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Author Topic: Which drug users are our enemies?
Belle
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I understand, Sara, and I'm not trying to prove anything just point out there are a lot of costs not always considered when people discuss this issue.

As Dag said, it's not a cut and dry issue. My beef is with the people on the other side (pro-legalization) who only quote the savings from the penal system and never consider the other costs.

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Storm Saxon
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Sigh. Does no one read my posts?

quote:

As Dag said, it's not a cut and dry issue. My beef is with the people on the other side (pro-legalization) who only quote the savings from the penal system and never consider the other costs.

With a nod to Dag, I actually said this first.

And no one is saying that penalization represents the sole factor in legalizing drugs. You've been on the forum long enough to know how things work. Points are raised haphazardly. Very rarely is someone going to make a post that tries to be representative of ALL the factors involved in a discussion. I think it's unfair of you to shift the whole burden of proof on to one side now. It's unfair of you to continue to try and potray pro-legalization folks (ie, me [Smile] ) as being somehow disingenuous by not considering other costs. Particularly given my posts to you in this thread regarding the matter. If there are other costs that people haven't considered, continue to do as you have and bring up those points.

As to the posts that you've made already regarding financial costs, it is clear that it's going to be a bit before you approach anything like the costs of enforcing the drug laws as they currently exist. That is, in the tens of billions of dollars.

One point that I'd like to raise in regards to costs of drugs is that with criminalization of drugs as the sole way to prevent drugs, the effects of drugs aren't treated. That is, people become addicted to drugs, and they have no way to get help because they can't afford it. So, assuming the belief that drug use from legalization will triple is true, if most of the 1/3 of those users can't get help for their problem pre-legalization, and not lead productive lives, and ALL of the users can get help post-legalization, then that is a win for legalization, is it not?

[ September 21, 2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

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Belle
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Yes, enforcing the laws costs a lot, but I maintain that de-criminalizing drugs won't take out the criminal element. People will still resort to crime to get a hold of drugs if they cannot afford them, and my experience in the pharmaceutical industry leads me to believe that even a legal version of heroin is still going to be mighty expensive.

Once you consider the manufacturing cost, the warehousing, transport, and overall distribution of a Schedule II drug - there is a reason they cost so much. I have no doubt heroin would be even more expensive and even more of a regulatory nightmare than morphine.

Once they are addicted, and can't afford their nice safe legal version of heroin, they are going to have to come up with the money somehow.

So I am not convinced that if we legalized drugs we could automatically close down 1/3 to 1/2 of our prisons and lay off 1/3 of our police force. You may not be locking up dealers anymore, but I have no doubt you would still be locking up drug addicts, who have committed crimes related to their addiction.

As for additional costs that might not have been brought up:

We haven't even begun to consider the costs in the medical field in regards to managing the prescriptions. For those highly regulated drugs, you can't just hand someone a prescription with 12 refills for the year. They have to have new prescriptions each month (or whatever interval is approved) and they can't be phoned into pharmacies. Each one must be individually written, and taken to a pharmacist. That means each time a user needs a new script for his fix, some staff person has to pull his chart, check when the last script was written, take the chart to the doctor for his approval, get the script from the doc, call the person back and/or mail the script out to him. Most doctor's offices are already bogged down in paperwork because of insurance companies and HIPAA requirements and referrals and billing. These additional man-hours will have to be paid for, and the costs will be passed on to the public.

What about the additional cost of caring for addicts that develop health problems after long term use? Even if the drug supply is ostensibly “safer” once it’s legal, people are still going to have health problems from chronic use.

quote:
Long-term effects of heroin appear after repeated use for some period of time. Chronic users may develop collapsed veins, infection of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, and liver disease. Pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia, may result from the poor health condition of the abuser, as well as from heroin's depressing effects on respiration.
quote:
High doses of cocaine and/or prolonged use can trigger paranoia. Smoking crack cocaine can produce a particularly aggressive paranoid behavior in users. When addicted individuals stop using cocaine, they often become depressed. This also may lead to further cocaine use to alleviate depression. Prolonged cocaine snorting can result in ulceration of the mucous membrane of the nose and can damage the nasal septum enough to cause it to collapse. Cocaine-related deaths are often a result of cardiac arrest or seizures followed by respiratory arrest.

quote:
Methamphetamine causes increased heart rate and blood pressure and can cause irreversible damage to blood vessels in the brain, producing strokes. Other effects of methamphetamine include respiratory problems, irregular heartbeat, and extreme anorexia. Its use can result in cardiovascular collapse and death.
quote:
Effects on the Heart

One study has indicated that a user’s risk of heart attack more than quadruples in the first hour after smoking marijuana(8). The researchers suggest that such an effect might occur from marijuana’s effects on blood pressure and heart rate and reduced oxygen-carrying capacity of blood.

