The technical writers and designers were barely involved by 1997. When they became involved, the ease of use changed to point that it was worth the time of the general population to get involved.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
I've been thinking about this for a few days, especially since I recently posted my landmark. I don't know what motivations other people have for posting a landmark; I only know mine. Truthfully, I posted a landmark for me, not for anyone on this board. Let's call it a catharsis of sorts. That I had such a lovely, accepting place such as Hatrack to post it is a wonderful thing.
I love reading landmarks. As I said in mine, everyone has a story. The stories of people have always fascinated me. Whether they're happy or sad I'm interested and intrigued. It amazes me what often lurks behind a seemingly ordinary person. Hearing stories makes me realize that no one is ordinary at all. They help me appreciate the beauty in people, and most often teach me things about humanity and human connections that I didn't know before. I value every opportunity to learn, just as I value every story I hear.
The only Hatrack I know is the one that exists now. I enjoy it. No matter what I want to discuss, there's always someone up for it, be it science fiction, politics, or parachute pants. Perhaps it's larger than in the past, but change is ineveitable. I've learned so much here and have met some wonderful people. Do they replace my family or closest RL friends? Of course not. However, after KamaCon I definately believe that bonds of friendship develop, and to attempt to cast a value on these bonds is to cheapen them. Hatrack is a place filled with vibrant, intelligent people from all walks of life. I will always value Hatrack for what it is instead of mourning what it is not.
quote: Okay, and now here comes some "golden-age-of-Hatrack" whining. When this place was smaller, everyone could be heard easily. Interestingly enough, that I recall, there was actually less personal information being divulged then. The exhange was mainly of ideas and opinions, not personal stories. I think that as more people joined the forum, the psychological need to be heard and not ignored by other members created an atmosphere where people told more about themselves. Making sure we knew them would increase the groups sensitivity so that when they did offer their opinions, they would be respected. This has evolved so that there is a great deal of focus on making sure people feel loved and sustained here. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. But it does mean that when there is strong disagreement, people are more likely to take it personally. And when people start taking things personally, they often will cease to distance themselves from the argument and get emotionally involved. There are, of course, always the people who start to personally attack their opponent as well, so that rather than saying "I disagree with this statement and this is why" they say things like "I can't believe you said THIS, you are so wrong, so mean, so misguided, etc."
And if you post something of your own personal actions that may go against other people's moral constructs, you cannot post expecting everyone to applaud your behavior. Posting such on Hatrack is a better way to examine your actions than to ask for acceptance, and invites personal response.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
I think you put it quite well, actually. i didn't get that you were really whining...hence the "quotation marks"...
What i got out of that was that you were noting the differences, and that there is a difference or two. i didn't get that you were unhappy here now, or that it was all wonderful back then and you wish it was that way now.
I think it was one of the best written posts I have read here, and I just wanted to tell you that.
BTW, I have been here for a while, but not forever...I remember Ced, and Otaku (who STILL isn't me, and vise-versa... ), and other things that weren't always great. But this place still amazes me, particularly after I go somewhere else and see how people treat each other.
I don't think it always goes in a complete circle, but I do see things that are in common throughout my years here at Hatrack.
There are still plenty of serious discussions...if you want them, and try to remember that some of these people are discussing these things here for the first time.
There are clicks, to be sure, but even the clicks here are more friendly to noobs, both real new people and other hatrackers who don't live near them, than most people ever are at other places.
That for the most part even if you really disagree with someone here, you can see them in another thread and not have to worry about being ambushed.
That people here can make a difference in each others lives, even if they never meet each other IRL.
I would rather be here at Hatrack than any other site I have found, and there is no way in heaven OR hell that I would have sponsored a meet-up for any other group. Nor would I go to one that someone else was having, unless I already knew them from RL. I was so comfortable with Hatrackers that I not only offered to throw the WMASS Picnic, i invited my family and parents to it.....and they loved it.
The first thing my mom said the next day was "I wasn't sure about the whole Internet meeting part, but you have some VERY cool friends! Are you going to do that again before you move?"...
posted
I've been wanting to reply to this issue of people sharing things that perhaps ought to be private, and I have been unable to do so due to the whole hurricane thing.
I think at the heart of this is an assumption that some of the very personal stories that some of us have shared really should have remained secrets, and that seems to me to imply that we are sharing things we ought to be ashamed of. The speculation on the motivations behind this sharing certainly suggest that to me, because there are so many other kinds of posts where it is not necessary to question the motivation at all. The implication here is, These are such dreadful secrets you are revealing, what can you possibly be getting out of it? And then you go looking for motivation, and all that can occur to you is that hard luck stories function as some sort of Springeresque currency.
