posted
I recently came across a very well-done and pretty site (no doubt undertaken by the movie producers of the upcoming The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe) about the Chronicles of Narnia at narnia.com
I cruised around the site, seeing what they had to offer, and nowhere was there even one mention of the Christian undertones of the Narnia books. There was an "about C.S. Lewis" section, telling how he was influenced by stories that his Irish nanny told, and how he originally wrote The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe for a group of children who were sent to live with him during the battle of London, but not once did it mention his conversion to Christianity or the fact that he's known for writing anything other than Narnia books. I found this rather sad. Is it not good marketing to mention the fact that the story contains Christian influences or that the author was a noted Christian scholar?
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posted
Well, you wouldn't read the books as Christian propaganda, surely? I recognise that they are propaganda, but that's not why you read them - you read them because they are good stories. I don't see anything wrong with marketing that.
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posted
I've met people that were angry when they got into the series and realized that there were Christian themes and symbolism. I suppose they felt that they should have been "warned." It makes sense to include this in the description of the books because it was clearly CSL's intention that they be read with the symbolism etc.
However, if that is a site for the movie and the moviemakers are planning on yanking all the Christian undertones from the script, then I can understand why they would make SURE that they don't mention them. I don't know either way, but it's just a guess.
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posted
I read somewhere that Lewis's family was still very much involved to ensure the Christian themes remained in the filming. Is this wishful remembering on my part?
posted
Oh, I hope they don't yank them out. That would be a shame to ruin an author's work for the laughable purpose of not subjecting your audience to any religion.
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posted
Seeing as how every Disney story hinges on a massive act of self-sacrifice and redemption, they would be stupid to take the Christian themes from LW&W. But since they are riding the coattails of Harry Potter/LOTR and not The Passion, I figure they will stick with that. I can't imagine someone being offended by the Christian themes of LW&W, since it is pretty purely allegory. There isn't a part where the narrator comes out and explains that this is really a bible story, except maybe at the end of Prince Caspian I think Aslan tells Lucy that it is time for her to learn of him by another name in her own world.
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Ever since I first heard that they were going to make Narnia movies, I was afraid that they were going to remove the Christian themes from the stories. That seems more likely than ever now.
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posted
Did you know that Tolkein hated LW&W? He thought allegory was garbage.
Just a little trivia.
EDIT: They have the creationism scene from the Magician's Nephew in there as the citing for Aslan. Don't get more religious than that. Unless they stuck the ressurection scene in there.
EDIT EDIT: Hey... they do have the ressurection scene in there under Aslan's How.
[ September 30, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
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quote: Is this going to be a secularized Hollywood version or will C.S. Lewis’ Christian themes stay intact? It’s no secret that C.S. Lewis was an outspoken Christian and his faith was woven throughout everything he wrote. Narnia is no exception and much of the stories are allegorical in nature. Will Hollywood have its way and strip out Lewis’ spiritual messages? Not so, promises Douglas Gresham, co-producer and stepson of Lewis himself. A committed Christian, Gresham has vowed not to “change the words of the master.” Indeed, Walden Media itself has a track record of family-friendly films so it seems that the film will be in good hands. Many are concerned that Disney's influence will water down the Christian themes which run through the Narnia stories, but it's important to remember that Walden Media is ultimately in charge of the film, not Disney.
quote: I've met people that were angry when they got into the series and realized that there were Christian themes and symbolism. I suppose they felt that they should have been "warned."
This baffles me. It baffled me when I was not a christian, and it continues to baffle me now. Why on earth would anyone feel this way? I have read lots of different books that put forward lots of different views, opinions, philosophies, religions, etc. Either I agree, or I don't, and leave it at that. Why on earth should there be a warning label for christianity? If you come across it, and you don't like it, then leave it.
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posted
When I read this book as a child, I read it as a story, period. When I read it to my child, I noticed that it was an allegory. I still loved the story, and it was as exciting as when I read the series the first time, and had my best imaginary friend, Reepicheep, with me at all times. I still find Prince Caspian to be the single sexiest fantasy character I have ever read, and would marry hm in a New York minute if he came into being and asked me. (I would have a tough time choosing between him and Eddard Stark, though, to be honest)
What are the Christian issues people would have a problem with? The fact that there are good people and bad people, and that it is better for all of us if the good people get their way? The sacrifice-rise again part? There are many stories that have that as a theme, and not just from Christian lore.
