It is amazing how quick other people are to pay for what they want with someone else's blood.
Did OSC join the armed forces? Are any of OSC's children in the military?
Dick Cheney avoided war and the military when he had a chance, and none of his direct relatives will be fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, I wonder if OSC was involved with the armed forces or any of his children are going to Iraq and Afghanistan.
Or are they willing to pay the price in other people's blood? (while supporting ten straight years of tax cuts for the wealthiest people in America.)
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And the war will have to go on how much longer to draw serious comparison to Vietnam? (Hint, 58,000 died in Vietnam).
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Think it over. You've got a connection to Odin-- I suggest a wicker man, or maybe a flying eagle sacrifice will prompt him to illuminate your befuddled mind.
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it's not even a personal attack, it is just a very personal issue.
notice how neither of Bush's two Armed Forces ripe aged daughters ARE not going to war to FIGHT for what their father believes in??
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I don't see any barbs.. He didn't use any name calling. He's telling the truth.. Most of the people who die in these wars are kids trying to get a bit of money for college. I hate this war. I hate how every week people die in it. I hate that waste of life and I wonder if there is a better way to handle it...
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We Americans have dominated, and continue to dominate other contries with our Economy and our Military, not our Wisdom and pure visualization of the future.
Those who swear by the sword should live by it to.
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He's right.... It's what always frustrates me about reading conservative books... They always seem to white wash over that... Bothers me... Silverblue, do you like Mike Malloy by any chance? *really likes that guy*
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Maybe Bush's daughters don't want to go to war? It just seems reasonable to me that they might have a tiny bit to do with it.
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I'm always amazed by people who never consider those of us that want there to be war.
Hey, we have an all volunteer army, duh. Those of us that join want to go out there and frag some @$$holes, sabe?
We fully accept the risk of becoming immortal in the process.
So tell me, how personal is this to you? You happen to have an "errant" friend or family member that believes there are some things worth more than the life of the organism?
You certainly don't seem to believe it yourself. But I'll hint you a hint. All your clinging to that wretched thing you call life won't save you from death in the end. I say this, but it is true.
We sign up witht the full understanding of what might happen. They even offer you a special death benefit when you sign. We hope to be the ones to die for what you call lies.
That is our truth.
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quote: Did OSC join the armed forces? Are any of OSC's children in the military?
Dick Cheney avoided war and the military when he had a chance, and none of his direct relatives will be fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, I wonder if OSC was involved with the armed forces or any of his children are going to Iraq and Afghanistan.
Or are they willing to pay the price in other people's blood? (while supporting ten straight years of tax cuts for the wealthiest people in America.)
These are the parts of Thor's post that I find objectionable.
You will note that he does not defend himself against the accusation that he is making a personal attack against our host. Cheney, I don't care about. I'm fickle like that.
Let's hypothetically give Thor and his ilk their fondest desire: We withdraw completely and immediately from Iraq.
Who comes to power next? Who has the weapons? Who has the money?
From what I've read of the peace-mongers, they'd sacrifice MORE Iraqi lives, and the hope of an independent, democratic, pro-western-ideology Iraqi state for nothing. That's more barbaric than I can imagine, to snatch hope away from these people who barely know what it tastes like.
WE CANNOT MORALLY WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ AT THIS TIME.
We CAN improve our relationship with Iraqis, however, but none of the peace-mongers I've heard are talking about that.
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Of course we can't withdrawn. The country has been turned upside down... Now it will hang over our heads for decades. War is like surgery. It must be done carefully. Every step must be carefully planned and thought of. It wasn't the case in this war and now people are suffering...
Are there any sources about Afghanistan today?
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There are things I'd die for, maybe not all the same things that today's boys are dying for, but I understand and respect their desire to fight for something.
I detest those that think we shouldn't fight for anything.
But hey, I'll be gone one way or the other soon enough, so why don't you all discreetly ignore the fact that I'm here? I'm just using you to keep my bloodlust high, after all.
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1) While people may of course choose to sacrifice their life for a cause, their sacrifice does not make the cause any more worthy. The cause ennobles the sacrifice, NOT the other way around.
2) Joining the military does not indicate your willingness to die for a cause; it indicates your willingness to kill for a cause. These are two distinct approaches.
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quote:We fully accept the risk of becoming immortal in the process.
When Jesus gave us two laws, they were not
Love God above all else, and win all government wars.
quote:So tell me, how personal is this to you?
America is my Father and Mother, Iraq is my Brother and Sister, and the world is my family.
How long does my mind go without thinking of the problems of all the world and the possible solutions against the current situation?