Without assigning value, I would say that there are people who can feel comfortable sharing very personal details of their lives, and there are others for whom this is impossible. And if you are one kind, it may be impossible for you to identify with the other kind on this, and so your speculations about their motivations may be completely off base.
I may have started the tradition of the TMI-Landmark--I have been told as much before. So what was my motivation? As with Space Opera's landmark, I did it for me. And it has to do with this idea of shame, and what one ought to keep secret. I'd been trying to convince myself for years that I should not be ashamed of things that were not my fault, while also keeping them secret. And so I shared because doing so was a statement that I was not ashamed--that I was stronger than the monsters under the bed. I shared with Hatrack because Hatrack had made me feel safe, but also because of the unknowable. Because of the public nature of the auditorium. It was a mixture of the two. There were people here who would be interested in my story because they were interested in me, and hey, maybe my story could be helpful to somebody. But I was also taking a chance and refusing to let my fear stop me.
Whether it's actually right or wrong, or whether it's a good thing or not, I don't know. As I said, I have been specifically told by people that some things simply ought not be talked about in a forum like this. Every time I see that sentiment, I worry and I wonder. The ashamed part of me gets ashamed again. The assumption that I bared my soul for some Hatrack popularity is particularly humiliating. (You know, people listened to me just fine before I posted my first landmark.)
But then again, facing the possibility that not everyone would approve was part of the point, after all.
Anyway, not all of the landmarks have gone into TMI territory. As a reader of landmarks, I do feel that they flesh out the posters for me, and make it easier for me to see them as more than characters, more than words on my screen. So I guess they do, as Amka suggests, make me a better listener when it comes to those Hatrackers. I just like to think that there is more on the poster's part than this shallow motivation.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Joe- I loved your landmark because it made me realize that your silence on a many a popular subject is as much a statement as when you give voice.
That is a kind of strength that is rare.
The only time I ever felt uncomfortable about the information you gave was when you mentioned how much you love all things Disney. I was uncomfortable because I had NOTHING to add to the discussion. It was my ignorance that made me uncomfortable, not your information.
Posts: 2425 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I knew when I posted my own thoughts that some people who had posted deeply revealing landmarks would think I was talking about their posts. "TMI" is not necessarily the criteria by which I figure someone is posting their life story to feel more accepted by the group. I sincerely hope that people have received the healing they sought when they posted such landmarks.
Just know that public self revelation can have other, larger repercussions than simply healing for you. It can add to a voyeuristic tendency in the community. It can add to the pain of someone else. People may even get angry at you, even if it is irrational (like wondering if, now that you are an adult who understands that the act was not your fault, have you reported the incident to make sure that there are no other victims? Wouldn't that be where true healing could be had, to stop it from happening to other people? Isn't that a more productive way of purging the shame and pain?)
Of course, there are positive things. It could help someone else heal. It could inspire someone to improve themselves.
It is natural that you would equate shame with secrecy. Secrecy is so often the covering up of evil, and so often enables it. But there is a difference between secrecy and privacy. It is such a fine line. Molestation thrives only because there is secrecy, and it is important that a few stories be shared so that the majority can come to know the nature of that particular enemy. Physical and emotional abuse are the same. But how much is too much?
Why do shows like Jerry Springer thrive? Are we a better society because of it? Does it help us to look down from our own unsteady path to goodness so that we can safely say that we are better people than those?
Just know that no matter your motivations, it will have a very different affect on every person that reads it and it will affect the community as a whole.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I don't think so. I don't think there's a downside to having a place safe enough to share part of yourself. Hatrackers don't parade their emotions like a badge - at least, not usually. If it happens at all, then it is well within the tolerances of our community to endure a little attention-longing. After all, there's enough acceptance to endure so many other things. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Actually, Amka, I didn't think that you were referring specifically to me, so I'm not personally offended or anything like that. Rather, I realized that your words applied to me, so that prompted some self-examination. And I do tend to use Hatrack as my place for working out whatever is in my mind--because it always can be counted on to ask the tough questions--so I posted my reflections here.
quote: Just know that public self revelation can have other, larger repercussions than simply healing for you. It can add to a voyeuristic tendency in the community.
An example of the tough question/statement. This has occurred to me since posting my landmark, and I have tried to do what I could to ameliorate that effect, such as calling attention to beautiful landmark posts that were not dark or confessional. (If we want to discourage voyeurism, we need to be sure to value people independently of whether or not they expose themselves to our prying eyes.) I don't know if it has done any good or not. I may have inadvertantly contributed to a change in the dynamic here, to making things more voyeauristic. If I damaged the community, I am sorry. It was not my intention.
quote: It can add to the pain of someone else.