I hope they remain true to the story, as it remains my favorite, along with the Arthurian legend, ever told.
[ October 02, 2004, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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posted
I think that if they decide to make them Christian allegory, the need to have a director who understands the Christian allegory and is committed enough to the Christian theology it's alluding to to make it work. Pretty much, I'm saying the director should be Christian. It's like when I see mormons in Hollywood movies--Mormons didn't write those parts, so Hollywood writers just played off of stereotypes they were familiar with. Stereotypes that aren't exactly correct. If LLW turns into a movie about Christian stereotypes, they should just cut out the allegory altogether. Because it still has the potential to be a good story without it.
I have issues with the Lewis estate because of a stage production of LWW put on at BYU last year. The play itself was horribly written, but it was the best published one available to the director (who ASKED the LE if he could write his own adaptation, and got a resounding no). BTW this play ignored the allegory in the book, which George brought back in with things like costume.
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posted
How can the Allegory be taken out with keeping the story? I simply don't see how that's possible, obviously you say it was done, so it has been, but how? Is it no longer Edmund who betrays Aslan? Does Aslan no longer die, or come back to life? Did Endmund do it based on the temptations and trickery from Jadis? If these elements were the same, I can't see how the allegory couldn't have survived.
posted
I'm sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread, but I wanted to throw this comment in:
I read the Narnia Chronicles over and over again in grade school. I think I read The Magician's Nephew seven times. The stories were magical to me, a part of my personal history and the foundation for stories and dreams that I made up.
When I was told later (early teens, I think) that the Narnia Chronicles are a Christian allegory, I was mildly horrified, and suddenly ceased to revel in their magic. Perhaps my reaction was wrong, and I wouldn't react with more than curiosity if I learned the same thing today...
I don't know if the website people should have completely avoided addressing the issue, but I do think it's a smart move not to bring a lot of attention to it. Because children of all different backgrounds, not just Christian, should be able to enjoy Narnia as a world written for them.
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posted
I am reading this book to my fifth grade class, and they are enthralled. They don't have a clue about the allegory, they just drink in the witch, the weapons, and the fighting. ha ha.
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posted
I read those stories first when I was nine or so, and they almost worked as intended. I believed Aslan and Narnia were real. I didn't get the Christian connection until it was pointed out to me much later, though. Maybe I was too literal-minded : Even when Aslan, at the end of Voyage of the Dawn Treader, says right out that "you must learn to know me in your own world, where I have a different name," (quoting from memory, probably got it wrong) I didn't get it.
So based on my own experience, it is very bad propaganda, being too subtle for its target audience. But that doesn't change Lewis's intention, which was to prepare children for believing in Christ.
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posted
I find it funny that I haven't heard of anyone who loved Card's Homecoming series being horrified upon learning the series was based on the Book of Mormon. Most reactions I've heard (including mine before I knew anything about the LDS church) were, "Huh. Interesting."
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quote:So based on my own experience, it is very bad propaganda, being too subtle for its target audience. But that doesn't change Lewis's intention, which was to prepare children for believing in Christ.
I think this is proof enought that the writing isn't propaganda. Propaganda instills people to action and is evident in its intentions.
What CS Lewis did by including the resurrection and other Christian themes was merely to teach Chrisitan principles in a new format. I don't think he intended to create a militia of young Christian zealots: if he had, he would have been a lot more overt about it.
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quote:Even when Aslan, at the end of Voyage of the Dawn Treader, says right out that "you must learn to know me in your own world, where I have a different name," (quoting from memory, probably got it wrong) I didn't get it.
*sigh* Thank you. That now makes sense. So that's what he meant.
I just figured that there's magic everywhere and that he, literally, had another name in this world, but was still a great big lion and I just hadn't been contacted yet.
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posted
I can't understand the fears of people who believe that anyone would be motivated to remove the allegory from Lewis' work -- if only because the allegory, in most cases, substitutes for plot. There are very few scenes in ANY of the books that could be removed for this reason without seriously impacting the novels; I can only think of three or four, and all of 'em are in A Horse and His Boy and The Last Battle, which are the suckiest books in the series, anyway.