It is all personal to me.
quote: You happen to have an "errant" friend or family member that believes there are some things worth more than the life of the organism?
What does this even mean?
God is the Greatest. God is the Truth, The Light and The Power. The Only Giver of Life and Love.
...by standing against those who see only war on war as a solution I have no value for life?
I can dream of a better world where all men and women respect the right to life, love and family.
War is not the answer.
[QUOTEYou certainly don't seem to believe it yourself. But I'll hint you a hint. All your clinging to that wretched thing you call life won't save you from death in the end. I say this, but it is true.] [/QUOTE]
wretched /rech/ = miserable, pitiful
I fear not death, for I Know that Love is Stronger than the Stars in the Sky, Love will never Die.
I do not fear or question death, death is easier than life. Via Con Dios. When this body passes on, the next step will be in God's hands, and that I do not fear.
It is now that my life is in the world's hands, that is what I fear.
quote:They even offer you a special death benefit when you sign. We hope to be the ones to die for what you call lies.
That is our truth.
My Truth is
We are ALL the Children of God, God is the one who will Judge us with Justice.
God loves us All.
God provided us with enough materials and resources to feed all people, clothe all people, house all people and care for all people.
Until man reaches this enlightenment, All war will be False and Unjust.
Did OSC join the armed forces? Are any of OSC's children in the military?
Dick Cheney avoided war and the military when he had a chance, and none of his direct relatives will be fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, I wonder if OSC was involved with the armed forces or any of his children are going to Iraq and Afghanistan.
Or are they willing to pay the price in other people's blood? (while supporting ten straight years of tax cuts for the wealthiest people in America.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These are the parts of Thor's post that I find objectionable.
You will note that he does not defend himself against the accusation that he is making a personal attack against our host. Cheney, I don't care about. I'm fickle like that.
I am making a personal attack on the beliefs that Orson Scott Card has been selling to people in the newspapers, and the electronic media.
OSC makes many, many number of personal attacks on other Americans, Personal, Like Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, and he also makes general personal attacks against many people who are to the left of him, or live a life against the tight grains of his own personal choosing.
I acknowledge that OSC is a good man and a good father, but his social rants are attacks against other people.
quote:Let's hypothetically give Thor and his ilk their fondest desire: We withdraw completely and immediately from Iraq.
Thor and his ilk?
Who are my ilk?
My fondest desire is NOT to withdraw from Iraq, I agree that The Bush Regime has gotten us into the frying pan and the fire, so we can't stay and we can't get out.
MY DESIRE
is to clean and straighten OUR HOUSE here in America. Fix a broken system. Build ourselves a better world. And stabalize our future.
We must CLEAN democracy and CLEAN capitalism before we expect to conquer the world with it.
THAT is my desire.
The end of War.
1000 years of Peace.
quote:Who comes to power next? Who has the weapons? Who has the money?
Isn't that for the Iraqi people to decide? Or is that our choice because the U.S.A is King of the world?
quote: From what I've read of the peace-mongers, they'd sacrifice MORE Iraqi lives, and the hope of an independent, democratic, pro-western-ideology Iraqi state for nothing. That's more barbaric than I can imagine, to snatch hope away from these people who barely know what it tastes like.
Why did we take over power of Iraq in the first place?
Because they were going to kill us tomorrow.
Tomorrow came and iraq was not a threat.
Now their country is our state.
And I am a villian for being against the war at all times?
Bush and his Buddies are the Ones who came up with the idea for a
ROBUST NUCLEAR EARTH PENETRATOR
...not me
do you really think we need a R.N.E.P in this world? We are going to fight 500 men with new nukes? We are going to fight suicide bombers with new nukes?
Bush has said he is a War president, I hope to be a Prince of Peace.
quote:WE CANNOT MORALLY WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ AT THIS TIME.
Agreed. Did we have a moral plan to invade Iraq?
Did we have a plan at all??????
A) Take out Saddam. B) Secure all nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. C) Secure world's largest oil fields. D) Let freedom reign.
Imagine if China thought Bush was a raving madman, and decided to take him out, and put in a more Chinese friendly government because our ways were harmful to China and the Rest of the World.
Do you think we wouldn't be grabbing our guns and fighting to the last breath for OUR land????
I've said long before this war that the RISK game is over, countries cannot go around conquering new territories.
We went to war without much of a cry against it when Saddam invaded Quwait. Why because you cannot just charge into other peoples countries and take over. Our defense of Quwait was just.
Why did we take over control of Iraq?
quote: I detest those that think we shouldn't fight for anything.
Who thinks we shouldn't fight for anything??????
I believe we had no right to invade another country without solid proof that that is our last option.