I'm not sure I see this.
quote: (like wondering if, now that you are an adult who understands that the act was not your fault, have you reported the incident to make sure that there are no other victims? Wouldn't that be where true healing could be had, to stop it from happening to other people? Isn't that a more productive way of purging the shame and pain?)
I will assume that this is directed at least partially toward me, since it comes after my post on the topic. First of all, I don't think true healing can only come from one source. I don't think there is a distinction to be made here between more and less productive ways to purge shame and pain. (Only whether or not the good accomplished outweighs the possible harm to the community, and I will humbly accept that the jury may still be out on that one.)
To answer the specific question, I have not. I have no evidence of a crime other than my testimony, and it is a crime that is well over twenty years old. (In Florida, the statute of limitations for prosecting sexual assault cases is four years.) I wouldn't even know where to find the perpetrator. From time to time, I have entertained the notion of hiring a private detective to track down the guy so that I could press charges or file suit or something, but that has always been more of a passing fancy than a serious plan. I can barely pay my mortgage, let alone private eyes. I hope that he has been less lucky if he did the same thing to somebody else, and that he has been brought to justice somehow. Is this enough? Again, I don't know. I accept that it may not be, and am open to the suggestion that I should do more.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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It is as you said, 20 years ago, and there is not very much you are able to do about it right now. I don't hold you responsible for that.
The issue of how the law should handle it is very complex, compounded as it is by false accusations and what to do with minor perpetrators. It is something of a hot spot with me, and by you replying and me remembering your post, you pressed a button. Sorry.
But it is a very good example of what I'm saying. We have no idea how our stories can affect other people, even people we think we know. The good it can do for us needs to be weighed with the impact it has on the community as a whole. For the community, as Kat said, there can be enough to go around.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ami, for the record, I completely disagree with what you are saying, and I think it's more than a little destructive to imply that those who share the hard parts of their life in a safe place are doing it solely for the attention.
But Hatrack's a nice place, and it can absorb this bit of destruction that you feel the need to say.
---
quote:Both you and I have been hurt in our dealings with people on this board. We've both hurth other people. We've even hurt each other.
I believe, and you may very well disagree with me, that this was less likely to happen much earlier on in Hatrack history.
No, I don't agree. Are you kidding? I have been horribly hurt on this board, and it was YEARS ago. This current time is as much a Shangrai-Lai as any other has been.
posted
You said, I thought (and I may be wrong), that there wasn't a downside. I'm saying that I thought there was. And you are too fast on the draw. I shouldn't have added so many more thoughts to my edit.
If I write your name in parentheses, will you accept that as symbolic of my apology for any negative effect my story has had on you or Hatrack, my esteem for you regardless of how much or how little of your private life you divulge, simply for what you have contributed to this place, and my assurance and hope that there are no hard feelings between you and me?
posted
Of course, Icarus. You really did have no way of knowing, and I'm not (nor was I) angry at you. Apology very much accepted.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Say there is a very personal issue I want to share, and I know sharing it will help me a lot. Are you saying I should reconsider whether I really should do this, because there is a chance someone else will be hurt by my posting?
Posts: 5700 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I do not see any bad coming from people sharing their personal stories.
I really don't - I don't know why you object to it other than you don't like the motivations you are making up for them.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:I prefer to assume the best intentions in people than to assume that something they say is a veiled attempt to insult. And if I'm wrong, so what. I'm still the happier for it, and it is they who must suffer with their negative thoughts.
posted
I don't think it was passive aggressive, as you were actively pointing out a discrepancy between my actions and my stated prefered course of action.
It is probably 'aggressive' in these particular semantics.
However, even that definition doesn't quite fit since you didn't say something like "Amka is such a mean spirited hypocrite", you simply pointed out a truth.
Does that make sense?
Edit: Oh wait... you did laugh at me. Perhaps that ups the aggressive factor.
posted
I guess I found it ironic as much as anything. Just as I see irony in the fact that Rabbit is LDS. You can't really say Mrs. Card gives LDS a free pass as a result.
posted
However, I would also like to state that my comments here have not only been about the motivations of people, but about the consequences as well.
And the motivation of wanting someone to understand you better, and therefore listen to you more or with more respect is not necessarily a negative motivation.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
LadyDove, I am deeply honored by what you said.
You know, I've harbored this fear for the past year that meeting me must have been a real let-down for the SoCal clump, because you all had to go so far out of your way, and then we weren't really up to doing much. So I'm racking my brains out here thinking of how I could possibly be worthy of your repeated kindnesses!
Anyway, thanks. It means a lot to me coming from you. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I'm curious, fallow. Why do you have multiple screen names? When other posters do it, there's usually some joke behind it. But I don't see any real difference in your posting style lately under any of them. So why bother?
(Not that your response will be intelligible to me, but there's always hope, I guess.)
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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