place to me and I have a deeper connection with several people here moreso than I do in real life. Even if people seem to flippantly reply with a "cool story, you rock!" and "I'm glad you are here" I appreciate it. I appreciate it because having been here for several years I've learned that most people seem to sincerely care. It doesn't feel contrived because I know what kind of people this community consists of. Do I care what the motivation behind posters airing out in lanndmark threads are? No. Being willing to open up to us in this public forum doesn't take away from the value of your story and how appreciative I am that you are willing to share with me. I can also respect those that would rather keep whatever they want to themselves. To each his/her own.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Tom - As you said, Christy may disagree. However, Christy also married you knowing your connection with Hatrack. That is kind of like knowing your husband has a big thing for football and during football season will be glued to the TV several times a week. However, when the event actually happens, the wife can feel neglected.
I've been trying to get a handle on why some personal posting on Hatrack bothers me and why other personal posting does not. There have been several painful, personal stories that I've appreciated reading because I've seen the strength and goodness of people who lift themselves out of the mire despite everything that has happened to them.
Perhaps it is this. This is a fairly large community. There are several lurkers, I'm sure. Michael Thompson, fallow, flish, whatever is a prime example of how a person can get here: there was some kind of dare or mission from another forum to get some kind of reaction from a forum (I don't remember what it was). These are the kind of people that can view this forum. If you had a class of, say, about 300-500, would you get up on a podium and tell everyone? You know that at least half of those people are good people, some of whom would do anything to help you, some of whom would offer up great emotional support, others who admire and appreciate you silently. But another half of those people are in the shadows some of them reacting with apathy and some of them possibly even heckling you or rolling their eyes. Some turn on their headphones or play their gameboys. Some have other conversations.
This auditorium isn't closed, either. It is open to everybody, whether you think they can get directions there or not.
How many of these people do you really want to give your story to?
Okay, and now here comes some "golden-age-of-Hatrack" whining. When this place was smaller, everyone could be heard easily. Interestingly enough, that I recall, there was actually less personal information being divulged then. The exhange was mainly of ideas and opinions, not personal stories. I think that as more people joined the forum, the psychological need to be heard and not ignored by other members created an atmosphere where people told more about themselves. Making sure we knew them would increase the groups sensitivity so that when they did offer their opinions, they would be respected. This has evolved so that there is a great deal of focus on making sure people feel loved and sustained here. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. But it does mean that when there is strong disagreement, people are more likely to take it personally. And when people start taking things personally, they often will cease to distance themselves from the argument and get emotionally involved. There are, of course, always the people who start to personally attack their opponent as well, so that rather than saying "I disagree with this statement and this is why" they say things like "I can't believe you said THIS, you are so wrong, so mean, so misguided, etc."
And if you post something of your own personal actions that may go against other people's moral constructs, you cannot post expecting everyone to applaud your behavior. Posting such on Hatrack is a better way to examine your actions than to ask for acceptance, and invites personal response.
posted
Golden age musings are always funny to me because the golden age of Hatrack I remember is usually dependent either one or two people being giving and hilarious (bonduca, Ralphie) or else it's a complete illusion. It all goes in cycles, it always does. The golden ages dependent on a few people being consistently entertaining are, I admit, a blast and I miss them. But they are dependent on the dedication of a few talented people, and it isn't fair to wish for or demand that. They are like rainbows, a splendid surprise and experience but nothing you can count on or be owed.
The board is so incredibly polite now that it's beautiful. A year ago (about?) Baldar was tearing it up. Two years ago Olivia and I were being, in the words of the eloquent Taalcon, "ravenous birds of prey." Was the Golden Age when Ced was here? Or was it during the Great Homosexuality Debates? Maybe the time when everything was about Abortion and Who Would Play Ender.
It's the same board. When the cycles are factored in, it's the same board. What's changed is the cast of characters. Nostalgia of any kind isn't a longing for the time, it's a longing for the person you were, the place you held, and the people around you. That has changed, but it was going to change anyway. It always does.
posted
Nicely put Kat. Your post sounds like one of those thoughtful voice overs in a good Wonder Years episode. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:How many of these people do you really want to give your story to?
I can see why this might keep you from wanting to share information about yourself, but I don't see why it should bother you if other people choose to. Are you just worried that they don't know what they're really doing?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
There were two million people on by that time... I was a latecomer.
Well, maybe it was the whole internet that was better and that simply rubs off.
No popup ads.
No banner ads.
Your ISP, except for AOL, provided 5 megabytes of storage space to be used in any way you wanted, including hosting a webpage. So no whining about needing money to maintain your homepage.
No email viruses.
Very, very little spam. I can't say no spam, because the first spam email was in 1978.