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posted
Tom, having encountered many people who think the books are great "except for all the Christian stuff," and knowing Hollywood's ability to massively destroy the heart of adapted stories, I think any fears on that score are well justified, your correct analysis of the narrative structure notwithstanding.
quote:I find it funny that I haven't heard of anyone who loved Card's Homecoming series being horrified upon learning the series was based on the Book of Mormon. Most reactions I've heard (including mine before I knew anything about the LDS church) were, "Huh. Interesting."
I know people who stopped reading it because he had "snuck in" the Book of Mormon stuff.
posted
Actually, I've heard more of Mormons doing that than those who weren't Because they felt he was somehow committing blasphemy or plagiarism - but not for reasons of feeling they were being propagandaized.
quote:I find it funny that I haven't heard of anyone who loved Card's Homecoming series being horrified upon learning the series was based on the Book of Mormon. Most reactions I've heard (including mine before I knew anything about the LDS church) were, "Huh. Interesting."
Well, I wasn't horrified, exactly, but I wasn't pleased, either. I felt that Card had cheated by sneaking the stories of his faith through the back door of my liking for science fiction, so to speak.
quote:I just figured that there's magic everywhere and that he, literally, had another name in this world, but was still a great big lion and I just hadn't been contacted yet.
Heh, that was my impression too. Great minds, as they say.
quote:I think this is proof enought that the writing isn't propaganda. Propaganda instills people to action and is evident in its intentions.
No, it is proof that it is very subtle propaganda indeed. I am looking at the intention, which was to produce more good little Christians. You are looking at the effect, which was (as far as I can tell) nothing of the kind. You are also thinking of propaganda in the context of Goebbels and "The Triumph of the WIll," which indeed was pretty blatant. But I would suggest that the best propaganda is not obvious as such to its intended audience; consider this maths question from 30's Germany, for example :
quote:A lunatic asylum is to be built for 6 million Deutschmark. How many family houses at 15000 DM each could be built instead?
That's pretty obvious to you and me, but for a nine-year-old boy?
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quote: Because children of all different backgrounds, not just Christian, should be able to enjoy Narnia as a world written for them.
Umm... didn't you just say that YOU enjoyed them very much as a child, being totally oblivious to the christian imagery? Because that's really what it is... imagery and symbolism. It's not allegory of the same type as, say, Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress, where you pretty much have to already understand christianity in order to understand the books.
Yes, these books put alot of christian imagery into them, but if that doesn't suit your fancy, you can just as well pretend it wasn't there. I know that when I read them as a kid, I didn't care one bit (even with my mom pointing it all out to me). I was just enthralled with the stories, I wanted to visit Cair Paravel and hug Mr. Beaver. I still can't get my fingers around this "horrified" thing... There's something there that I'm not quite grasping.
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posted
There's always the option of not letting your children read books whose message you disagree with. Heaven knows I plan on doing that.
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quote:This baffles me. It baffled me when I was not a christian, and it continues to baffle me now. Why on earth would anyone feel this way? I have read lots of different books that put forward lots of different views, opinions, philosophies, religions, etc. Either I agree, or I don't, and leave it at that. Why on earth should there be a warning label for christianity? If you come across it, and you don't like it, then leave it.
Well, I felt pretty cheated when I realized that the Alvin Maker series was not a Pagan friendly alt-reality story, but a rewrite of Mormon mythology. In fact, its funny that OSC often points to "dishonesty" in storylines he does not like, because I really felt like I was being sold something by this series. When I found out what it was about, I got that slimy, used-car-salesman feeling. That being said, i really don't think of this as religious propaghanda on the part of OSC, just an allegoric re-telling of one of his heroes. And although my disappointment with the mythic source lessened my enjoyment of the series, I still enjoyed it.
quote:I find it funny that I haven't heard of anyone who loved Card's Homecoming series being horrified upon learning the series was based on the Book of Mormon.
However, somehow in my ignorance of LDS lore, I still realized this series had a very "mormony" quality to it, so it didn't bother me. Perhaps being aware of it, I didn't feel as though I was being "duped."
