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Author Topic: Mrs. Powell is the Devil
katharina
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Given the nature of the coming forth of the book of mormon (an angel appears to Joseph Smith, shows him where the plates on which it was written are buried, Joseph Smith translates the plates with divine guidance), it's either exactly what it says it is or a complete fabrication. It came forth fully formed, so it wasn't shaped by the centuries. Not these centuries anyway - there was quite a bit of history going into them before they were buried.

Anyway, yes, the visit of Christ and the history of the people is literal in the broad strokes, or else the entire thing is one heck of a joke.

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beverly
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Fil, about Christ knowing ahead of time and being "no mere mortal", yes, it probably made dying a whole lot less scary. LDS doctrine teaches, though, that the real horror of the atonement was not the humiliation, the physical suffering and death, but the spiritual suffering He endured on top of it all that began in the Garden. He was literally suffering for the sins--spiritual Hell, for all of mankind. That is an inexpressible horror that we will never know. His only comfort was that it would have an end and that His suffering would benefit many, whom He loved.
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beverly
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quote:
Yeah, forget I mentioned it. It comes down to a differing opinion of The Book of Mormon, really. Something that isn't really reconcilable.
It is only irreconcilable in the fact that it can't be proved to a skeptic or disproved to a believer. Such things can still be discussed civilly and enjoyably in order for both parties to understand the other better. I am not trying to prove anything. I am just answering questions, and I shared an article with pertinent information.
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fugu13
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Beverly, those are definitional. Clearly if one believes one does not disbelieve, and if one is skeptical one does not believe.

However, plenty of people who have been classified as skeptics have become classified as believers, and plenty of people who have been classified as believers have become classified as skeptics. We have several of both on this board, including for the LDS church in particular.

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beverly
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Ah, so then the discussion isn't irreconcilable after all? I'm not sure what you are saying, fugu.

I figure BtL doesn't want to discuss it
a) out of a lack of interest
b) out of a fear of getting into an arguement
c) out of a fear that he might be wrong

I am one who tries to make "b" not such an issue by trying my best to explain and understand the other POV.

[ September 02, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]

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TomDavidson
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"things can still be discussed civilly and enjoyably in order for both parties to understand the other better."

Which is, of course, why I like discussing theology with Mormons. It's really Christianity with most of the rough edges (logically speaking) filed down.

What's really fun, though, is trying to discuss theology with a mixed group of mainstream Christians AND Mormons -- because they'll both gang up on you from two completely different and irreconcilable perspectives, based on premises not necessarily shared among groups and therefore demanding different arguments. [Smile] It's good practice.

----

bev, the discussion IS irreconcilable. It's just not necessarily unpleasant. What makes it occasionally difficult from the viewpoint of someone who isn't Christian is when one of the people you're arguing with believes in a literal Bible and an omnipotent God; another Christian believes in a metaphorical Bible and an omnipotent God; and another person believes in a literal Book of Mormon, a metaphorical Bible, and a non-omnipotent God. Arguments that address one such person fail to apply completely or at all to the beliefs of one of the others, meaning you have to work three times as hard. [Smile]

[ September 02, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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beverly
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quote:
What's really fun, though, is trying to discuss theology with a mixed group of mainstream Christians AND Mormons -- because they'll both gang up on you from two completely different and irreconcilable perspectives, based on premises not necessarily shared among groups and therefore demanding different arguments.
And hopefully they don't get too ticked off at us Mormons. [Angst]
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dkw
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:snort:

You're the wrong person to be using the angst smiley. Have you not figured out yet that Mormons are the majority religion here?

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Scott R
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Well, Tom, you chose to be an agnostic-- now deal with the consequences.

:huff:

[Smile]

And dkw-- I believe that bev's smiley represents the baby I ate last night, as a symbol of all those who oppose Pax Mormona.