The growth of the internet was palpable then. I remember being in a small IRC chat room very much like Hatrack about religion. We exchanged so many interesting ideas! But as the population doubled, tripled and the people joining were no longer, well, nerds, the discussion spiraled down to "You are all going to hell!" "No I'm not, stupid bigoted fundamentalist" The people who had made the place interesting drifted away.
Same with TinyTIM. The Blackhole, sure it got funny at times, but mostly you could have the most interesting conversations about philosophy, science, religion, etc. And then it got in an internet guide book. Do you believe there were actually printed books that attempted to tell you where everything was on the internet? Suddenly, a huge influx of "I'm so cool, I'm in the oldest MUSH on the internet" people joined. The Blackhole became a haven for A/S/L and fluff, with some people actively breaking down any serious discussion that began.
And Hatrack DID use to be smaller. There was a time when you could read and reply to everything in an hour, even with a long post. Edit: And maybe I do think that was better.
posted
They are still there, though. There are still boards that discuss those things, still philisophical conversations, still poetry, still love, still places to discuss ships and shoes and sealing wax, cabbages and kings. Sometimes that place is this board. What you are wishing for still exists, just not in the place you set it down eight years ago. Not only does that still exist, but a million other options for everyone else do too.
If you're upset that Hatrack isn't an exclusive club anymore where everyone knows your name, then you're definitely on your own. That's just the nostalgia for who you were and the place you held. It's fine to feel sorrow for it, but it's not an accurate depiction of the current board.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You know, Hatrack is so wonderful and unique.
The relationship of words is there... and while it is not exactly the same in real life, it is a reflection of exactly who they/we are.
Like when I hung out with Jenny Gardener. I knew she was smart and cool...but I never realized that she was so playful! We ran around the hotel being silly getting other folk to join in. And Saturday night down in the bar with six or seven of us talking about the world and all the issues and philosophy... that for me was the TRUE Hatrack forum. So fun. And that kind of thing was happening to everybody in all the little groups that spun off.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
*nods* I agree, Telpy. Everything Ami's longing for is still here, just with different people in the parts.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Let me boil the long post and my replies down to my point:
When it was smaller, it was naturally more familiar without much purposeful exposition of personal details. As it got bigger, in order to be 'known' by other people, more stories about self were divulged.
And some are more comfortable with one way than the other.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I think the coming of AIM changed the dynamic far more than the landmarks. It means the informal getting-to-know you happens off-camera.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I was never big on Hatrack and I never tried to be. That isn't what I was longing for. I have always thought that _trying_ to be popular was silly and involved too much pushing other people down to get on top (even if it is not by insulting, but by talking over someone or in the case of a forum, writing a whole bunch of 'look at me' posts) and too much attempt to conform with the majority at the expense of self integrity.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:When it was smaller, it was naturally more familiar without much purposeful exposition of personal details. As it got bigger, in order to be 'known' by other people, more stories about self were divulged.
And some are more comfortable with one way than the other.
Hmmmm... you have a point... Never thought about it like that. But then again I love all this personal sharing... Makes me realize I'm not crazy. And hanging out with intellectual peers is good too.
[ September 02, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
AIM was a good thing, actually. I think it took a lot of pressure off the forum. The spin off forums like galacticcactus, grenme, madowl, sakeriver are also good places simply because they are smaller and the people have been drawn there by commonalities that are stronger than with Hatrack at large.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I'm not complaining. I'm discussing the state of Hatrack. Yes, I've also spoken about things that made me uncomfortable, but I think you are reading far more negativity into my comments than are there.
quote:Nostalgia of any kind isn't a longing for the time, it's a longing for the person you were, the place you held, and the people around you. That has changed, but it was going to change anyway. It always does.
Just so you know kat, I'm copying that one down. I really, really like it.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
But nostalgia isn't always bad and isn't always wishful.
Vladimir and I look at our early marriage with great nostalgia. And we are so glad we are where we are now.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I also have to admit to having spent quite a bit of time creating my room. I was going to create a whole quest world thing. Vladimir was on there too. Shmovkin, I think was his name, and he spent ALL of his time there creating little wandering objects and traps in his room. It is still there. Shmovkin checked about a year ago and some of his ants escaped and are wandering the whole place.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Okay, a disclaimer right now: I know why John created GreNME, and I think it was a great thing to do and I know it had nothing to do with Hatrack. But the forum got populated by a few hatrackers, so there is a group of them over there, so we kind of think of it as sub-community attached to Hatrack. Sorry if that bugs you, John.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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He doesn't even lurk here anymore as far as I know, so I don't think you need to apologize to him here. I'm just saying that if you call GreNME a spin-off in his presence, he'll probably go off on you.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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