quote:While I recognize that Tom is being inflammatory and most likely doesn't care what anyone says to him, I think it's important to note that it is exactly this kind of statement that so many non-theists find so off-putting.
Sorry if it was offensive to you, Saxon. I didn't mean it to be. I wasn't meaning it as a "judgment", (like God would be condemning) I meant it as I was picturing the look on Tom's face when/if he realizes there is a God....
Is it still offensive in that context?
Farmgirl
Then again, I guess as a fundamentalist Christian, there probably isn't anything I could say that wouldn't be found offensive by some people here, regarding my beliefs, -- when I choose to stand by my beliefs.
Posts: 9538 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Salvation is just as valid one millisecond before the buzzer as it is a millenia ahead of time.
I've heard this enough times to know that this is accurate, but it doesn't really seem fair to me. If a person lives his entire life as an avowed atheist and only changes his mind when he sees actual physical proof of God, such as the apocalypse happening as laid out in Revelations, that doesn't seem much like faith and repentance to me. Why should he be rewarded for something that seems so much like a cop-out?
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And honestly, I have yet to receive a hint that I could embrace as undeniable.
I'm not saying "I know there is a God and I deny him." What I am saying is God has not shown himself to me in such a fashion that I could recognize it for the Divine Message it was intended to be. And lacking that proof, even if I could never repeat it or reveal it to anyone else, I cannot bend knee to what may very well be a figment of someone's imagination.
As God is all-(knowing, seeing, powerful), He must be aware of my limitations and must also know what would be required for my belief.
Now it's possible I just wasn't meant to make the cut and I'm damned to Hell after serving a minor role in helping someone else to make the cut. Which kinda sucks for me.
quote: PSI, what about all those people who believe the Tribulation is going to happen in their lifetimes? Am I justified in calling these people sick and evil?
Probably not.
There seems to be a big thing missing in all your arguments...the people who aren't expected to have to endure the Tribulation. (I realize there are Christians who don't hold to this but I think most of them do so I'm working with that.)
So, if I go on the assumption that most people who have an understanding of what the Bible says about the Tribulation are going to be followers of the Bible, then they probably won't qualify as sick or evil to God.
Actually, we are all evil. The difference in the end will be which people chose to do their best to live God's way, and fight the evil nature, and those who do not.
edit to add: this is all my opinion, of course. Everyone can do themselves, and me, a favor and add IMO to the end of every sentence.
quote:God is the one choosing to kill me. He's the one choosing to sentence me to Hell. He is, if these things are true, my ENEMY. Why would I bend knee to this being?
Tom, God gives you CHOICE (that is freewill) He is saying "Choose me -- Choose whether to live (according to His grace) or choose to die" Pretty black & white there.
You are saying, "I don't agree with this, God. I don't think this is right that you are making me choose, so I am choosing to NOT choose" (basically) and in so doing, YOU are choosing to have yourself die -- HE isn't choosing to kill you. You are condemning yourself.
So you are arguing the process, the plan, with Him, the Creator. He is only your enemy in your eyes because you are choosing to put Him in that role..
posted
Wow...all this discussion because Mrs. Powell asked her husband not to run for president!
Amazing discussion and fast, fast, fast. Hard to keep up. About to post a good idea and BAM! They haved moved on.
Stuff that I think Tom pointed out were quickly shot over as the conversation moved on to eternity, God's chat (with gloating audience, it appears) with Tom, and Why Hell Is A Good Thing.
People who MAYBE are fundamentalist on here are responding defensively, which is reasonable because it must be horrible to be told by someone who doesn't believe what you believe that your ideas are wrong or dangerous. I can't possibly imagine what that would feel like in these enlightened times.
That said, though, Tom made a point about Goodness and people were all like "well, how do we know Tom's ideas of goodness are the RIGHT ones?" and so on. Well, he gave some pretty clear examples and while not representative of all things good or evil, they are talking points.
In addition to the violence perpetuated against humanity throughout the Biblical accounts and the torturous mind games played on not only those who don't believe but some who are devout, God also sent someone else to sleep with a married man's wife to begat a child. That there is adultery if the woman was willing and rape if not yet this is Good because...why? The end justified the means?
This is maybe what Tom is getting at...if we use God as a role model for what is good and define good by what He has done...can't anyone else see that this could lead to some nasty behavior towards humanity? Could lead? Who am I fooling...HAS led to such atrocities. And yes, it isn't all Christians that are directly involved in these crimes but a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible will always lead to behavior contrary to what many believe to be "good." This goes for such interpretations from Jewish or Muslim fundamentalists as well.
Can anyone honestly say that rape, murder, and adultery can be at all GOOD things? I know some of us will have shades of difference in what is good or evil, but c'mon...these are the biggies one would HOPE all people could get behind in terms of where they fall on the good-evil axis.
quote:And I SO hope God allows me to be present when He someday has a chat with Mr. Tom....