[ September 02, 2004, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Scott R ]

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TomDavidson
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What I find particularly interesting is that, in conversations like these, Mormons and Lutherans and Catholics and Baptists wind up on the same "team," even though -- as we've seen on this thread -- they share almost none of the same underlying assumptions OR rationales behind their faith. It almost makes me wish there were agnostic schisms to take my side in debates. [Smile]

[ September 02, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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beverly
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quote:
Arguments that address one such person fail to apply completely or at all to the beliefs of one of the others, meaning you have to work three times as hard.
Yeah, I can sympathize with that. This discussion has been a prime example.

dkw: I never thought "angst" was a very good description for that smilie. He looks more... nervous to me. I am nervous about offending others.

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beverly
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quote:
It almost makes me wish there were agnostic schisms to take my side in debates.
You've got Trevor and twink. There are plenty of others, but most don't care enough to check threads like this. I'm sure you could drum up quite a good team, if'n they were willing.
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Bob the Lawyer
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Bev, largely (a) with a healthy smattering of (b). Not so much (c). And a fair amount of (d) where (d) is a lack of desire to engage in a discussion with a foregone conclusion. That being, we'll agree to disagree and be done with it. Sure there's a possibly for greater understanding, but I just don't feel like it right now [Wink]
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dkw
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Tom: you really see us all on the same "team"? That's frightening.
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MrSquicky
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Bah, it was an example. Christ told everyone to do this in memory of me. He said the first shall be last and the last shall be first. He said what you do to the least of people, you do to me. He said love is the highest law. He said if someone wrongs you, wish them and do them well.

If any of these teachings were respected in mainstream Christianity, the world would be a much different place. Christianity is a promise that has rarely been fulfilled. It't about safety or security. It's not about power. That's what the devil offered Jesus, and what he scorned.

The cup that Jesus drank, that he agonized over in Gethsemene, is there for us as well. When people make comments like "I'd like to be there when Tom meets God, so I can see how he feels about being so wrong." or "The reason to believe in God is so you go to heaven as opposed to hell." they're not only refusing the cup, they're spitting in it.

If you want to see people hurt, no matter how justified you might think this is, you are acting against Christ message. If you think being a Christian is supposed to bring you security and power, you're choosing the wrong side of the Jesus/Satan debate. If you think, like Peter, that the sword is necessary to protect your religion, you lack faith.

edit: I think christians are wonderful people who light up the world and help out selflessly. I'ts too bad that I know so very very few of them. I know a heck of a lot of CHRISTIANS though. Those guys, they're going to be the ones coming after me if our country ever takes a serious decline. Well, not really. Most of them won't be on the leading edge. They'll be holding their coats though and/or denying that anyone calling themselves Christians could be stoning people to death.

---

P.S. I gotta admit, I was shocked that this topic grew so quickly. I didn't think that a political topic not directly centered on either of the two candidates would tkae off so fast. I should have know it was about religion.

[ September 02, 2004, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]

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beverly
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I was thinking, I know that LDS are the largest religious group represented here, but I think another part of it is that some of us tend to be very vocal. There are many LDS posters here that don't care to participate, and many of other groups or non-groups tend not to be as vocal. I get that feeling with liberals and democrats on this board it seems like there are more democrats than republicans, but are there really, or are the democrats just more vocal? I don't know the answer.
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katharina
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quote:
It's just not necessarily unpleasant. What makes it occasionally difficult from the viewpoint of someone who isn't Christian is when one of the people you're arguing with believes in a literal Bible and an omnipotent God; another Christian believes in a metaphorical Bible and an omnipotent God; and another person believes in a literal Book of Mormon, a metaphorical Bible, and a non-omnipotent God. Arguments that address one such person fail to apply completely or at all to the beliefs of one of the others, meaning you have to work three times as hard.
I think you create the situation to play like other people do crossword puzzles.

I don't feel bad at all. [Smile]

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beverly
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BtL: OK [Smile]
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TomDavidson
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"I think you create the situation to play like other people do crossword puzzles."

Oh, I'm not COMPLAINING. In fact, I specifically said it was good practice. [Smile]

That said, I don't CREATE the situation; I'm just aware of the fact that any discussion of Christianity on this board will inevitably involve at least three mutually incompatible views of the religion, in the same way that any discussion of Islam will wind up involving, well, Amira.