Once again, Our attack on the Taliban was TOTALLY and absolutely justified!
Our reasons for invasion of Iraq have always been shaky and many times have changed.
..and now I ask for an answer as HOW to change the tone of the world from WAR and FEAR to LOVE and HONOR.
Bush seems to only have a plan to fight the war on terrorists, without a vision for how to heal the mind and soul of the world.
We talk of a pure love for Nationalizm, while we FORCE globalization.
That is wrong.
There is a disconnect of the people from government and corporations have taken their seat at the table.
I see no answers from the leaders we have ruling our planet, I only see problems compounding.
I pray this changes, but if it does not.
I know that when I die, God is Great, Fair and Just. And He loves me, and all of You.
quote:All your clinging to that wretched thing you call life won't save you from death in the end.
WS
Our military in Iraq is like a sponge, drawing our enemies out, sucking the poison from a snake bite. Better to do it in somebody else's back yard than in our own.
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You seem to be speaking for a large number of people in the service, but I remember the punks like you, who thought they were so cool...usually they were the first ones who broke in basic, who cried for the Drill Sargents...
You are not speaking for the military, you don't have the right to. If you want to go play Rambo, don't do it in front of those of us who have served Honorably. Or even better, keep doing it...you show how immature and clueless you are every time you open your mouth.
Fortunately the majority of the Armed Forces are sane, non psychopathic (or even better, wannabe psychos... ) professionals. Yes there is a death benefit, and promotions are easier in the field...but most soldiers are happy is they never come under fire, and the seasoned vets know that bravado doesn't impress anyone.
This brings it into focus It's like staring at the sun, You don't want to do it because you know it will hurt like hell. Facing the fact that 1,000 Americans, most of them, under the age of 40 sre dead... It's a waste, a waste of life. They should be alive, with their families... I really wish we'd evolve out of war. I'm an idealist, I admit it. But war breaks the threads that make up our society... *sigh*
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While you doves say you want peace for the "kids who just want money for college" keep in mind that those "kids" are voting Republican en mass. Wonder why...
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Our society is a flash in the pan anyway. Might as well duke it out with the baddies while we can. A well-aimed asteroid will turn us all into cockroach food soon enough.
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I'm actually ten years out of it. So I don't speak for today's crop of knaves. I already mentioned that, though.
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quote:Our military in Iraq is like a sponge, drawing our enemies out, sucking the poison from a snake bite.
Are you suggesting that Iraqi resistance fighters would be able to do more damage to America if there were not, in fact, any Americans in Iraq for them to kill?
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Ah. So your claim is that the people currently opposing the American occupation are the SAME people who'd otherwise be flying planes into buildings, and therefore we're succeeding in distracting them?
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I personally have to take a somewhat more nuanced position on this. See, I think that attacks on American soil are good for America. On the other hand, attacks that take place in distant lands tend to be bad for America.
My thought, therefore, is that if the "foreign fighters" came over here and killed civilians on American soil, that would be good for America.
Unfortunately, if we let them do that, the act of allowing it is bad for America.
So I'm willing to admit that there isn't some easy calculus to decide this sort of thing. But, foreign fighters killing American soldiers and innocent Muslims in Iraq is clearly good for Iraq. It is also good for American soldiers. So I'm on the side of keeping it up as long as it lasts.
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Well, why do we consider one a policeman and the other a soldier?
Soldiers are out there to kill and be killed. That's the deal. Police are out there to protect and not be killed (or beat up, or insulted).
If someone shoots one of our soldiers in time of war, then we recognize that this is what soldiers are there for and that's that.
If someone shoots one of our cops, we act like they machine gunned a schoolbus full of kids. Why? Because soldiers kill, and cops protect.
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By the way, when someone (not pointing fingers here) identifies himself as being on the board entirely for the purpose of dumping insanity for a limited period of time, does that count as being a troll?
I ask because one characteristic of a real troll is that the troll pretends to be a member of the group and inspire trust. So what is the person that is unabashedly contemptuous of the group, its common ideals, and its mores?
I think that I'm still a troll (here, at any rate), but perhaps I belong to a special subgroup of trolls.
By the way, I've never been banned from anywhere, so if someone feels like getting together a posse...
Although, if in the considered opinion of the respected members, that would be too much trouble for one such as myself, particularly given the recent bad feelings between the moderators and half the freaking forum, I will fully understand and will forego the honor...for now.
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Soldiers should be around to protect their people, their way of life and their country. Sometimes this must stretch to protect other people, other ways of life and other countries. Sometimes they are used to threaten, sometimes they are used to kill but it should always be for the purpose of protecting.
Obviously not every soldier thinks this way, but I admire all who do.
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