Effects on the Lungs

A study of 450 individuals found that people who smoke marijuana frequently but do not smoke tobacco have more health problems and miss more days of work than nonsmokers(9). Many of the extra sick days among the marijuana smokers in the study were for respiratory illnesses.

Even infrequent use can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, often accompanied by a heavy cough. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers do, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, a heightened risk of lung infections, and a greater tendency to obstructed airways(10). Smoking marijuana increases the likelihood of developing cancer of the head or neck, and the more marijuana smoked the greater the increase(11). A study comparing 173 cancer patients and 176 healthy individuals produced strong evidence that marijuana smoking doubled or tripled the risk of these cancers.

Marijuana use also has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens(12, 13). In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke(14). It also produces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their carcinogenic form—levels that may accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells(15). Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which increases the lungs’ exposure to carcinogenic smoke. These facts suggest that, puff for puff, smoking marijuana may increase the risk of cancer more than smoking tobacco.

Other Health Effects

Some of marijuana’s adverse health effects may occur because THC impairs the immune system’s ability to fight off infectious diseases and cancer. In laboratory experiments that exposed animal and human cells to THC or other marijuana ingredients, the normal disease-preventing reactions of many of the key types of immune cells were inhibited(16). In other studies, mice exposed to THC or related substances were more likely than unexposed mice to develop bacterial infections and tumors(17, 18).

The above quotes are from the National Institutes on Drug Abuse and were taken from http://www.nida.nih.gov
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Maccabeus
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Speaking of other costs...

I seem to remember reading about some of the prodrug advocates of the 60s changing their minds in the 70s when they realized that their increasingly addled supporters weren't voting anymore, swinging power toward the Republicans.

Nonrational behavior can be extremely costly.

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Storm Saxon
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Thanks for your thoughts, Belle. I'll try and educate myself a little more on the issue at some point.
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CStroman
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Just a side question. Can't a slight overdose of Morphine induce a coma?

Wasn't that a big deal during WWII. Give the GI enough to dull the pain, but too much will put him in a Morphine induced coma or kill him.

I really don't know, so I'm askin'.

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Chaeron
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Belle, did you read the two articles I provided? It sounds like you did not, and a number of the answers you are looking for are contained within.

Secondly, never quote DAWN statistics if you want to make a convincing argument. DAWN is very deceptive because it tracks "drug related hospital visits". This means every time someone is admitted to a hospital and an illegal drug is mentioned, even if it has nothing whatsoever to do with the reason for admission, DAWN ticks off another mark next to that drug. If someone is admitted to the hospital for alcohol poisoning, and they admit to also having smoked marijuana, DAWN will count it as a marijuna incident. If a person with cocaine in their system is struck by ligntning, and an autopsy shows the presence of the drug, DAWN counts it. Also, DAWN allows more than one drug to be listed. If someone is admitted for a heroin overdose, and marijuana is in their system, it's a mention for both. Interestingly enough, the number one reason for ER visits for both Heroin and Cocaine? Addicts voluntarily seeking detox.

Additionally, Belle, how do you figure drugs will remain close to their current price? What do you base this on? I have already provided sources which indicate just how extreme the markup on drugs is in the United States.

If you are interested in anything the anti-prohibitionists have to say, look up the statistics on the heroin maintenance programs in Switzerland, the Netherlands and other European nations. These programs provide heroin of regulated purity to addicts through the medical system. The program has been an unqualified success. The number of addicts have dropped, their average age has been steadily increasing, and the number of overdoses and health problems have dropped off the map. Additionally, many addicts, while still addicted, have been able to get their lives together and hold down jobs, and manage their lives. Heroin addicts are not natural criminals and hoplessly unemployable. The current policies of our government see to that.

Belle, even taking your dubious figures at face value, the totals are still under $1 billion. Federal drug enforcement costs alone are already over $20 billion. This says nothing of the costs at state and municipal level.

Another point I would like to make, is that we've seen the effects of prohibition and it's repeal already with alcohol. Why must we persist in making the same mistake again, and this time ensuring it drags out even longer?

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Chaeron
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Belle, the adverse health effects of illegal drugs are often overstated for political reasons. For instance, despite all that you quoted about the carcinogenic effects of marijuana, the lung cancer rate among those who smoke it exclusively and non-smokers is the same. There is no epidemiological evidence to support the assertion that it causes cancer.