See, you may say that you want to be there to see the rapture and share in share in Tom's inevitable Joy of being with the supreme creator, but that's certainly not how it comes across. It smacks of you wanting to be there when Tom realizes he's wrong. If I said I hope there's enough of an afterlife to establish that Farmgirl was wrong about Christianity before she disappates into oblivion would you find that childlishly offensive?
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Playing God's Advocate, I would suggest that if you repent a second before the buzzer, God will know what you did and why you did it and the repentance would not have been genuine and probably not count.
Although I'm not sure if God requires legitimate repentance or just the ritual.
I think we can all agree it would be difficult, if not impossible to trick God as commonly defined.
It's not that I was particularly offended, nor that I think you are wrong for holding or expressing your beliefs. I just wanted to try to reach toward mutual understanding. I think that understanding the perceptions that others have of us and the things we say and do is very important. Not in order to change what we say and do, necessarily, just so that we can be fully aware of the impact of our actions.
---------------------------------
On something of a tangent, do you (or anyone else, for that matter) think that belief is a matter of choice?
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
One frigid early spring morning, a farmer goes out to repair the roof on his barn. He takes his ladder out and sets its base on a frozen solid pile of horse manure because he can easily climb up the manure pile and then the ladder to reach the roof.
He works on the roof and gets it completed by the end of the day, which has gotten much warmer as the sun came up. He starts to climb down the ladder, but because the manure pile has warmed up and thawed, the ladder falls over, sending the man crashing to the ground. The man breaks his arm and ends up sueing the ladder manufacturer over the accident.
The ladder had warning signs all over it about safe usage, including specifically that you should set it on a solid, stable surface.
Was it the ladder manufacturer's fault that the farmer didn't remember that the laws of physics dictate that the pile would thaw as the day warmed up?
(Sadly, this is a real story. A court did decide that the accident was the ladder manufacturer's fault for not being more specific.)
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posted
BTW, I'm on the record before as saying that I would be absolutely THRILLED to die and discover I was wrong, even if it meant an eternity of Hell. The idea of Hell as an eternity of selfishness and/or isolation from God scares me a lot more than a Hell of fire or brimstone, because at least the latter Hell comes with ANSWERS.
"He is saying 'Choose me -- Choose whether to live (according to His grace) or choose to die'"
And as I said before, this is pretty much letting the terrorists win, isn't it? Why does "convert or die" sound better coming from somebody invisible?
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Sopwith, your analogy is only accurate if the following is also true:
1) The ladder manufacturer also made the barn, and made it tall enough that ladders were necessary. 2) The ladder manufacturer put manure on the lawn. 3) The ladder manufacturer froze the manure. 4) The ladder manufacturer was standing behind the guy climbing the ladder, and saw him put the ladder on top of the manure. 5) The ladder manufacturer has power over the law of gravity, and could at any time have slowed or stopped the man's fall.
posted
Fil - can we question what methods God chooses to employ?
The rape and torture of someone might have been the test of his or her faith necessary. Which may not have been required of another person.
Certainly we view it as evil and without merit, but as God's design is unknowable and unfathomable, can we really condemn the act as evil and not part of God's plan that we simply have not been made aware of?
Disclaimer: I'd prefer not to believe that, but the story about the Devil's Advocate testing the saint puts the theory into vaguely plausible terms.
posted
Frankly, I’d rather be a fly on the wall when Tom and God figure out how to communicate with each other in this life. I think it will/would/could be an interesting conversation.
On another note, fil, I’m very curious why you used the term “a married man’s wife” (do unmarried men have wives?) rather than “a married woman.” Just curious, you understand.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
T, this smacks of "end justifies the means" again. that any act, even one that appears evil on the surface if done for some "greater plan" can mean a Good thing for all! So killing all the Jews in Germany, if done for a great plan, can be a good thing if we just commit to the vision. I don't beleive in moral absolutes as a rule, but by allowing any unspecified and unclear "master plan" be the excuse for atrocities towards humanity I tend to have concerns with people with fundamentalist backgrounds in positions of power and authority over others. Any war or act of torture or act of evil can be justified with some vague notion that in the end, all will be better. If that isn't frightening, I don't know what is.
quote: On another note, fil, I’m very curious why you used the term “a married man’s wife” (do unmarried men have wives?) rather than “a married woman.” Just curious, you understand.
Because I am redundant and repeat myself? That is just good ol' bad grammar!
posted
To put it another way, using the Steve Guttenberg vehicle "Short Circuit" as a touchstone of human experience: Christian fundamentalists are the kind of people who'd watch that film and root for Nova Robotics. Or does Number Five no longer have a right to live just because Dr. Marner had other uses for him?
If I would indeed not have life if God had not granted it to me, does that mean He has the unquestionable right to dictate terms under which I may exist?
quote:People who MAYBE are fundamentalist on here are responding defensively, which is reasonable because it must be horrible to be told by someone who doesn't believe what you believe that your ideas are wrong or dangerous. I can't possibly imagine what that would feel like in these enlightened times
Actually, until, as the one who took exception to Tom's remarks first, I can safely say that at that time it never crossed my mind that Tom would consider me a fundamentalist.
posted
Fil, you need to specify which "T" you mean.