But with LW&W, the things that are xtian allegory are also archtypical themes in non-xtian writings, so it can be appreciated from a non-xtian standpoint.
In '77 a lot of xtians pointed out all the xtian themes of Star Wars, but it turned out Lucas had just read his Campbell and Jung.
Besides, Lewis, despite being a staunch xtian and apologeticist, wrote very pagan-friendly works, (Not unlike his Catholic friend, Tolkien, and not unlike someone else we all like to read, [as much as he might deny it.]) So, my concern with the movie is not that they might take out the xtian themes, (how could they?) but that they overdo them with a heavy hand. (Since apparently Hollywood IS open to religious propaghanda in movies-The Passion.)
Oh, and I read the Chronicles fully aware of the allegory and enjoyed them anyway. I was a kid, and didn't care about that.
quote: (Since apparently Hollywood IS open to religious propaghanda in movies-The Passion.)
You do realize that every single major hollywood studio turned DOWN distribution for this film, even after it was completed, right?
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posted
Funny. I read the Alvin Maker series, totally clueless about the Mormon aspect. It was after I read it that I landed here, realized OSC was Mormon, and learned that the series was Mormon-based. All I remember thinking was, "Cool."
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posted
I'm surprised you think Tolkien and Lewis are "pagan-friendly," since both view pagan myths as prefiguring and being fulfilled by the Gospel. I don't see how Alvin is any less Pagan-friendly than Lewis or Tolkien, since all three basically coopt paganism into Christianity, using different devices to convey the same message.
And it doesn't bother me a whole lot, but "xtian" does seem to violate one of the niceties of letting groups pick their own names.
quote:(Since apparently Hollywood IS open to religious propaghanda in movies-The Passion.)
Hollywood (yes, I realize that it is silly to refer to the city as a single entity, but I'm doing it anyway) did everything in it's powere to keep The Passion from happening. If Gibson hadn't bankrolled the entire project himself, it could never have happened.
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quote: Since apparently Hollywood IS open to religious propaghanda in movies-The Passion.
Hollywood was only "open" after the movie grossed so much money. They were fully prepared to laugh their butts off when Gibson's movie flopped. Then we see all the cheesy "religious" movies and series on TV after Passion came out, because they realized that it would sell. Too bad they were *still* wrong.
Think what you will of the movie, but all Gibson wanted to do was bear his testimony of what he believes in in the form he knew best. That element is curiously absent from the miniseries on Judas Iscariot or the Last Temptation of Christ, IMHO.
posted
My roommate and I were at the video store last night, and I was being funny by pointing every time we passed a new movie about a biblical figure and saying, "We heard that The Passion sold really well, so...." After the seventh or eighth movie about Judas or Mary or John, even I got sick of it.
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quote:I'm surprised you think Tolkien and Lewis are "pagan-friendly," since both view pagan myths as prefiguring and being fulfilled by the Gospel. I don't see how Alvin is any less Pagan-friendly than Lewis or Tolkien, since all three basically coopt paganism into Christianity, using different devices to convey the same message.
That is a fairly friendly view compared to the historically more frequent "Pagan! Kill!" attitude of Christian writers.
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quote:actually isnt x for the cross or Christ one of the symbols that appears in the catacombs?
Sort of. The X is the Greek letter Chi, which is half of the Christogram. The Christogram is Chi with a Rho (P) on top of it - those are the first 2 letters of Christ in Greek. It became common throughout Europe after Constantine I adopted it as his battle insignia and won the battle (I forget which one - it's been a long time since I took Early Christianity) that made him the emperor. The legend is that he had prophetic dream where he saw the Christogram in the sky and heard a voice telling him that he would conquer under that sign.
BTW, I'm Jewish and I love the Narnia books. I am not at all offended by the Christian themes and I cannot wait to read them with my future children.
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posted
Wow - I took medieval art, and I thought that the symbol Constantine saw was a cross. Huh- I guess I didn't pay very close attention.
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That would be a shame to ruin an author's work for the laughable purpose of not subjecting your audience to any religion.
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Because they felt he was somehow committing blasphemy or plagiarism ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
- but not for reasons of feeling they were being propagandaized.