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beverly
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quote:
Tom: you really see us all on the same "team"? That's frightening.
If that team is "Against Tom", then, yeah.
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dkw
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quote:
If that team is "Against Tom", then, yeah.
Good grief, I hope not. I'd quite posting altogether before I'd join that team.
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katharina
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I don't know anyone on that team. There was Baldar, but we killed him.
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MrSquicky
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dkw,
You don't see people as one the same team in these debates. That frightens me. For many people here (on both sides), how right you are has very little to do with what you say and much more about what side you play for.

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katharina
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Mr. Squicky, that you think people proclaim their heartfelt beliefs in order to curry favor with a side instead of because that is what they believe says more about you than it does about them.
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Scott R
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If you are not for Tom, you are against him.

Those who are not against Tom, are for him.

And I shall play the middle against both ends. . .

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dkw
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Mr. Squicky, the idea that there are only two sides in this discussion is ridiculous. Bev and I are starting from completely different world-views. They have some similarities (and some that are more similar in language than in substance), but they aren’t the same, and each of them also has similarities with Tom’s view that the other doesn’t share.
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TomDavidson
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*nods to dkw* There was a REASON I didn't name names, y'know. [Smile] I'm not about to start coming up with hypothetical rosters, even if you threatened me with alligators. *grin*
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Belle
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*threatens Tom with an alligator, just to see*
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dkw
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*threatens Tom with a crocodile*

Was that a nod to my most recent post, or the one before it? (edit: I mean the one two before it)

[ September 02, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]

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beverly
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If you are going to draw a line anywhere in a religious discussion, it makes sense to draw it between those that believe in a supreme being and those who don't. Tom happened to be the most vocal in this discussion of the later group. No need to assume that I think all those on one side of the line look at things the same way. "Those that believe in a supreme being" or even "Those who believe in Christ" are pretty broad categories just as are "athiests" and "agnostics".
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MrSquicky
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dkw,
I think it was PSI claimed to believe in what you did, despite belonging to a wildly different background. Unless you (meaning you specifically) are going into details, people here always claim agree with you, even though you and I know that they really don't. It's not about actual beliefs, it's about what team you're on. You're wearing the CHRISTIAN colors, so they know to root for you.

There is a deep divide between the CHRISTIAN and the ANTI-CHRISTIAN/ATHEIST teams, both in society and here on Hatrack. There are some people who don't play the religous team game, but many people do. For a lot of people, they've made up there mind before you even said anything, because of the label you wear.

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TomDavidson
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It was Farmgirl, IIRC. What's bizarre to me is that I think I'm probably closer to Dana's worldview than she is, even though they use the same names for wildly different concepts.
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fil
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Ah...the old "If you are anti-Christian you must be an athiest" or "If you are an athiest you are anti-Christian." I would argue there is more in common among fundamentalist christians than there is among athiests (most of whom aren't anti-Christian but ARE clearly supportive of separation of Church and State).

fil

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Dagonee
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quote:
There is a deep divide between the CHRISTIAN and the ANTI-CHRISTIAN/ATHEIST teams, both in society and here on Hatrack. There are some people who don't play the religous team game, but many people do. For a lot of people, they've made up there mind before you even said anything, because of the label you wear.
Well, this is certainly a nice easy way to categorize people on the basis of something you can't possibly know.

Dagonee

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TMedina
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Hark! Hath my name been invoked?

Since the answer is yes, (thanks Bev), I shall rejoin the conversation.

There are two teams, for all practical purposes - the believers and the non-believers.

The specifics of the believers will vary, but as long as there is an opposing team to present a unified front to, it doesn't matter. Once the non-believers go away, the true believers get to sort out which ones really are the True believers. And generally speaking, the sorting process isn't nearly as amicable as the discussion threads on HatCrack.

However, I don't think anyone here is interested in converting anyone else - I think we are all interested in knowledge and perhaps a dash of Truth. And from the question, thought and answer sessions we are so fond of, I think we all move closer to something. Understanding, perhaps.

And for the record Bev, most of the discussions on this thread have more or less mirrored our discussions about God, religion and any such meta-physical understanding of Life as we know it.

Why Tom likes to engage in the periodic showdown with Dag and other believers, I can't speculate. Maybe he's searching for the one bit of insight necessary to complete his incomplete understanding. Maybe he just likes to argue.