But yes, welcome to the paradox.
Depending on your interpretation of the issues contained in this thread, you can justify almost atrocity ever committed as furthering God's grand design.
It doesn't mean the serial rapist or the mass murder is going to Heaven for fulfilling his role, but then nobody said it was fair, either.
posted
As this debate goes on, I become more and more aware that I'm better off using the word "fanatic" instead of the word "fundamentalist," even if it reaches fewer people. Because while there's a good deal of overlap, it's theoretically possible to be one without the other, and my working definition on the first page applies better to the former than the latter. Unfortunately, we've so abused the phrase "Islamic fundamentalist" that "Islamic fanatic" doesn't quite have the same resonance, even if it's more accurate.
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posted
This is what bothers me- It's the sort of person who is, say, a devout Muslim who has a daughter that talks to a man outside of the family then kills her or has her killed. Or the kind of person who is against abortion but believes it's ok to kill an abortion doctor. Extreme, yes, but it bothers me. These are acts of evil... there are so many instances of this in the bible that drive me insane. Instead they are brushed off.. But it's still WRONG. Ultimate evil is hurting another human being but it's done so many times... Not by people here, but by these.. extremists... It's what turns me away from religion in the first place. I try to find compassion and warm, but instead I get a wall of rules and laws that mean nothing.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Synth, once again I need to point out that Tom's original statement condemns a lot of people who think both of those acts would be terribly wrong.
posted
And condemns a lot of people who do NOT consider murdering the entire human race to be evil.
If I belong to a church that teaches witches should be burned, and somebody else in the church burns a witch according to instructions even though I personally never would, what kind of person am I if I don't reconsider my membership?
posted
There seems to be a lot of concern here about God killing people. Do those with these concerns dislike the death penalty? Or killing in self-defense?
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posted
I was thinking more along the lines of, "I'm okay with the whole armageddon thing, as long as you update your sense of architecture. I mean, gold basins and candles? What are we, 1200 B.C.E.? Come on now, Big Guy, work with me here."
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: If life has became a theoretical exercise since the outcome is pre-determined, why are we doing this?
I have to quote this again because it occurs to me that I missed the key part of this statement.
I don't personally believe that God has already decided who is going to Heaven or hell. I'm assuming that's what you mean by pre-determination.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I propose that there are certain situations where it is not wrong for man to kill man. Maybe it is because I am LDS. The Book of Mormon has a lot of war in it. It has situations where righteous people reluctantly go to war in order to preserve their rights and freedoms to worship.
As I do not think it is always wrong for man to kill, I think God certainly has a right to also.
quote:what kind of person am I if I don't reconsider my membership?
The problem with this is (or at least a problem with this is), we’re not talking about membership in an organization. There is, as has been pointed out, no “International Association of Fundamentalists.”
Some of us on this thread are members of particular Christian organizations, should we reconsider our membership in those organizations when members of other organizations, who also self identify as Christian, commit acts we disagree with? And if so, does that apply to other descriptors as well? Should I no longer call myself a feminist, since some feminists commit acts I find reprehensible?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
PSI, my point is that I can choose not to belong to a specific feminist organization because of their mission statement, but why should I choose not to be a feminist at all becasue of the mission statment of some organization that I'm not a member of, just becasue they also call themselves feminist?
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posted
*twitches a bit* I've heard peopel say that god will send people to hell for things like being gay or divorce or stealing... How is that right? In the Old Testiment God would smite people for the slightest crimes. Even if he is God, is it still right?
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posted
I don't believe that God "sends people to Hell" for various crimes. I think that we all have the same propensity for committing these types of crimes.
In the end, God says to choose him and live. The fatal "crime" is to fail to choose God.
My mother-in-law always says that there are a million ways to Christ, but that Christ is the only way to God. I don't know how that's relevant, I just like how it sounds. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I still don't understand that though... Sending people to hell for not being Christian... it doesn't seem right and moral and fair to me...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Since I believe that God is just, I believe that he had a good reason for his "smitings", and that there may have been reason beyond what was apparent in the text.
In fact, I am more likely to think that there is an error in what was written in the Old Testament than I am to think God kills people on a whim. I believe in a God that makes sense and is consistent with Himself.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Dana, I think a more important question is "should I reconsider my membership if my GOD does something I find reprehensible, like kill everyone on the planet?"
And if you DON'T find killing everyone on the planet to be reprehensible, maybe you should. (*points back to the "Short Circuit" analogy*)
What authority does God have that gives Him the right to kill me?
posted
The Short Circuit analogy is a non-starter, since the company is not the one who created Number 5's "soul," "consciousness," or whatever yo want to call his self.
It was a bolt of lightining, the ultimate act of God.
posted
Love. That's the only righteous authority anyone has. God's authority comes from love and omniscience.
That's why manipulation by those close to you is so evil - it's the twisting and making evil of what is incredibly good.
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