My behavioral pharmacology prof, who is herself an addiction researcher, considers alcohol to be the most destructive drug, not because it is most prevalent, but because chronic abuse is the most destructive physiologically, and it's addictive potential is so powerful. Heroin is much less destructive when used chronically, with one exception: illegal heroin is highly adulterated. These adulterants are often toxic, and cause the vast majority of chronic health problems among addicts. Additionally, overdosing is so common because purity and potency are impossible for the addict to know. As I said before, the programs in europe have mostly eliminated the larger social and health problems associated with heroin.

<edited for grammar and a bit of a conclusion>

[ September 21, 2004, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Chaeron ]

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Chaeron
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Do I get the last word?

Looks like I killed another thread.

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Storm Saxon
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I'm glad it's someone else's turn. [Smile]
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Chaeron
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What I don't understand is what about my post ended the conversation? I'd like to think that my massive intellect and brilliant posts are too intimidating for people to respond, but alas, I don't have that kind of ego. I just think I'm being shunned.
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Mabus
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I don't think so, Chaeron, or my posts wouldn't end threads so often. I think sometimes people just lose interest. Also, sometimes I quit posting to think about an argument or look up information and forget the thread was there, so maybe other people do the same.

I've been on morphine, as it happens--nice pure hospital morphine. I did and said a lot of things I don't remember, and what I do remember was bad enough. I was vicious, rude, and disgusting. I know what's inside me; why in the world would I want to let it out? I won't even drink alcohol, partly for that reason. So I basically find it incomprehensible why anyone would want to take drugs (for the first time, anyway), and therefore what the point of legalizing them would be.

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Chaeron
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Mabus: I think you may have the burden of proof the wrong way around. While prohibition may be the status quo, It seems that the onus would still rest on those who wish to make something a crime to show that it should be, rather than the other way around.

It bothers me that people give statements like "I think drugs are nasty, why should they be legal?" in this kind of discussion. I try to give a strong case for legalization that is based on solid empirical data, moral claims about liberty, responsibility, etc. I never seem to change many minds, but no one seems to bother debating my points either. It's like there's some kind of dialectic paralysis when it comes to drug policy--things are the way they are and most people are unwilling to seriously examine if the current policy is a mistake.

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Katarain
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Chaeron,

Well, I was thinking "hear hear!" (Or is that Here here??) Whatever... I thought your arguments were impressive. I can't say you convinced me, though. I was already convinced.

Maybe people aren't responding because there is no good counter argument?

*sigh* I think this is a long-winded AOL-esque "me too!" post.

-Katarain

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Katarain
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Oh.. I have a question... is legalization generally a democratic or republican thing? Or a liberal or conservative thing? Or maybe none of the above... or maybe an even mix?

I'm generally conservative.. but I sometimes get the feeling that other legalization supporters are liberals.. is that true here?

I can't say that I'm particularly in favor of all drugs being legal... but I'd probably still vote for it. If I think people should have the right to do whatever they want (at LEAST in the privacy of their own homes) without infringing on others rights and be thinking of marijuana, then that thinking should apply to other drugs too. I'm okay with that.

Oh, and once I asked someone to provide me with just one instance of death caused by marijuana use that didn't involve driving. Curiously, I got no response.

-Katarain

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Chaeron
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I find that this issue has support across the political spectrum. That is why I posted the symposium from the National Review. I felt that the conservative voice for drug reform is often overlooked. It's too often dismissed as a pet cause of stinking hippes and drugged out communists.
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Danzig avoiding landmarks
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Civil disobedience? Prison rape is a serious problem in our society, and you expect people to voluntarily go there? Not acceptable; not happening. Anytime you buy for underage kids, drink/smoke underage, or use illegal drugs, you are practicing civil disobedience. Hey, the actions of the consenting individual affect society, and anytime you show personal sovereignty it plants a thought in someone's mind. Share your drugs; you never know when the person you smoked out ten years earlier will be the judge for your case and go easy on you and others. Remember, calling things immoral is what people do when they cannot currently force you to do as they wish. The public is one or more people besides yourself.

How does it help children to take away their parents from them because they like to wind back at the end of the day with a joint or a Vicodin rather than a beer? Neglect is already illegal for any reason. Keeping drugs illegal hurts children more than legalization would.

Placing one's own desires above the law makes one a hero. Society has no legitimate claim against the individual. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you because they have something to gain by it, or think they do.