At any rate, yes - I can be found in the rosters of the non-believers. Barring any Divine Revelation that fits my requisite parameters, I don't see that changing any time soon.

-Trevor

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dkw
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Read closer, fil. This is more the “if you are a Christian you must be an anti-atheist.” (Which I guess in one sense is true, but a pretty limiting descriptor). Besides, plenty of Christians “ARE clearly supportive of separation of Church and State.”
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dkw
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quote:
There are two teams, for all practical purposes - the believers and the non-believers.
Turtle-twinkies. I don’t buy it.

Edit: And I'm offline for the rest of the day. Have fun, all.

[ September 02, 2004, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]

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TomDavidson
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"Why Tom likes to engage in the periodic showdown with Dag and other believers, I can't speculate. Maybe he's searching for the one bit of insight necessary to complete his incomplete understanding. Maybe he just likes to argue."

You missed out on the one crucial thread, about six months ago, that set me on this path. [Smile] I declared my intentions to become an evangelical agnostic, and convert people who're sure there either is or is not a God to being as wishy-washy as I am.

I'm bringing the message to the unwashed, y'know. *grin*

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TomDavidson
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Turtle-twinkies? *laugh*
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TMedina
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You don't think so, Dk?

What's the one unifying theme between all the people who post for the existence of God and/or Jesus Christ in some form or another.

The fact that they believe in God and/or Jesus Christ.

What's the one unifying theme of Tom, Twinky, myself and anyone who posts against religion, God and/or Jesus Christ?

The fact we don't believe.

If you can provide a better analysis, I'd love to hear it.

-Trevor

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katharina
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Tom: It's been going on longer than six months, and it's because you care. *twinkle* You care about religion. This kind of thing matters. This is all very encouraging, you know.

*dances out of the way*

[ September 02, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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TMedina
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Well shucks Tom - I was close.

-Trevor

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TomDavidson
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Well, actually, Trevor, you were completely right. I just stepped up my efforts a little while back. [Smile]
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dkw
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So the one unifying theme among people who agree on one thing is the one thing they agree on?

(Okay, now I’m really gone. I’m meeting friends from California for lunch. :happy dance: )

[ September 02, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]

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Dagonee
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There's a reason people of wildly different faiths seem to be on the same side in certain debates. It's pointless to argue about the proper meaning of Communion if you don't believe in Christ, and pointless to argue about Christ's position in the Trinity if you don't believe in a God that takes an active role in the universe, and pointless to argue about whether God takes an active role in the universe if you don't believe He exists.

So the farther down you are in that belief chain, the larger number of different faiths will agree on the generalities at a given level.

Dagonee

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TMedina
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Actually Kat, I'm more curious than caring.

I don't understand and it's something that maybe I should understand, but I don't. So I'm willing to listen, poke and nose around the subject while I have the time to spare to the subject.

So maybe I care about my curiosity, but since I don't know that I believe in God or an immortal Soul, I can't care about that.

-Trevor

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beverly
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Trevor, I think part of it is that Tom is an evangelical agnostic. He would like to convert others to the agnostic point of view. You seem more content to disagree and just understand the other side. Both make for interesting discussions, but Tom's tend to be a bit more... I can't think of a word for it. His points seem to take issue with other's beliefs more, I guess. "Attacking" may be too strong a word.

Edit: Sorry, started writing this before seeing many of the other responses

[ September 02, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]

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TomDavidson
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I'm just doing unto others. [Smile]
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TMedina
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Am I wrong, dkw? (I hope you enjoyed lunch, by the way. [Big Grin] )

All of the people posting in favor of the existence of God, et. all differ on the specifics, but they do agree on the fundamental idea that God does exist.

All the people posting nay all agree that God either doesn't exist or probably doesn't exist and our individual reasons will vary, but our disbelief in varying degrees is the one factor we have in common.

-Trevor

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TMedina
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Bev - confrontational? Aggressive? Interested in converting?

I find it amusing to think Tom may be doing the Lord's work by providing challenges to the faithful. [Big Grin]

-Trevor

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