Forced to watch commercials? Is someone holding a gun to your head? No? Then kindly do not compare your free choices to throwing me in jail for popping pills. (I ate mushrooms just last night. Think of the starving children that could have eaten them!) I disagree with lots of the messages popular culture sends as well, but I change the channel. That is not having morality forced upon me. Being sent to jail for eating the same Xanax and Adderall that are given to housewives and children everywhere is having morality forced upon me.

The consequences of my actions are that I get high for a length of time, anywhere from thirty minutes to sixteen or more hours depending on the drug I choose. If you would like my dollars to go to nicer people than they currently do, legalize drugs.

I honestly believe that LDS and Christians and the entire culture surrounding them is destructive to me and my friends. I feel the evidence backs me up. Most LDS and Christians are against drugs and gay marriage. No insistence that some are not power-hungry bullies makes up for the fact that most seem to feel that they have the right to interfere in the lives of non-consenting others.

I honestly believe that such social norms as no fault divorce, promiscuity, and a general attitude of refusing to deal with the consequences of actions (deadbeat parents, bankruptcy, scapegoating, etc) is harmful to the individual, families, and society. Too bad I cannot do anything to stop this, because if I tried to be an upstanding community figure the police would use the higher profile to arrest me, and people would claim that I would be a bad example because I use drugs, and drugs are bad because bad irresponsible people use them.

The most common illegal drugs, including crack, are not as bad for babies as the currently legal drug alcohol. If more mothers used crack rather than alcohol, birth defects would go down. Furthermore, as long as abortion is legal in this country worrying about damaged babies is pointless anyway. Focus on the big issues first. Neglect is already a crime.

If you are trying to keep drugs illegal, you may not be raping anyone directly but you are still putting people in prison for smoking a joint, shooting up, or whatever.

Society can get bent. It has done nothing for me or anyone who is not currently ruling a large portion of this or another country. Kings, priests, and their followers have been saying ever since they arose that society is more important than individuals. Sorry, but no. When society stops trying to put me in prison/kill me, perhaps we might talk. Why am I supposed to be helping a society that has stated repeatedly it does not want me or my kind? Am I missing something here? Society has lost me to drugs even if I decided to quit, because anything that would try to hurt me like that needs to be destroyed.

Society does not know what to do with people like me, because I (we?) do not want to quit, and you cannot stop us. Personal sovereignty trumps your right to indoctrinate your kids.

Drug stores, pharmacies, grocery stores, and specialty shops would distribute the drugs. They will use the same security measures that places selling alcohol and tobacco do. Insurance already pays for many recreational drugs, because people fake illnesses to get legal Xanax, Ritalin, and Oxycontin. On the other hand, to my knowledge alcohol and tobacco are not covered under any plan. Is there a large problem with theft to pay for beer and cigarettes? I see lots of bums, but not many people that desparate. Heroin is dirt cheap to make and one of the most "functional" drugs as long as the supply is constant. No one who can afford starting an addiction would be unable to pay to keep it up.

We need more drugs because alcohol is pretty boring, and tobacco sucks. They are also more deadly than marijuana, heroin, and cocaine.

Pushers? No one pushed it on me; I sought them out. I became a much more outgoing person since I started using illegal drugs. If you want to put me in prison, you are my enemy. If you want to eradicate drugs, you are my enemy.

Health issues regarding needles are a red herring. If drugs were legal, no one would shoot up. Heroin was originally available in cough syrup, just as codeine, hydrocodone, and DXM still are today. Same with damage to nasal passages; no reason not to bring back the original Coca-Cola or make cocaine-laced chewing gum. No one would use methamphetamine if amphetamine and cocaine were readily and cheaply available. The only reason it is so popular now is because it has an OTC precursor. Not that there is a whole lot of reason to trust government-funded research anyway. An entity charged with persecuting drugs and drug users is not going to be objective.

Yes, drugs can kill you, as can pretty much anything else you do, including drinking water. This is why information about drugs and how to use them as safely as is possible should be taught in our schools. I do not think there is anyone on either side who is unaware that drugs can cause health problems, and anyone who cares to search the Internet or ask a doctor can find more details about any specific drug.

Mabus, you were vicious, rude, and disgusting? On morphine? Well, not everyone is; I am usually a nicer person when I am high on pretty much anything. I think you or anyone else would be a very loving person on MDMA. Either way, the fact that you were mean to people is not an excuse to make drugs illegal for everyone. As for why people take drugs, mainly because they are awesome, by which I mean interesting and usually enjoyable. Why do you do whatever you do for fun?

[ September 24, 2004, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Danzig avoiding landmarks ]

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